Decision to leave the tent

[Star man]

I admire how you're trying to make sense of it all, but I don't think they would have left without footwear and coats etc. if they had a choice.  Why would they leave a turned off flashlight on top of the tent - why not just leave it in the tent?  I'm more inclined to agree with Starman that the tent was never pitched on the slope.

Agree.  It wzs never there so they could not have left it.

Regards
Star man

[Mark II]

“Never at the tent” and staging is the most illogical thing I have heard about DPI. Staging means somebody devised an elaborate plan to cover up, planting a tent in plain sight that really doesn’t make sense. The worst attempt at staging in history.

[RidgeWatcher]

My big problem with the Dyatlov Hikers ever reaching Dyatlov Pass is that Nurse Solter kept repeating how filthy they were, how filthy and so on. I lived in Alaska for a long time and you don't really get dirty in the snow. You do, however, get very dirty in the mud, closer to the rivers and the water that is flowing even in the winter. Something happened to them closer to where they could get dirty. I agree with Gorojan most possibly Settlement 41, where they still went into falling down log houses where there would be mud when they were looking for wood to burn, or somewhere nearby. Once they would be in the Auspiya Valley along the river skiing just to the south of Dyatlov Pass there was too much fresh snow with hard packed snow underneath to get very filthy. There aremsome events in your life you just don't ever forget and I believe Nurse Solter on those issues she won't budge on and she is very firm in remembering.

[Star man]

My big problem with the Dyatlov Hikers ever reaching Dyatlov Pass is that Nurse Solter kept repeating how filthy they were, how filthy and so on. I lived in Alaska for a long time and you don't really get dirty in the snow. You do, however, get very dirty in the mud, closer to the rivers and the water that is flowing even in the winter. Something happened to them closer to where they could get dirty. I agree with Gorojan most possibly Settlement 41, where they still went into falling down log houses where there would be mud when they were looking for wood to burn, or somewhere nearby. Once they would be in the Auspiya Valley along the river skiing just to the south of Dyatlov Pass there was too much fresh snow with hard packed snow underneath to get very filthy. There aremsome events in your life you just don't ever forget and I believe Nurse Solter on those issues she won't budge on and she is very firm in remembering.

I think its possible the dirt and grime was the result of an explosion that generated alot of smoke.  It explains the injuries, the burns, the dirt and grime, Yuri D's grey foam from the lungs, the fact that some of them did not die of hypothermia even though they did not appear to have significant injuries, and why it would need to be covered up?

Regards

Star man

[sarapuk]

I admire how you're trying to make sense of it all, but I don't think they would have left without footwear and coats etc. if they had a choice.  Why would they leave a turned off flashlight on top of the tent - why not just leave it in the tent?  I'm more inclined to agree with Starman that the tent was never pitched on the slope.

They were dressed adequately for a search down to the trees. Their main danger was getting wet from sweat or rain.  Dry cold was their normal environment.  They new the difference and the danger.  They all had layers of clothing both cotton and wool.  The flashlight was off to save it's battery. The furthest one from the tent was on.  The first person back would then put the tent light on.  The flashlights were placed to show a route back up to the tent.  It was on top of the tent because they had to put snow on the tent to weigh it down in case the wind got under it and it acted like a boat sail.  I suspect that Dyatlov as leader was following a set plan that existed in their training for a missing hiker.  If it was possible to find their training manual it might be in that and explain a lot.

They were not adequately dressed for a walk of about a mile with temperature around minus 20 degrees centigrade.

This guy did it in socks.

Good looking Socks. It takes 15 to 20 minutes to walk 1 mile at a moderate pace. That video lasted about 12 minutes  !  ?  Also it didnt show what clothing he was wearing. Also it was in the daytime so wouldnt have been as cold as at night. And he was doing it as an experiment which is not quite the same as the situation that the Dyatlov Group found themselves in.

[sarapuk]

I admire how you're trying to make sense of it all, but I don't think they would have left without footwear and coats etc. if they had a choice.  Why would they leave a turned off flashlight on top of the tent - why not just leave it in the tent?  I'm more inclined to agree with Starman that the tent was never pitched on the slope.

They were dressed adequately for a search down to the trees. Their main danger was getting wet from sweat or rain.  Dry cold was their normal environment.  They new the difference and the danger.  They all had layers of clothing both cotton and wool.  The flashlight was off to save it's battery. The furthest one from the tent was on.  The first person back would then put the tent light on.  The flashlights were placed to show a route back up to the tent.  It was on top of the tent because they had to put snow on the tent to weigh it down in case the wind got under it and it acted like a boat sail.  I suspect that Dyatlov as leader was following a set plan that existed in their training for a missing hiker.  If it was possible to find their training manual it might be in that and explain a lot.

While I agree with some of this, I find it odd that you think the better explanation is that there was some sort of search party, perhaps for the two Yuris, which would mean that they would certainly keep at least two (probably more) people in the tent at all times to make sure there were no issues with it, as had in fact occurred the previous night or two under much better weather conditions and with the use of the stove to heat it.  To me, the obviously best explanation is that the tent was no longer viable structurally and was about to collapse, be torn apart by winds, or whatever (a simple, inexpensive recreation would likely provide this information).  And if they had wanted fire wood they would have done that during daylight, and could have simply set up the tent by the trees in the first place.  The plan supposedly was not to use the stove that night due to the work required, and if they had sent out two or three to get fire wood and bring it back, there should be evidence of that, such as the stove being fully or partially assembled.  Instead, there is a robust fire started in the tree area, and nowhere else.

They couldn't assemble and light the stove until everyone was in the tent and settled because of space and risk.
It's a good theory.  So they all go to the forest for shelter and make dens which collapse killing and injuring some of them and 3 try to make it back up to the tent.  Yes.  Plausible.  and no Yeti's...anywhere 
But why leave the furthest flashlight on if they weren't thinking of returning. ?

Its not plausible. The area where the Den was could not have had such an amount of snow that could have collapsed and killed them. And some of the injuries were not caused by a fall or predation by animlas or bacteria or decomposition.

[sarapuk]

“Never at the tent” and staging is the most illogical thing I have heard about DPI. Staging means somebody devised an elaborate plan to cover up, planting a tent in plain sight that really doesn’t make sense. The worst attempt at staging in history.

Yes it would have been the worst staging event possible. And of course it wasnt a staged event at all. They set the Tent up and something happened to make them leave the tent the way that they did.

[DAXXY]

You can see the subsidence at the den above the searchers heads. There is a depression where the snow beneath has collapsed.  This is the danger with snow dens.  they are dangerous, snow trench is better and safer.   Snow dens are for above the tree line and in the right kind of packed snow.  Not at the bottom of a large hill of snow.  Making a den at the bottom you are effectively digging a big cavity in to a spot where the most pressure is from the snow above.  I think this was just the den the Yuris made and the others made another where their bodies were found. Both dens collapsed.  The Yuris weren't in theirs when it did but they had prepared the floor and put their clothes in. Snow is heavy it capsizes fishing boats if too much forms on the superstructure.  Plus there is the crushing and trapping effect, suffocation and simply not being able to move in to a position where you can attempt to dig yourself free.

[sarapuk]

My big problem with the Dyatlov Hikers ever reaching Dyatlov Pass is that Nurse Solter kept repeating how filthy they were, how filthy and so on. I lived in Alaska for a long time and you don't really get dirty in the snow. You do, however, get very dirty in the mud, closer to the rivers and the water that is flowing even in the winter. Something happened to them closer to where they could get dirty. I agree with Gorojan most possibly Settlement 41, where they still went into falling down log houses where there would be mud when they were looking for wood to burn, or somewhere nearby. Once they would be in the Auspiya Valley along the river skiing just to the south of Dyatlov Pass there was too much fresh snow with hard packed snow underneath to get very filthy. There aremsome events in your life you just don't ever forget and I believe Nurse Solter on those issues she won't budge on and she is very firm in remembering.

Well thats a fair thing to say. But I also think that that Nurse is given to much credibility. She isnt what could be described as a reliable witness. And also may have exagerated the dirty ness, maybe not intentionally. And the bodies did need to be removed via military transportation means, which can be dirty.

[Jean Daniel Reuss]

Reply #92

My big problem with the Dyatlov Hikers ever reaching Dyatlov Pass is that Nurse Solter kept repeating how filthy they were, how filthy and so on...
..................
There aremsome events in your life you just don't ever forget and I believe Nurse Solter on those issues she won't budge on and she is very firm in remembering.

Here is an overview of another interpretation or working hypothesis that could be developed in 4 stages.

•• Part 1 ••

We have all read with excitement and eager anticipation Tedddy's recent hints :

Teddy : New Book on Dyatlov Pass Coming Up =>  December 18, 2020, 10:17:29 AM
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=756.msg11528#msg11528

«...For what happened next you need to read some documents that you haven't seen before and use your judgment....»

«...You need to read it and make sense. I can not make it easier for you. ...»

«...For example a key piece of information is in this article....»

And this article, (with the indication of 4 other links), is :

  Interview with former nurse in N-240 Ivdel 1959.Pelageya Solter P. I. and V. Konstantinovich on Dyatlov case 04-05 July 2008.
https://dyatlovpass.com/interview-solter?rbid=18461

•• Part 2 ••

«...Solter kept repeating how filthy they were....»
 
Perhaps this is a decent way to make readers understand that the contents of the intestines have been transferred to the inside of the panties.
Was this a common way of politely speaking from Russian health professionals ? I do not know, but it is not unlikely.

In some posts WAB points out that natural infasons can or could cause ASC = altered state of consciousness. 
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=116.0           (from Reply #2 to Reply #80)

I also learned that artificial infrasound of high intensity would cause malfunctioning and even destruction of internal organs (through some kind of resonances both neurological and mechanical at certain frequencies (for example between 3 Hz and 10 Hz).

•• Part 3 ••

I am taking up this infrasound lead again, but now with a powerful generator.

 WAB refers to Vladimir Gavreau's military research - under the name of W. Gavro(France)
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=116.msg410#msg410        (Reply #2)
See :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Gavreau

Since the French military was interested in infrasound weapons in the 1960s :
Then in 1959, it is almost certain, that Soviet engineers and scientists - who were actively working in all fields of physics in search of new weapons (because of the USSR-US Cold War) - possessed at least prototypes of much more advanced infrasound generators.

Indeed, at least theoretically, infrasound weapons are very promising, in particular because of their penetration properties of tank armour and are therefore in some respects comparable to neutron bombs.

Unfortunately, we will not have the opinion of WAB on this line of research...
WAB : Introductions => I say goodbye, November 29, 2020, 03:20:04
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=746.msg11265#msg11265

Dear friends, it's time say goodbye. I will not write anything on this forum anymore, so I want to wish you success in studying this...case...

•• Part 4 ••

The involuntary presence of a test of a top-secret infrasound weapon near the hikers would explain all the known facts.
In summary :

 a) •  One of the first heavy Mil Mi-6 helicopters had deposited a powerful infrasound generator on the summit of the Kholat Syakhl on the morning of 1 February. The whole region after the small storm of 31 January seemed to be absolutely deserted.

 b) •  As Dyatlov's group did not appear on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl until February 1st around 4 PM, the test team did not immediately notice the presence of the tent which was being set up 800 metres from the summit.
The infrasound generator was therefore switched on on February 1st at around 8 PM (with significant effects on the hikers) and was switched off when the test team saw the fire at the foot of the cedar tree at around 10.30 PM.

This was a big mistake that can be explained by the need for secrecy, which had hindered the test team from getting information from the UPI Route Commission.

To be really effective a new weapon must remain secret so that the enemy (in this case the USA) cannot prepare countermeasures.

Thus, according to the ideas of Per Inge Oestmoen, at about 11.30 PM the order arrived from Moscow: "There must be no living witnesses left"...

 c) •  Then all the details, apparently incoherent, can be explained. For example :

The 2 extra corpses (1 guy + 1 girl) that had been seen near the tent on February 25th by the pilot of the Yak 12A, Georgiy Karpushin, were brought discreetly to the Ivdel morgue at the beginning of March, where they were prepared by Solter who counted in total 11 corpses.

[eurocentric]

My big problem with the Dyatlov Hikers ever reaching Dyatlov Pass is that Nurse Solter kept repeating how filthy they were, how filthy and so on. I lived in Alaska for a long time and you don't really get dirty in the snow. You do, however, get very dirty in the mud, closer to the rivers and the water that is flowing even in the winter. Something happened to them closer to where they could get dirty. I agree with Gorojan most possibly Settlement 41, where they still went into falling down log houses where there would be mud when they were looking for wood to burn, or somewhere nearby. Once they would be in the Auspiya Valley along the river skiing just to the south of Dyatlov Pass there was too much fresh snow with hard packed snow underneath to get very filthy. There aremsome events in your life you just don't ever forget and I believe Nurse Solter on those issues she won't budge on and she is very firm in remembering.

One theory I considered, given the old mining settlement had been abandoned in 1952, and not knowing why, or what had been mined there, was had they come into contact with radioactive mud/tailings along the river, or otherwise become contaminated while staying at the only habitable hut with intact windows. The other hiking group setting off before them went a different route and romped ahead to Mount Otorten.

This was where Yuri Yudin, who collected mineral samples and declared the area full of lime rocks, limestones, found an old core sample and took it back with him to the university. He, a young and fit hiker, suddenly developed an inflammatory problem with his knee, like an old man, after staying there overnight, this following an easy trek there, their backpacks carried by the horse and cart.

Lyuda's diary mentions how they were woken by two early lark's conversation, Yuri K and Aleksander. These were the two whose clothing was found to be radioactive, and it's assumed this happened through their previous employment at nuclear sites, but equally they may have been out to explore, with different hikers receiving different exposure levels.

There's no signs of deep mining there from photographs, no colliery, although the settlement may have been some distance from the mine itself. It may have been the much more common open cast (surface) mining, or solution mining, with tailings and contaminated water, often discharged then into rivers, and in 1959 nobody would be bothered about the environment or adequately cordon off the area.

Today there's contaminated mud around nuclear sites the world over, and old mines which present similar problems. Example: https://www.fse.org.za/index.php/mining/item/215-residents-use-radioactive-mud-as-an-acne-cure

Had this particular mine been for uranium ore, perhaps as part of the Cold War effort, or exposed some, it may have led to lung cancers and other health issues with workers and was eventually abandoned. Radon gas, in the long-term, can cause similar issues. The hikers would then become contaminated by staying there and travelling through, and several days later display signs of radiation sickness - exhaustion, confusion, and ultimately, where there'd been direct contact, burns. This would then have explained the rescue team arriving with geiger counters and mine sweeping, if say a message about 'checking for radiation as they may have travelled through that mining area' was misconstrued.

However, I went through the photo's and could see no signs of river mud on their clothing during the entire hike. But it's easy to imagine Yuri Yudin kneeling down when hunting for samples, affecting his knee, or Yuri K getting his trouser leg dirty, which days later turns into an itch, redness, and then continuing tissue decay even after death. His burns radiated from his knee down, getting progressively worse towards his toe.

In this theory, and linking to pathology nurse Solter's interview, their shoes would be the most contaminated items, remaining that way through skiing, so would be decontaminated as part of a cover-up, potentially explaining why so many were without footwear, and then depending on what witness statement you read, their shoes being found lined up down one side of the tent, and two pairs left in the middle - if they couldn't fully determine which removed shoes belonged to which dead hiker they wouldn't risk putting them back on the corpses.

[Manti]

They are in layers of wool socks which keep them warm even if they are wet.

I would encourage anyone who thinks even 5 or 6 layers of wool socks keep them warm in snow in negative 15C or less to try it out. I have just checked the weather in Vizhay, it's -37C right now, and that's at the foot of the mountain range.

Of course socks will not be the biggest problem but areas of exposed skin, some of them were without gloves, scarves or hats. And also places like where the socks meet the pants and snow gets stuck and then melts due to body heat. This is very unpleasant and even happens with modern gear let alone what they had.


But also it makes no sense to collapse the tent before they could take all the flashlights they had, all the warm clothing, coats, hats etc.

[Manti]

One theory I considered, given the old mining settlement had been abandoned in 1952, and not knowing why, or what had been mined there, was had they come into contact with radioactive mud/tailings along the river, or otherwise become contaminated while staying at the only habitable hut with intact windows. The other hiking group setting off before them went a different route and romped ahead to Mount Otorten.

This was where Yuri Yudin, who collected mineral samples and declared the area full of lime rocks, limestones, found an old core sample and took it back with him to the university. He, a young and fit hiker, suddenly developed an inflammatory problem with his knee, like an old man, after staying there overnight, this following an easy trek there, their backpacks carried by the horse and cart.

Lyuda's diary mentions how they were woken by two early lark's conversation, Yuri K and Aleksander. These were the two whose clothing was found to be radioactive, and it's assumed this happened through their previous employment at nuclear sites, but equally they may have been out to explore, with different hikers receiving different exposure levels.

There's no signs of deep mining there from photographs, no colliery, although the settlement may have been some distance from the mine itself. It may have been the much more common open cast (surface) mining, or solution mining, with tailings and contaminated water, often discharged then into rivers, and in 1959 nobody would be bothered about the environment or adequately cordon off the area.

Today there's contaminated mud around nuclear sites the world over, and old mines which present similar problems. Example: https://www.fse.org.za/index.php/mining/item/215-residents-use-radioactive-mud-as-an-acne-cure

Had this particular mine been for uranium ore, perhaps as part of the Cold War effort, or exposed some, it may have led to lung cancers and other health issues with workers and was eventually abandoned. Radon gas, in the long-term, can cause similar issues. The hikers would then become contaminated by staying there and travelling through, and several days later display signs of radiation sickness - exhaustion, confusion, and ultimately, where there'd been direct contact, burns. This would then have explained the rescue team arriving with geiger counters and mine sweeping, if say a message about 'checking for radiation as they may have travelled through that mining area' was misconstrued.

However, I went through the photo's and could see no signs of river mud on their clothing during the entire hike. But it's easy to imagine Yuri Yudin kneeling down when hunting for samples, affecting his knee, or Yuri K getting his trouser leg dirty, which days later turns into an itch, redness, and then continuing tissue decay even after death. His burns radiated from his knee down, getting progressively worse towards his toe.

In this theory, and linking to pathology nurse Solter's interview, their shoes would be the most contaminated items, remaining that way through skiing, so would be decontaminated as part of a cover-up, potentially explaining why so many were without footwear, and then depending on what witness statement you read, their shoes being found lined up down one side of the tent, and two pairs left in the middle - if they couldn't fully determine which removed shoes belonged to which dead hiker they wouldn't risk putting them back on the corpses.

I like this theory. It explains the radioactive contamination.

I think the soldiers with mine detectors might also be explained with believing they were wearing watches, carried knives and so on, so where metal was detected below the snow might indicate a body.
The words mine as in landmine and an ore extraction operation are only the same in English, not in Russian  .

The Urals have uranium and many other ores like gold, too. That they found a pyrite core in my opinion indicates it might have been a coal or iron mine, pyrite is often found with coal.But it might have been for uranium or plutonium. However, if some members developed radiation sickness, is that a reason for the whole group to leave the tent? Also presumably there would have been traces of ... vomit either in or around the tent, though around it might have gotten  snowed on and buried.

I was also considering something similar  but instead of radiation sickness, I was thinking about poisoning from some canned food they ate. But equally that wouldn't explain abandoning the tent.

[Investigator]

I admire how you're trying to make sense of it all, but I don't think they would have left without footwear and coats etc. if they had a choice.  Why would they leave a turned off flashlight on top of the tent - why not just leave it in the tent?  I'm more inclined to agree with Starman that the tent was never pitched on the slope.

They were dressed adequately for a search down to the trees. Their main danger was getting wet from sweat or rain.  Dry cold was their normal environment.  They new the difference and the danger.  They all had layers of clothing both cotton and wool.  The flashlight was off to save it's battery. The furthest one from the tent was on.  The first person back would then put the tent light on.  The flashlights were placed to show a route back up to the tent.  It was on top of the tent because they had to put snow on the tent to weigh it down in case the wind got under it and it acted like a boat sail.  I suspect that Dyatlov as leader was following a set plan that existed in their training for a missing hiker.  If it was possible to find their training manual it might be in that and explain a lot.

While I agree with some of this, I find it odd that you think the better explanation is that there was some sort of search party, perhaps for the two Yuris, which would mean that they would certainly keep at least two (probably more) people in the tent at all times to make sure there were no issues with it, as had in fact occurred the previous night or two under much better weather conditions and with the use of the stove to heat it.  To me, the obviously best explanation is that the tent was no longer viable structurally and was about to collapse, be torn apart by winds, or whatever (a simple, inexpensive recreation would likely provide this information).  And if they had wanted fire wood they would have done that during daylight, and could have simply set up the tent by the trees in the first place.  The plan supposedly was not to use the stove that night due to the work required, and if they had sent out two or three to get fire wood and bring it back, there should be evidence of that, such as the stove being fully or partially assembled.  Instead, there is a robust fire started in the tree area, and nowhere else.

They couldn't assemble and light the stove until everyone was in the tent and settled because of space and risk.
It's a good theory.  So they all go to the forest for shelter and make dens which collapse killing and injuring some of them and 3 try to make it back up to the tent.  Yes.  Plausible.  and no Yeti's...anywhere 
But why leave the furthest flashlight on if they weren't thinking of returning. ?

One flashlight that still worked when the rescuers arrived was found on top of some snow that apparently was placed on the tent to keep it from blowing apart (it was in the off position).  The other one was found on the side of the mountain, and no longer worked (I think it was in the on position), and it has been conjectured that one of them flung it as far as he/she could out of disgust because it stopped working.  I'm not sure if anyone has gone up there at the same time of year and with snow cover to see what it's like (and what position was the moon in?), but that is one thing a good investigation would want to determine (that is, the lighting conditions).  So let's assume they didn't think the second flashlight was necessary, and it turned out it was not, other than possibly the "ravine 4" losing their way back to the "den" and falling through the snow and onto a rocky creek.  They probably thought they could survive the night with the fire and/or den ideas, but they might want to return right before dawn or put it on the tent in case they thought they might need to return if the plan (s) did not work out.  At least Zina apparently wanted to get back to the tent, so that is certainly in the realm of possibility.  Remember that they had no experience with that area and may have underestimated how difficult things would be, particularly how the winds relentlessly come off the top of the mountain (so the fire idea wasn't going to work) and there may not have been a good place to shelter within reasonable walking distance (and of course we know it was rather dangerous to just go walking around looking for a good place to create a "den," in terms of the possibility of falling onto the rocky creek).

I guess you have not read my previous posts with a full explanation, which is that the tent becomes structurally unsound (due to icy buildup and/or the winds ripping it apart, or even just an accident or attempt to repair it gone terribly wrong), and they think they have to secure it quickly or else they will not likely survive (there's nobody around to help and they can't commuicate with the outside world).  The fact that they did not take the blankets they were wrapped up in is a huge clue to me, because not taking them meant that they likely were concerned with the winds blowing the blankets away and/or they thought they would be hindered by the blankets and realized they all would have to do a lot of work to survive.  Also, taking the blankets might then mean more items that would get wet/frozen and cause more problems.  They wore clothing they could take off in the morning and then put on clothing that would be wearable.  Remember they don't have modern cold wealther hiking/climbing equipment.  Typical leather boots of that time would just freeze up if you took them off in a cold tent, so it was common to take them off and sleep with them in the sleeping bag, but this group didn't even have sleeping bags!  I think Zina, who expressed anger/disappointment in Igor as a leader went back to the tent after one or both Yuris died, and then Slobodin went after her, but struck his head and was rendered unconscious.  Igor then went after her but succumbed to hypothermia.  There is no indication the three were working together or tried to help each other, which supports this notion.  I've studied a lot of these kinds of incidents, and I don't consider this one to be especially mysterious, weird, incredible, etc.

[DAXXY]

I admire how you're trying to make sense of it all, but I don't think they would have left without footwear and coats etc. if they had a choice.  Why would they leave a turned off flashlight on top of the tent - why not just leave it in the tent?  I'm more inclined to agree with Starman that the tent was never pitched on the slope.

They were dressed adequately for a search down to the trees. Their main danger was getting wet from sweat or rain.  Dry cold was their normal environment.  They new the difference and the danger.  They all had layers of clothing both cotton and wool.  The flashlight was off to save it's battery. The furthest one from the tent was on.  The first person back would then put the tent light on.  The flashlights were placed to show a route back up to the tent.  It was on top of the tent because they had to put snow on the tent to weigh it down in case the wind got under it and it acted like a boat sail.  I suspect that Dyatlov as leader was following a set plan that existed in their training for a missing hiker.  If it was possible to find their training manual it might be in that and explain a lot.

While I agree with some of this, I find it odd that you think the better explanation is that there was some sort of search party, perhaps for the two Yuris, which would mean that they would certainly keep at least two (probably more) people in the tent at all times to make sure there were no issues with it, as had in fact occurred the previous night or two under much better weather conditions and with the use of the stove to heat it.  To me, the obviously best explanation is that the tent was no longer viable structurally and was about to collapse, be torn apart by winds, or whatever (a simple, inexpensive recreation would likely provide this information).  And if they had wanted fire wood they would have done that during daylight, and could have simply set up the tent by the trees in the first place.  The plan supposedly was not to use the stove that night due to the work required, and if they had sent out two or three to get fire wood and bring it back, there should be evidence of that, such as the stove being fully or partially assembled.  Instead, there is a robust fire started in the tree area, and nowhere else.

They couldn't assemble and light the stove until everyone was in the tent and settled because of space and risk.
It's a good theory.  So they all go to the forest for shelter and make dens which collapse killing and injuring some of them and 3 try to make it back up to the tent.  Yes.  Plausible.  and no Yeti's...anywhere 
But why leave the furthest flashlight on if they weren't thinking of returning. ?

One flashlight that still worked when the rescuers arrived was found on top of some snow that apparently was placed on the tent to keep it from blowing apart (it was in the off position).  The other one was found on the side of the mountain, and no longer worked (I think it was in the on position), and it has been conjectured that one of them flung it as far as he/she could out of disgust because it stopped working.  I'm not sure if anyone has gone up there at the same time of year and with snow cover to see what it's like (and what position was the moon in?), but that is one thing a good investigation would want to determine (that is, the lighting conditions).  So let's assume they didn't think the second flashlight was necessary, and it turned out it was not, other than possibly the "ravine 4" losing their way back to the "den" and falling through the snow and onto a rocky creek.  They probably thought they could survive the night with the fire and/or den ideas, but they might want to return right before dawn or put it on the tent in case they thought they might need to return if the plan (s) did not work out.  At least Zina apparently wanted to get back to the tent, so that is certainly in the realm of possibility.  Remember that they had no experience with that area and may have underestimated how difficult things would be, particularly how the winds relentlessly come off the top of the mountain (so the fire idea wasn't going to work) and there may not have been a good place to shelter within reasonable walking distance (and of course we know it was rather dangerous to just go walking around looking for a good place to create a "den," in terms of the possibility of falling onto the rocky creek).

I guess you have not read my previous posts with a full explanation, which is that the tent becomes structurally unsound (due to icy buildup and/or the winds ripping it apart, or even just an accident or attempt to repair it gone terribly wrong), and they think they have to secure it quickly or else they will not likely survive (there's nobody around to help and they can't commuicate with the outside world).  The fact that they did not take the blankets they were wrapped up in is a huge clue to me, because not taking them meant that they likely were concerned with the winds blowing the blankets away and/or they thought they would be hindered by the blankets and realized they all would have to do a lot of work to survive.  Also, taking the blankets might then mean more items that would get wet/frozen and cause more problems.  They wore clothing they could take off in the morning and then put on clothing that would be wearable.  Remember they don't have modern cold wealther hiking/climbing equipment.  Typical leather boots of that time would just freeze up if you took them off in a cold tent, so it was common to take them off and sleep with them in the sleeping bag, but this group didn't even have sleeping bags!  I think Zina, who expressed anger/disappointment in Igor as a leader went back to the tent after one or both Yuris died, and then Slobodin went after her, but struck his head and was rendered unconscious.  Igor then went after her but succumbed to hypothermia.  There is no indication the three were working together or tried to help each other, which supports this notion.  I've studied a lot of these kinds of incidents, and I don't consider this one to be especially mysterious, weird, incredible, etc.

Yes the tent becoming unusable needing a quick evacuation and return in the morning to make repairs and assess things in daylight or after a blizzard has stopped. So collapse the tent, cover it, Why the flashlights ? if you're not coming back until daylight ?
But the rest of the idea is plausible. No time to get felt boots out, just get down to the trees and build dens.  but the Yuris den
(den 1) collapsed before they got in it so they lit a fire but died, the others den (den 2) collapsed but 2 who were outside managed to dig one person out who was injured (crush injury to skull) and decided to head to the tent but didn't make it. they died on the slope.
Good theory. 
I don't know how hypothermia gets people but looking at other cases it seems that it can just make people collapse as they are walking along,  and that is how they are eventually found.  It must be about how the brain is functioning at the time and what they are wearing.  The brain has to function to walk..people walking are often found fully clothed and just collapsed, almost like somebody shot them.  Yet others do the paradoxical undressing, get the pulmonary edema and lack of sensation to their skin and extremities etc.
The 3 on the slope heading back to the tent almost made it. They could have got in the tent, under blankets, used body heat until daybreak. But like many others they seem to have collapsed at the same time.  You would think that maybe 1 out of the three might have made it being so close.  I guess they were similar ages and fitness and had been all exposed to the cold for the same amount of time.  It seems like all three dropped at the same time. 
Maybe Zinaida's bruise on her side came from her being trapped half in and half out of the den (den 2) when it collapsed. 

My search party idea was because of the separation of the party down in the woods.  The stove in the tent, the need for firewood etc.. The 2 yuris and their collapsed den seem separated from the others and also the tree climbing as a way to attract help from the tent.  Why 2 dens if they were all there at the same time ? Why didn't the 2 yuris get help from the others ? Why didn't the 2 yuris try and get in to the others den ? too small maybe so they lit the fire ? Interesting..Why didn't the 2 yuris try and get to the tent earlier while they still had their clothes on ?

 

[Manti]

Why 2 dens if they were all there at the same time ? Why didn't the 2 yuris get help from the others ? Why didn't the 2 yuris try and get in to the others den ? too small maybe so they lit the fire ? Interesting..Why didn't the 2 yuris try and get to the tent earlier while they still had their clothes on ?

Were there 2 dens? One construction made from branches and clothes was found under snow, it can be assumed it was inside a den, but might have just been on the surface and got buried later.

Answers to the other questions depend on the order of events which in unclear, and the biggest mystery of course is why didn't everyone try to return to the tent, or on the contrary why did some of them try to return after all of them apparently abandoned it...

[DAXXY]

I think 2 dens because the bodies were in 2 places and the yuris den was so small with only their clothes inside.  The ravine or gully 4 had crush injuries and I think one person going up the slope had a skull/crush injury. These internal injuries didn't have outer wounds. So given the injuries I'd say a den collapsed on some of them. It still doesn't explain why the 2 yuris didn't try and get to the tent before they succumbed to the cold.  They had no crush injuries so were they exposed to the cold longer ?  which goes back to my search party theory ? Were the 2 yuris out in the cold longer than the others ? The others find them, they don't know about their den or it's collapsed.  So they set about building a den which collapses on them. The last 3 try and get to the tent.

[eurocentric]

One theory I considered, given the old mining settlement had been abandoned in 1952, and not knowing why, or what had been mined there, was had they come into contact with radioactive mud/tailings along the river, or otherwise become contaminated while staying at the only habitable hut with intact windows. The other hiking group setting off before them went a different route and romped ahead to Mount Otorten.

This was where Yuri Yudin, who collected mineral samples and declared the area full of lime rocks, limestones, found an old core sample and took it back with him to the university. He, a young and fit hiker, suddenly developed an inflammatory problem with his knee, like an old man, after staying there overnight, this following an easy trek there, their backpacks carried by the horse and cart.

Lyuda's diary mentions how they were woken by two early lark's conversation, Yuri K and Aleksander. These were the two whose clothing was found to be radioactive, and it's assumed this happened through their previous employment at nuclear sites, but equally they may have been out to explore, with different hikers receiving different exposure levels.

There's no signs of deep mining there from photographs, no colliery, although the settlement may have been some distance from the mine itself. It may have been the much more common open cast (surface) mining, or solution mining, with tailings and contaminated water, often discharged then into rivers, and in 1959 nobody would be bothered about the environment or adequately cordon off the area.

Today there's contaminated mud around nuclear sites the world over, and old mines which present similar problems. Example: https://www.fse.org.za/index.php/mining/item/215-residents-use-radioactive-mud-as-an-acne-cure

Had this particular mine been for uranium ore, perhaps as part of the Cold War effort, or exposed some, it may have led to lung cancers and other health issues with workers and was eventually abandoned. Radon gas, in the long-term, can cause similar issues. The hikers would then become contaminated by staying there and travelling through, and several days later display signs of radiation sickness - exhaustion, confusion, and ultimately, where there'd been direct contact, burns. This would then have explained the rescue team arriving with geiger counters and mine sweeping, if say a message about 'checking for radiation as they may have travelled through that mining area' was misconstrued.

However, I went through the photo's and could see no signs of river mud on their clothing during the entire hike. But it's easy to imagine Yuri Yudin kneeling down when hunting for samples, affecting his knee, or Yuri K getting his trouser leg dirty, which days later turns into an itch, redness, and then continuing tissue decay even after death. His burns radiated from his knee down, getting progressively worse towards his toe.

In this theory, and linking to pathology nurse Solter's interview, their shoes would be the most contaminated items, remaining that way through skiing, so would be decontaminated as part of a cover-up, potentially explaining why so many were without footwear, and then depending on what witness statement you read, their shoes being found lined up down one side of the tent, and two pairs left in the middle - if they couldn't fully determine which removed shoes belonged to which dead hiker they wouldn't risk putting them back on the corpses.

I like this theory. It explains the radioactive contamination.

I think the soldiers with mine detectors might also be explained with believing they were wearing watches, carried knives and so on, so where metal was detected below the snow might indicate a body.
The words mine as in landmine and an ore extraction operation are only the same in English, not in Russian  .

The Urals have uranium and many other ores like gold, too. That they found a pyrite core in my opinion indicates it might have been a coal or iron mine, pyrite is often found with coal.But it might have been for uranium or plutonium. However, if some members developed radiation sickness, is that a reason for the whole group to leave the tent? Also presumably there would have been traces of ... vomit either in or around the tent, though around it might have gotten  snowed on and buried.

I was also considering something similar  but instead of radiation sickness, I was thinking about poisoning from some canned food they ate. But equally that wouldn't explain abandoning the tent.

You'll be right about the language. I can do a pretty good Russian accent and should stick to that because the only words I know are nyet, spasibo and nostrovia, or at least that's how they're pronounced.

Maybe the abandoned mine had been for rarer things, such as gold. If coal or iron it would probably be large scale and have road links, which the hikers may have been able to use to travel there.

The radiation theory could still work if either the floor of the hut they used was contaminated from things previously stored there, with some 'hot spots' individual hikers laid on through the night, or it still contained things, such as core samples, which the hikers slept against.

One of the things I'd hope the investigation did, given the claims of strange skin colour and burns and irradiated clothing, although it was low level at autopsy (maybe after decontamination, including Aleksander being in the ravine), was to visit the homes of Yuri K and Aleksander and scan them with a geiger counter. Finding other traces would have determined if they went to the hike with contaminated clothing, or became contaminated on the hike.

Perhaps it wouldn't apply with food poisoning, but if some of them increasingly felt ill when on the mountain they may assume it was due to their environment then, and wish to leave, off to a clean and safer place, the forest.

[RMK]

Reply #92

My big problem with the Dyatlov Hikers ever reaching Dyatlov Pass is that Nurse Solter kept repeating how filthy they were, how filthy and so on...
..................
There aremsome events in your life you just don't ever forget and I believe Nurse Solter on those issues she won't budge on and she is very firm in remembering.

«...Solter kept repeating how filthy they were....»
 
Perhaps this is a decent way to make readers understand that the contents of the intestines have been transferred to the inside of the panties.
Was this a common way of politely speaking from Russian health professionals ? I do not know, but it is not unlikely.

You know, that's an interesting interpretation I had not considered.  I will point out that the autopsies report that the rectums of 6 of the 9 hikers are "clear"/"clean".  Vorozhdenny does not remark about that part of the body for Kolmogorova and Dubinina, and observes the presence of fecal matter only for Zolotaryov.

[Manti]

The ravine or gully 4 had crush injuries and I think one person going up the slope had a skull/crush injury. These internal injuries didn't have outer wounds.

So, if you look at Tibo's autopsy, he did have multiple external wounds, including on his head, in fact there were even holes in his hat. It is not clear if these were in the same place as his skull injury, apparently not, but maybe his hat got moved while in transport...

On the examination table is a male body clothed as follows: the head is covered by a tightly tied green woolen sports cap with three round holes sized 3 x 3 cm located in the front. ... A worn-out knitted blue shirt, which on the right and bottom has torn ovals in the fabric 2 x 3 cm in size.



...

On the upper left jaw there is a defect

Sheet 353

- 2 -

in the soft tissue, which has an irregular oval shape with a size of 3 x 4 cm with drawn out, convoluted borders exposing the alveolar edge of the upper jaw, The teeth are white and even. The mouth is open. The lips have a pale grey color. The tongue is in the mouth. The mucous membrane of the tongue and mouth are of a dirty green color. ...

[DAXXY]

It's an unknown.  Interesting that he says defect rather then wound or abrasion.  Could that mean that the head was pushed down on to something hard by a force from above it. It all suggests crush injuries from a den collapsing. Yes they also had many small wounds etc.  Possibly from digging and undergrowth.  Also if you look at the quality of the snow at the first den it appears to be either stones or frozen blocks of loose ice which would not be easy digging without tools.   It would injure hands and knees of people trying to dig in to it.  Odd that if Dyatlov had the knowledge that in a crisis you build a den yet he never packed any digging tools. If he needed a den above the tree line what would he have done ?

[Manti]

Odd that if Dyatlov had the knowledge that in a crisis you build a den yet he never packed any digging tools. If he needed a den above the tree line what would he have done ?

And they built the labaz which was I think partly dug into snow. But also they had to dig a lot to get a level platform for the tent on the slope... and the photos purportedly showing them doing that don't show any tools... were they digging with ski poles?

They did have ice axes which are certainly more practical than digging with ski poles or bare hands.
But there is one thing which might or might not have occurred at the ravine, called depth hoar. This is a form of snowpack that forms when the lower part of the snow is warmer, and (therefore) wetter, than the top. I think this was the case because the air temperature was consistently below freezing but there was a flowing stream below the snow, so above freezing temperatures there.
What this results in is weakened lower layers, that I would say can be like sand. This layer might not be thick, usually only 10 cm, but considering how much snow was found there, might have been thicker, and it's easy to dig.

By the time they were found this would have disappeared as it was spring and the snow started thawing from the top too... turning the entire snowpack into wet slush snow.

A collapsing den can cause injuries, but can it cause injuries like Semyon's or Tibo's? If you look at their photos from the morgue, it is somewhat doubtful because the snow just wouldn't gain enough velocity as the den probably wasn't high inside.

[DAXXY]

In the photo you can see the size of the bank one of the dens was in.  The bodies were found near this so I guess it was the same bank. It towers over the searchers who dug it out.  If they dug out a cavity low down they are digging in to the part of the bank where most stress is applied from the snow and ice above.  The den cavity weakens the bank.  They would have had many cubic meters of snow and ice fall on them pinning them down on to forest landscape such as rocks and stones.   Over the weeks that passed during the thaw there could have been further movement as the snow melted and the bodies moved by water and shifting ice causing more damage to them.  Eventually they ended up where they were found.

[eurocentric]

The snow bank wouldn't have been that high when the den was dug though, and there'd have been no benefit to digging that deep if it was. All they needed to do was to get out of the cold air, the wind chill, to sit on insulated pads of fir foliage and the pieces of clothing found there. The den would be dug by hand, or with a branch, the recovery team are using long-handled shovels, and that man would need a ladder or assistance to climb out of there. The original height was probably to his neck level.

It took 3 months to locate the ravine bodies and during that time snowfall, plus the way the wind scour at higher elevation would funnel snow down there, would double the height. Had there been glacier-style movement towards the ravine it would have dragged the den/seats with it, not just bodies.

If the bodies had been found crushed in the den it would work, but even then it would be extremely unlikely to generate the same pattern injuries of flail chests to the right side, 4+4 fractures to the same ribs, on two people (Lyuda also having a single set of bilateral side fractures on her left side). The most likely explanation for that uniformity and focus is resus fractures.

[RidgeWatcher]

You know, that's an interesting interpretation I had not considered.  I will point out that the autopsies report that the rectums of 6 of the 9 hikers are "clear"/"clean".  Vorozhdenny does not remark about that part of the body for Kolmogorova and Dubinina, and observes the presence of fecal matter only for Zolotaryov.

That word would be “evisceration” and there wasn't any visual signs of this physically on the frozen corpses, that I read from the autopsies. I believe Nurse Solter would specify between evisceration, open abdomen or just filthy.

The sawn or sharpened cut wood in the den has always reminded more of a funeral pyre than the floor of a den. From the photos it looks as if there were plenty of cedar and spruce soft branches to top those sharply cut wood branches but there wasn’t. We’re the attackers trying to burn the evidence (bodies) but somehow decided against that plan? Was this why two Yuri’s had burns? Did a group of attackers find out it fairly difficult to burn bodies in the ice and snow, quickly?

What are the chances that whatever cut the den hard branches caused those head “defects” in Rustem and Tibo?

[eurocentric]

Odd that if Dyatlov had the knowledge that in a crisis you build a den yet he never packed any digging tools. If he needed a den above the tree line what would he have done ?

And they built the labaz which was I think partly dug into snow. But also they had to dig a lot to get a level platform for the tent on the slope... and the photos purportedly showing them doing that don't show any tools... were they digging with ski poles?

They did have ice axes which are certainly more practical than digging with ski poles or bare hands.
But there is one thing which might or might not have occurred at the ravine, called depth hoar. This is a form of snowpack that forms when the lower part of the snow is warmer, and (therefore) wetter, than the top. I think this was the case because the air temperature was consistently below freezing but there was a flowing stream below the snow, so above freezing temperatures there.
What this results in is weakened lower layers, that I would say can be like sand. This layer might not be thick, usually only 10 cm, but considering how much snow was found there, might have been thicker, and it's easy to dig.

By the time they were found this would have disappeared as it was spring and the snow started thawing from the top too... turning the entire snowpack into wet slush snow.

A collapsing den can cause injuries, but can it cause injuries like Semyon's or Tibo's? If you look at their photos from the morgue, it is somewhat doubtful because the snow just wouldn't gain enough velocity as the den probably wasn't high inside.

The labaz was up off the ground.



They didn't have any shovels so used skis and ski poles to dig trenches. In the 2 trench digging photo's on the mountain Yuri K is shown holding a ski, as is another hiker in the background. The rest will be using their bamboo ski poles. Perhaps the technique was for him to mark out the edges of the plot and then pull away layers of snow from the sides with the ski, and then others used the poles as shovels. If the wooden ski hit rock that may explain one breaking.



I think they only had one ice axe, and depending on what you read 3 or 4 wood axes.

The morgue photo's will mislead. Semyon's photo was taken after autopsy, there's a sealed incision running down his chest, which follows the rib cage being cut open at the sternum and the chest then prized open to allow access to the internal organs for dissection and inspection. He'd be sewn back up to present him for funeral/relative appearing to provide positive ID, giving him that crushed/run over appearance. Lyuda's corresponding photo also seems to be taken after autopsy, but her chest will look fuller, less crushed, due to breast tissue.

[DAXXY]

This is how the ski broke.  A piece of broken ski was on the slope.  Probably blew away after it broke. 

Seems odd not to pack a small military digging tool or shovel though when they seemed to organize so much, and snow digging was a very expected activity and a snow den was part of safety ??? Seems bad practice to risk damaging a ski using it to dig.  If a ski is badly damaged you are in a worse situation.  I think one spare ski was down at the store in the forest. 

[RidgeWatcher]

Well they needed a few tools to make the labaz/cache. Someone had a shovel to put the four larger support poles at 90 degrees into the ground, enough to support the housing weight. There are no angled support branches to stabilize the four large support poles, so they can't be sitting just in the snow or ice. Some part of those support poles are in the ground or in a blast of wind the entire structure would topple. Or if you climbed on top of it it would topple.

How could Dyatlov misread the compass and miss the lower part of Dyatlov Pass? I think he was too intellegent to do this. They either saw something up on the Dyatlov Pass on their first ascent and turned back, then to lighten their load by building the lab/cache and retried their ascent deeper into the Auspiya Valley but then resulting in a higher ascent of Kholat Syakhl. Did the Dyatlov hikers already know they were being scouted or hunted?

[DAXXY]

Odd that if Dyatlov had the knowledge that in a crisis you build a den yet he never packed any digging tools. If he needed a den above the tree line what would he have done ?

And they built the labaz which was I think partly dug into snow. But also they had to dig a lot to get a level platform for the tent on the slope... and the photos purportedly showing them doing that don't show any tools... were they digging with ski poles?

They did have ice axes which are certainly more practical than digging with ski poles or bare hands.
But there is one thing which might or might not have occurred at the ravine, called depth hoar. This is a form of snowpack that forms when the lower part of the snow is warmer, and (therefore) wetter, than the top. I think this was the case because the air temperature was consistently below freezing but there was a flowing stream below the snow, so above freezing temperatures there.
What this results in is weakened lower layers, that I would say can be like sand. This layer might not be thick, usually only 10 cm, but considering how much snow was found there, might have been thicker, and it's easy to dig.

By the time they were found this would have disappeared as it was spring and the snow started thawing from the top too... turning the entire snowpack into wet slush snow.

A collapsing den can cause injuries, but can it cause injuries like Semyon's or Tibo's? If you look at their photos from the morgue, it is somewhat doubtful because the snow just wouldn't gain enough velocity as the den probably wasn't high inside.

The labaz was up off the ground.



They didn't have any shovels so used skis and ski poles to dig trenches. In the 2 trench digging photo's on the mountain Yuri K is shown holding a ski, as is another hiker in the background. The rest will be using their bamboo ski poles. Perhaps the technique was for him to mark out the edges of the plot and then pull away layers of snow from the sides with the ski, and then others used the poles as shovels. If the wooden ski hit rock that may explain one breaking.



I think they only had one ice axe, and depending on what you read 3 or 4 wood axes.

The morgue photo's will mislead. Semyon's photo was taken after autopsy, there's a sealed incision running down his chest, which follows the rib cage being cut open at the sternum and the chest then prized open to allow access to the internal organs for dissection and inspection. He'd be sewn back up to present him for funeral/relative appearing to provide positive ID, giving him that crushed/run over appearance. Lyuda's corresponding photo also seems to be taken after autopsy, but her chest will look fuller, less crushed, due to breast tissue.

That labaz is just a photo he took their own store was a hole in the ground with a ski marking it.

https://dyatlovpass.com/labaz

[RidgeWatcher]

Gotcha, I always thought the Russians built caches like they do in Alaska, up on stilts/poles to keep moose, caribou, bears and critters out of them. Little houses with doors on top. I always thought the photo the rescue crew built was what the Dyatlov hikers had built. In Alaska you NEVER go near anyone's cache or the owners can shoot you. Not even in a joking manor. There is no joke about even approaching another persons cache. Lots of cabins burn down so your cache will keep you alive. I am surprised, even on the go, that they just built a platform because even in winter there are critters running around below the snow looking for anything to eat.