Krivonischenko's burns

[amashilu]

Many times I have read people's speculation -- sometimes they go right past speculation and just assume -- that Krivonischenko's leg burns came from him putting his leg in the fire to try to warm up, in a state of freeze and mental disorientation.

Of course, he was found lying near this small fire and that is probably why people automatically connect it to his burned leg.

I went back to his autopsy report and noted this:

There is a burn across the entire surface of the left anticnemion with a size of 31 x 10 cm ...... the lower third of the left shin is of a brown-black color with charred tissue and and bursting skin, then in the middle third and upper third the burn surface is bright red and light brown.

Anticnemion definition: The anatomical term for the shin or the anterior (front) part of the leg between the knee and the ankle.
• Origin: Derived from Greek, where anti- means "in front of" and knēmē means "shin" or "leg."
• Medical context: It often refers specifically to the region covering the front border of the tibia (shinbone).

This means that it was the front of Krivo's leg, the shin, that was burned, not the back, as would be expected if he had laid his leg in the fire. The 31-cm-long (that is over 12 inches) by 10-cm-wide (4 inches) burn was the worst in the lower third (3rd degree, charred and bursting) and from then up to the knee, it was 2nd and/or 1st degree.

I'm trying to imagine how he would put his shin in the fire, and not the back of the leg. No burns on the back of the leg were noted at autopsy.

The other leg was not burned.

The fire was quite small and burned itself out within 90 minutes, not for lack of fuel, which was lying nearby, but from not being tended to. It doesn't make sense that Krivonischenko needed the fire so much that he would lay one leg in it, but he wouldn't tend it and keep it going. And how would he lay one leg in it anyway? Lie down on his stomach and move one leg over so his shin was in the fire?

Because I give a lot of credit to these hikers' intelligence, skill, and experience, and because Krivonischenko's burn was on the shin of his leg, not the back side, I don't see a way forward for the belief that he laid his leg in the fire.

So what else could have happened to burn his shin so badly? What are some other ideas?

In a YouTube interview, Eduard Tempalov suggests that Krivonischenko was tortured by fire, causing him to bite his finger skin off, but he didn't spit it out or swallow it because right after this, he was hit on the head and died. That one does make me wonder, yeah, why didn't he spit out or swallow the piece of skin?



 (at 5:45)

I also want to talk about the injuries to his hands, but will leave that for another thread.

[GlennM]

Can we rule out his pant leg catching fire? If his ski pants had any synthetic material like nylon, it melts and retains blistering  heat a very long time. I can imagine the hot stove producing such a burn. How he would position himself to get burned is a puzzle.

[amashilu]

Can we rule out his pant leg catching fire? If his ski pants had any synthetic material like nylon, it melts and retains blistering  heat a very long time. I can imagine the hot stove producing such a burn. How he would position himself to get burned is a puzzle.

Yes, it could have happened at the tent or anywhere else. He ended up at the cedar not because the fire is there, but because his body was moved there and positioned next to Doroschenko after death.

[Ziljoe]

I think the reference to sticking a limb into a fire means a number of things, holding it closely to the fire , above or around the flame. The problem is sensation from frozen nerves , he has well established frostbite that comes from being alive during the heat loss.

The shin burn is a positional radiant‑heat injury from being very close to a small fire, consistent with sitting upright or lying back with the shin raised. 
The sliding epidermis on one buttock/thigh is a cold‑pressure‑friction injury, meaning that area alone was exposed to colder conditions — either due to trouser displacement or prolonged contact with frozen ground.

Wetness to his lower clothing may have aided in blistering but it seemed to go past this suggesting no sensation of unconscious.

We can see a resemblance to his body position of his body when found. The sliding epidermis on his left buttock was something I didn't understand but we have his left leg exposed and this all means he was alive for it to happen, his left leg being exposed and the matching frostbite to his buttock seems to match his right side not being exposed.

Interestingly Glenn mentioned the trousers and melting. It could be the very reason to remove the trousers. The burns tell a story of the lower part of  limb being coldest to radiant heat and the higher up part was further away. Think of having a piece of bread toasted at a fire but at an angle , the bread will toast unevenly, burning at the closest part and being less effected on the slope at the top end.

This implies radiant heat burns at an angle, not by hot coals, flame , metal, contact etc.

[amashilu]

Ziljoe writes:
I think the reference to sticking a limb into a fire means a number of things, holding it closely to the fire , above or around the flame.
The shin burn is ... consistent with sitting upright or lying back with the shin raised.

Hmmmmm ... I am trying to imagine someone "holding one shin closely to the fire, above or around a flame," or "sitting upright or lying back with one shin raised over a fire."

I don't know, your imagination must be more acrobatic than mine.

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe writes:
I think the reference to sticking a limb into a fire means a number of things, holding it closely to the fire , above or around the flame.
The shin burn is ... consistent with sitting upright or lying back with the shin raised.

Hmmmmm ... I am trying to imagine someone "holding one shin closely to the fire, above or around a flame," or "sitting upright or lying back with one shin raised over a fire."

I don't know, your imagination must be more acrobatic than mine.

My bad description amashilu. It's totally my fault and not yours.

When I say shin raised , I mean raised and bent at the knee . Like an A. I shall make you a highly detailed diagram ,O is the head, then the torso then the thigh going up , knee , then the shin going down, then the foot then the fire. The lower part of the shin is closest to the radiant heat and the burns are less higher up because of the angle . It's radiant heat as the medial and lateral are not recorded as burnt. There's no wrapping of burns around the limb.

O___/\_🔥

Interesting that we have maybe got a bit of an order to the removing of the trousers!

[GlennM]

I alternately was imagining him in a crouched squat face above klees facing the fire. Several people could get near the fire in a small circle . Then, if for some reason he lost balance and fell face forward across the fire and had to be pulled free, with one leg into fire pit burned , the other not. If his pant leg caught fire there we have it.

[Ziljoe]

Yes, I've thought of multiple scenarios too. A quick in and out .. now that I've looked in a bit more detail I think it's a long slow burn because of the grading of the burn and the area. Frostbite is established so feeling will be diminished, that kind of works . I have also thought he might be sitting up right , left forearm on knee and hand hanging down. Left buttock on snow or melting snow.

Having looked at the autopsy photos , his actual final position resembles a possibility of him being in that basic pose next to fire.

All food for thought but I don't think it's contact burns.