What's the state of play?

[Nigel Evans]

This is the sub polar Urals in Feb? The diary gives temps of -18 to -24C in the forest? On the ridge it would be colder? Where is the heat coming from to melt things?

[Ziljoe]

A very good point. You tell me lol. But fern snow is part of thawing or melting I think. I am reading and trying to understand . I believe it can be also by compression of the snow. Generates its own heat...but firn snow is not ice, I don't think anyway.

[Ziljoe]

Also this melting or thawing causes different layers of snow all the time. There's humidity in the air that changes the layer of snow. Hence even the concept of a snow slab.

[Nigel Evans]

A very good point. You tell me lol. But fern snow is part of thawing or melting I think. I am reading and trying to understand . I believe it can be also by compression of the snow. Generates its own heat...but firn snow is not ice, I don't think anyway.

At higher altitudes (considerably higher than 1000m) mountain snow doesn't melt in the summer because it's too cold. But the sun does raise it's temp close to 0C. This and the pressure due to the weight of the snow above starts a long term process of turning snow into glacier ice. Essentially the snow crystals are becoming compressed removing air resulting in a much denser pack and the warming due to summer and pressure is creating a little melting that on refreezing increases the hardness. Firn is a point along this path. But he's only using the term firn wrt the tent to describe the hardness, it's not really firn snow, but it's as hard as. So i think we can rule out pressure and hence we're left with warming that shouldn't be occurring.

[Ziljoe]

Oi, you have been googling!

Yeah, that's what I have been reading. Ball in your court. What's your explanation then.  Fire orbs, rockets I know you strated this thread. What have you pulled together?

[Nigel Evans]

Oi, you have been googling!

Yeah, that's what I have been reading. Ball in your court. What's your explanation then.  Fire orbs, rockets I know you strated this thread. What have you pulled together?

Atmospheric electricity discharging from the sky into the mountain. Snow is an excellent electrical insulator but they dug through it to erect the tent. So the discharge is focused at that location. Electrical discharge = electric current which creates heat. In the mansi legend the mountain lost all it's snow nearly up to the peak (that's a lot of heat...). The DPI event was a minor version in comparison. YuriK probably got his burn at the tent location. That's why they wouldn't return for clothing, just one look at that 30cm 3rd degree burn and would you get back inside? Electric discharge = lightning which is known to create ball lightning. That's what they photographed. They died for those photographs and no one gets that.... Ce sera.

[Ziljoe]

Interesting and not out of the realms of possibility. Do you have any links or other noted info. I had not come across the Mansi legend, do you have a link for that at hand. As understand the interpretation it was called dead mountain or something similar as it was not good for hunting.

[sarapuk]

Another Post thats going nowhere.

[Ziljoe]

Please continue Nigel. I would be glad to hear all your thoughts. Obviously we are not setting the forum on fire but we can always call Dona over....

[trekker]

At the moment I'm all for Wolverine. Igors work seems healthy and good arguments. Not 100% but close to it.

Yes, wolverine have those glands, but I have never heard of nine persons or all of the entire group of persons died of because of any animal (lions, hippos, snakes et cetera). We have some of wolverines here in Finland, but I have never heard of its glands emitting such a fluid, that it prevents any action of humans e.g. reindeers husbanders in Finnish Lappland.

My basic point is: is there any example in human history that any animal have killed or caused death of the entire group of humans?

[MDGross]

Help me out here, Nigel. Could a bolt of lightning pass through the tent and hit YuriK? Or did the lightning create an electrical current in the tent or under it? If so, wouldn't others suffer burns and not just YuriK?

[KFinn]

Help me out here, Nigel. Could a bolt of lightning pass through the tent and hit YuriK? Or did the lightning create an electrical current in the tent or under it? If so, wouldn't others suffer burns and not just YuriK?

Hmm.  Does it have to be either/or?  Could the lightning force them to flee and Krivo still be burned down at the fire under the cedar?  I could see a domino effect happening.  It would be statistically minute but possible...

[trekker]

And firm snow is just what happens there.

Q. So how does snow against a tent turn into ice in just three weeks?A. It can't be pressure it must be that it's been softened with raised temperatures and then refrozen.

The diary records temps in the forest of -18C to -24C. So how does the temp on the ridge get close to 0C?

If that is natural phenomenon, why we would not record such events after 1959? There have been many visits in the DPI site after 1959?

[Nigel Evans]

Interesting and not out of the realms of possibility. Do you have any links or other noted info. I had not come across the Mansi legend, do you have a link for that at hand. As understand the interpretation it was called dead mountain or something similar as it was not good for hunting.

From the looo.ch epub - "Mansi legends tell of nine hunters that found their death on the Mount Kholat-Syakhyl at the time of the Flood: “died of hunger”, “cooked to death in boiling water”, “perished in some sinister flare”. Hence its name, translated as the Mountain of the Dead."

[Ziljoe]

At the moment I'm all for Wolverine. Igors work seems healthy and good arguments. Not 100% but close to it.

Yes, wolverine have those glands, but I have never heard of nine persons or all of the entire group of persons died of because of any animal (lions, hippos, snakes et cetera). We have some of wolverines here in Finland, but I have never heard of its glands emitting such a fluid, that it prevents any action of humans e.g. reindeers husbanders in Finnish Lappland.

My basic point is: is there any example in human history that any animal have killed or caused death of the entire group of humans?

Hi trekker.

From the Wolverine theory , as my interpretation of events is that the beast did not attack, kill, or do anything  spectacular. It sprayed it's smell. Having searched online it has been difficult to get any data on its habits. I have found translating my questioned in to russian gets more results. There are examples along with skunks that the smell is awful. Whether that's enough for them to be forced out of the tent , leave valuable tools and clothing is another matter. The Wolverine did not kill them but forced them into an environment that they could not survive. Along with some bad luck.

That goes along with the strong wind theory and WaBs infro sound theory. What made them leave the tent and not pick up some kit.

For me the Wolverine theory could be disproved if humans could stand the smell. But if it was sprayed inside the tent it can cause blindness and dizziness.

There are a number of different evolutions of the beast. I would assume those in Finland are the same. But online the reports, mostly of skunks , is its horrid. It doesn't always spray and uses its glands in 2 ways. As well as urinates and wipes it's butt on things. Glutton is it's other name , if I understand it will eat anything and store food more than it needs. Dead , alive, you name it, it will eat the lot.

[Ziljoe]

And firm snow is just what happens there.

Q. So how does snow against a tent turn into ice in just three weeks?A. It can't be pressure it must be that it's been softened with raised temperatures and then refrozen.

The diary records temps in the forest of -18C to -24C. So how does the temp on the ridge get close to 0C?

If that is natural phenomenon, why we would not record such events after 1959? There have been many visits in the DPI site after 1959?

Hi trekker.

Is the question for me?

[Nigel Evans]

Help me out here, Nigel. Could a bolt of lightning pass through the tent and hit YuriK? Or did the lightning create an electrical current in the tent or under it? If so, wouldn't others suffer burns and not just YuriK?

Very unlikely without burning the tent. More possible could be a static discharge from the canvas fabric (being charged from the sky). It would be very plausible that it would only find one path and injure one person. E.g. the others could be lying down insulated by their backpacks, skis etc, whilst he was manning the camera/tripod and stuck his foot outside of this insulation (charring the top half of one toe!!).

[Nigel Evans]

And firm snow is just what happens there.

Q. So how does snow against a tent turn into ice in just three weeks?A. It can't be pressure it must be that it's been softened with raised temperatures and then refrozen.

The diary records temps in the forest of -18C to -24C. So how does the temp on the ridge get close to 0C?

If that is natural phenomenon, why we would not record such events after 1959? There have been many visits in the DPI site after 1959?

It probably has happened, it might be a rare phenomena perhaps one night every ten years maybe more frequently, people aren't there that often. The mansi avoid the place.

[Manti]

Hence its name, translated as the Mountain of the Dead."

I have posted about this before, it can be translated as "mountain of the dead", it can also be translated as "barren rock". Which it is.

See: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=590.msg11204#msg11204

[Manti]

And by the way, the condition of the snow as found by the searchers around the tent also puzzled me. Still does, but in the diaries you can read from the DG themselves that there was "firn snow" above the treeline, as they ascended from Auspiya. I assume that describes the first attempt. Anyway that would be on the other side of the pass. So this hard snow existed in the wider area, before the incident too. So maybe it's not that mysterious.

Unless of course someone faked the diaries to make the hardened snow seem less strange...... 

[trekker]

Having searched online it has been difficult to get any data on its habits.

Yes, that is exactly for me too. Nevertheless I haven't bumped any incidents in Finland reindeer husbandry area that wolverine gland fluids have caused any incidents.

There are a number of different evolutions of the beast. I would assume those in Finland are the same. But online the reports, mostly of skunks , is its horrid.

Yes it is propably exact same species, but I have never heard in Finnish Lappland reindeer husbandy area (like Mansi people) that Wolverine have hindered any people actions. Wolverine is quite small predator and likes to be lone (hermit) animal.

I would like to enlight my background: I am not professional hunter, reindeer husbander (like Mansi) or trekker. I have background in Finnish Defence Forces so I have some rough experience from trekking above arctic circle. So I consider myself lightly semiprofessional in this case.

[Nigel Evans]

And by the way, the condition of the snow as found by the searchers around the tent also puzzled me. Still does, but in the diaries you can read from the DG themselves that there was "firn snow" above the treeline, as they ascended from Auspiya. I assume that describes the first attempt. Anyway that would be on the other side of the pass. So this hard snow existed in the wider area, before the incident too. So maybe it's not that mysterious.

Unless of course someone faked the diaries to make the hardened snow seem less strange...... 

An atmospheric electrical discharge could cover a wide area? A warmed mountain is a big area?

[Nigel Evans]

30.01.59
 Weather: temperature in the morning - 17 С
 day  - 13 С
 night  - 26 С.
 The wind is strong, south-west, snow begins to fall, heavy clouds, drop in temperature. The temperature is normal for Northern Urals.
 This is a story about the forest. Mansi signs tell about animals they saw, resting stops  and other  things. It is particularly interesting to solve its meaning  for the hikers as well as historians.
 Deer trail turns into а trodden path, and then ends. To go without a trail is very hard, snow is 120 cm (4 feet) deep. The forest  gradually thins and trees get smaller. You can feel the altitude. Lots of dwarf birches and pines. It is impossible to walk on the river. It is not completely frozen, there is ice and water under the snow. We have to go back on the bank of the river. The day is over and we have to find a place for bivouac. That's the stop for the night. Strong west wind. It blows the snows off the cedar and pine trees, creating the impression of a  snow fall.
As usual we quickly start a fire and pitch the tent on some fir branches. We are warmed by the fire and go to sleep.Meltwater from Kholat? A river not completely frozen in air temps of --20C in Feb?

[Ziljoe]

Having searched online it has been difficult to get any data on its habits.

Yes, that is exactly for me too. Nevertheless I haven't bumped any incidents in Finland reindeer husbandry area that wolverine gland fluids have caused any incidents.

There are a number of different evolutions of the beast. I would assume those in Finland are the same. But online the reports, mostly of skunks , is its horrid.

Yes it is propably exact same species, but I have never heard in Finnish Lappland reindeer husbandy area (like Mansi people) that Wolverine have hindered any people actions. Wolverine is quite small predator and likes to be lone (hermit) animal.

As understand the Wolverines habits is to eat , sleep , and cover a large area. Uses its glands to mark it's food labaz etc. It can give a good fight to wolf's and bear s or at least get out of trouble. It has no problems with humans and is relatively curious beast although isolated due to its environment. What has been recorded that it will spray it's stinky gland when in real trouble but under only extreme circumstances. I have found examples and stories of the Wolverine going in to tents and snow holes with humans. Even in to log homes. It smells food and follow s it's nose. The potential argument for the Wolverine is it got into the tent , Got stuck inside and everyone one is shouting or whatever. The Wolverine sprays it's gland. Its toxic. The fight is not a physical fight but a fight against the toxin.

Anyway , this Nigel's thread and I wish to give him the respect on his theory. He has some valid points.

[trekker]

Having searched online it has been difficult to get any data on its habits.

Yes, that is exactly for me too. Nevertheless I haven't bumped any incidents in Finland reindeer husbandry area that wolverine gland fluids have caused any incidents.

There are a number of different evolutions of the beast. I would assume those in Finland are the same. But online the reports, mostly of skunks , is its horrid.

Yes it is propably exact same species, but I have never heard in Finnish Lappland reindeer husbandy area (like Mansi people) that Wolverine have hindered any people actions. Wolverine is quite small predator and likes to be lone (hermit) animal.

As understand the Wolverines habits is to eat , sleep , and cover a large area. Uses its glands to mark it's food labaz etc. It can give a good fight to wolf's and bear s or at least get out of trouble. It has no problems with humans and is relatively curious beast although isolated due to its environment. What has been recorded that it will spray it's stinky gland when in real trouble but under only extreme circumstances. I have found examples and stories of the Wolverine going in to tents and snow holes with humans. Even in to log homes. It smells food and follow s it's nose. The potential argument for the Wolverine is it got into the tent , Got stuck inside and everyone one is shouting or whatever. The Wolverine sprays it's gland. Its toxic. The fight is not a physical fight but a fight against the toxin.

Anyway , this Nigel's thread and I wish to give him the respect on his theory. He has some valid points.

Yes, to my understanding about wolverines You are precise correct. I have seen wolverine close in Kuusamo (In Finland, northern wild life center), wolverines are fucking strong and muscular animals consedering their size. But still they are at least in Finland quite loners.

My account of wolverines is based purely my instiction. I wouldn't cosider wolverine the cause of leaving the tent, but I cannot prove my point so You may have plausible explanation.

[Nigel Evans]

Having searched online it has been difficult to get any data on its habits.

Yes, that is exactly for me too. Nevertheless I haven't bumped any incidents in Finland reindeer husbandry area that wolverine gland fluids have caused any incidents.

There are a number of different evolutions of the beast. I would assume those in Finland are the same. But online the reports, mostly of skunks , is its horrid.

Yes it is propably exact same species, but I have never heard in Finnish Lappland reindeer husbandy area (like Mansi people) that Wolverine have hindered any people actions. Wolverine is quite small predator and likes to be lone (hermit) animal.

As understand the Wolverines habits is to eat , sleep , and cover a large area. Uses its glands to mark it's food labaz etc. It can give a good fight to wolf's and bear s or at least get out of trouble. It has no problems with humans and is relatively curious beast although isolated due to its environment. What has been recorded that it will spray it's stinky gland when in real trouble but under only extreme circumstances. I have found examples and stories of the Wolverine going in to tents and snow holes with humans. Even in to log homes. It smells food and follow s it's nose. The potential argument for the Wolverine is it got into the tent , Got stuck inside and everyone one is shouting or whatever. The Wolverine sprays it's gland. Its toxic. The fight is not a physical fight but a fight against the toxin.

Anyway , this Nigel's thread and I wish to give him the respect on his theory. He has some valid points.

No probs discussing other peoples theories, as in the title.

[Manti]

Going for the wolverine spray is the clothes (including a coat!) dropped by the tent. Why leave a coat behind, unless it smells so bad you can't bear it?

A river not completely frozen in air temps of --20C in Feb?

Well, a stream. Streams never freeze completely. As this is what I've always seen in forests, I didn't even consider why. But now that I think about it, the water is from the ground, the ground never freezes, perhaps the top layers, like the soil freeze but the rocks below are always kept above freezing by the inner warmth of the Earth. So the groundwater will find a way out. If the air is cold ice will form on top of the stream but underneath there is always running water.. but if it's just a small stream perhaps the top layer is too fast and ice never forms in some places, there's always fresh water to melt it.


So there is nothing strange about this. Further downstream where the top layer is tranquil enough, a thick layer of ice can form that then gets snowed on. Under that there's still flowing water. There's water below even the North Pole ;) Of course that's saltwater so harder to freeze but still. Sorry if I used strange words but you get the gist.

[Nigel Evans]

Going for the wolverine spray is the clothes (including a coat!) dropped by the tent. Why leave a coat behind, unless it smells so bad you can't bear it?

A river not completely frozen in air temps of --20C in Feb?

Well, a stream. Streams never freeze completely. As this is what I've always seen in forests, I didn't even consider why. But now that I think about it, the water is from the ground, the ground never freezes, perhaps the top layers, like the soil freeze but the rocks below are always kept above freezing by the inner warmth of the Earth. So the groundwater will find a way out. If the air is cold ice will form on top of the stream but underneath there is always running water.. but if it's just a small stream perhaps the top layer is too fast and ice never forms in some places, there's always fresh water to melt it.


So there is nothing strange about this. Further downstream where the top layer is tranquil enough, a thick layer of ice can form that then gets snowed on. Under that there's still flowing water. There's water below even the North Pole ;) Of course that's saltwater so harder to freeze but still. Sorry if I used strange words but you get the gist.

Well the diary is talking about the river? And further back in the trip they are using frozen rivers to make good progress? But as they near the DP the river isn't frozen...


Wrt streams i would expect the ground to be frozen (seasonal tundra?) by end of Jan at least at the surface. So any surface water would freeze also. Perhaps you meant springs?

[sarapuk]

Please continue Nigel. I would be glad to hear all your thoughts. Obviously we are not setting the forum on fire but we can always call Dona over....

Yes Donna has brought this Forum to life. Not sure if we are all going round in circles though.

[Nigel Evans]

Please continue Nigel. I would be glad to hear all your thoughts. Obviously we are not setting the forum on fire but we can always call Dona over....

Yes Donna has brought this Forum to life. Not sure if we are all going round in circles though.

Your opinion of Dona might be higher than mine.