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General Discussion / Re: The Four
« Last post by GlennM on July 14, 2025, 01:08:09 PM »The pallet of branches and clothing at the corners had got to figure in to the situation.
Recent Posts
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General Discussion / Re: How long can you live with a cracked skull?
« Last post by GlennM on July 14, 2025, 01:05:18 PM »Is the suggestion that Rustem was beaten about the head by someone he knew? If not, then was it not fortunate that he, Igor and Zina were able to elude more abuse? Surely, malefactors are not going to let witnesses and the victim go free. Perhaps Rustem fell hard.I do not think the slab slide was responsible for his injuries. It happened closer to the cedar.
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General Discussion / Re: Positions of bodies
« Last post by GlennM on July 14, 2025, 12:56:30 PM »I think that soaked clothing from running water figures into the fate of the Yuris'. That in turn means they ran into trouble elsewhere, perhaps digging a tunnel is the ravine over water?
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General Discussion / Positions of bodies
« Last post by amashilu on July 14, 2025, 11:22:18 AM »It seems probable to me that the bodies of the ravine4 and the two Yuris were moved after death and "positioned." Maybe also Igor's body.
Therefore, I am starting to divorce the two Yuris' deaths from the cedar tree. I don't know if they had anything to do with the cedar at all, aside from being positioned at its base after their deaths. Is there really evidence that one or both them climbed the tree? Fell from the tree? Cut a window of branches so they could watch the tent? How about being burnt in the little campfire that was not well-tended and only burned for 90 minutes? I am moving them away from the cedar and looking at other possibilities.
Same with the 4 in the ravine. Their injuries killed them quickly, so it's possible they died elsewhere, were brought to the ravine after death and positioned.
Hopefully, thinking like this can open up more options for what happened, instead of binding my thinking to the cedar and some kind of snow dump at the ravine.
Therefore, I am starting to divorce the two Yuris' deaths from the cedar tree. I don't know if they had anything to do with the cedar at all, aside from being positioned at its base after their deaths. Is there really evidence that one or both them climbed the tree? Fell from the tree? Cut a window of branches so they could watch the tent? How about being burnt in the little campfire that was not well-tended and only burned for 90 minutes? I am moving them away from the cedar and looking at other possibilities.
Same with the 4 in the ravine. Their injuries killed them quickly, so it's possible they died elsewhere, were brought to the ravine after death and positioned.
Hopefully, thinking like this can open up more options for what happened, instead of binding my thinking to the cedar and some kind of snow dump at the ravine.
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General Discussion / Re: How long can you live with a cracked skull?
« Last post by Axelrod on July 14, 2025, 04:07:31 AM »Translation of article in Hebrew newspaper.
this is about the possible transfer of Rustem Slobodin or Kolya Thibault after a head injury.
(https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3408295,00.html)
Boy who was attacked at the "From Russia with Love" festival has died.
(Avi Cohen and Achiya Rabad Published: June 04, 2007, 08:30)
About two weeks ago, 17-year-old Pavel Kozlov returned to his room at the boarding school after being beaten in a fight in Yehoshua Park. The next day, he lost consciousness and was hospitalized at Rambam Hospital, where he died last night.
Pavel Kozlov, the 17-year-old boy who was attacked by youths during the "From Russia with Love" event in Ganei Yehoshua in Tel Aviv about two weeks ago, died early Monday morning at Rambam Hospital in Haifa. Kozlov's body, which had been fighting for life for the past two weeks, was transferred to the Institute of Forensic Medicine to determine the circumstances of his death.
The tragic incident that ended in Kozlov's death occurred more than two weeks ago, on Thursday, as a result of a fight during the annual "From Russia with Love" music festival. The boy involved in the fight returned to the Yemin Ord boarding school near Zichron Yaakov and refused medical treatment.
Kozlov was found in his room by friends around 11:00 a.m. the next day, suffering from seizures. Paramedic Roy Otmazgin, who arrived at the emergency room from MDA Carmel Hospital, reported that the boy was unconscious and had obvious signs of violence on his body, especially "flashlights" in his eyes.
"Examinations revealed data indicating severe head trauma," Otmazgin said. "He had hemorrhages all over his body, especially in the eye area. We realized that he was conscious last night and refused to be evacuated for medical care."
Kozlov was transferred to Rambam Hospital in Haifa on a ventilator in serious condition.
Kozlov was hospitalized in the neurosurgical intensive care unit and underwent surgery to reduce intracranial pressure. "We hoped that he would recover, since he briefly regained consciousness after the surgery," the hospital said. However, the young man soon lost consciousness again, never regained consciousness, and died from complications caused by the injury.
So far, police have arrested one person on suspicion of assault – Sergei Tenshko, a 21-year-old soldier from Haifa. It is assumed that he and Kozlov had known each other since the time when Tanashko spent several weeks living in a boarding school.
The Ministry of Education reported that the general director of the ministry had appointed an investigative committee to investigate the circumstances that led to the injury and death of the student.
this is about the possible transfer of Rustem Slobodin or Kolya Thibault after a head injury.
(https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3408295,00.html)
Boy who was attacked at the "From Russia with Love" festival has died.
(Avi Cohen and Achiya Rabad Published: June 04, 2007, 08:30)
About two weeks ago, 17-year-old Pavel Kozlov returned to his room at the boarding school after being beaten in a fight in Yehoshua Park. The next day, he lost consciousness and was hospitalized at Rambam Hospital, where he died last night.
Pavel Kozlov, the 17-year-old boy who was attacked by youths during the "From Russia with Love" event in Ganei Yehoshua in Tel Aviv about two weeks ago, died early Monday morning at Rambam Hospital in Haifa. Kozlov's body, which had been fighting for life for the past two weeks, was transferred to the Institute of Forensic Medicine to determine the circumstances of his death.
The tragic incident that ended in Kozlov's death occurred more than two weeks ago, on Thursday, as a result of a fight during the annual "From Russia with Love" music festival. The boy involved in the fight returned to the Yemin Ord boarding school near Zichron Yaakov and refused medical treatment.
Kozlov was found in his room by friends around 11:00 a.m. the next day, suffering from seizures. Paramedic Roy Otmazgin, who arrived at the emergency room from MDA Carmel Hospital, reported that the boy was unconscious and had obvious signs of violence on his body, especially "flashlights" in his eyes.
"Examinations revealed data indicating severe head trauma," Otmazgin said. "He had hemorrhages all over his body, especially in the eye area. We realized that he was conscious last night and refused to be evacuated for medical care."
Kozlov was transferred to Rambam Hospital in Haifa on a ventilator in serious condition.
Kozlov was hospitalized in the neurosurgical intensive care unit and underwent surgery to reduce intracranial pressure. "We hoped that he would recover, since he briefly regained consciousness after the surgery," the hospital said. However, the young man soon lost consciousness again, never regained consciousness, and died from complications caused by the injury.
So far, police have arrested one person on suspicion of assault – Sergei Tenshko, a 21-year-old soldier from Haifa. It is assumed that he and Kozlov had known each other since the time when Tanashko spent several weeks living in a boarding school.
The Ministry of Education reported that the general director of the ministry had appointed an investigative committee to investigate the circumstances that led to the injury and death of the student.
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General Discussion / The Four
« Last post by ahabmyth on July 13, 2025, 11:26:57 PM »So as the three attempt to reach the tent and the two by the Cedar try to keep warm by the dying embers, the four are looking for fuel, they are in hearing range of the Cedar two ,tragically Lyuda falls through a cornice and lands on rocks Brignolle manages to grab her arms and attempts to pull her from the icy water Lyuda hangs onto the rocks while Brignolle finds a place to wade into the water but falls into the creek trying to save her. Seeing the two friends in trouble the other two rush over to help, Brignolle appears to be unconscious .The two walk down into the freezing water and try dragging Brignolle out but they too succumb to the cold and freezing water. Acting like a dam all three are slowly washed together in a deadly embrace.
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General Discussion / Re: So I asked AI about the topic...
« Last post by ZuriDog on July 13, 2025, 10:15:35 PM »If Zolo called for help from a great distance, he would be in that snowy area where prints were not found, but it was far away and he was calling into the wind. Cutting the tent apart is reckless except for the most extreme situation, or it may have ripped on its own after abandonment. If the idea is that there was a descent to the forest for wood and there was an intention for all of them to return to the tent, they would be remiss not to bring wood and fashion a sledge for the wounded. They could not do so. Depending on one's point of view, having everyone go a mile downhill to rescue a friend may be a heroism, or not. Heroism with forthought is better than heroism with afterthought. From what we know in the case files, the group descended to the forest ill equiped for first aid, wound binding and transportation. Indeed, none of these things are supported in the records. The 20/20 hindsight comment is good. It is also a source of frustration. There were nine intelligent people on that slope.
i agree, they were nine intelligent and experienced hikers - but nine people died that night, so i think we can agree mistakes were made. you said it yourself "Cutting the tent apart is reckless except for the most extreme situation". that is what i am proposing, that is one of the big questions of the case isn't it? what could make 9 hikers leave the tent under dressed? - a rescue mission, one of their own is in a life and death situation. And I already suggested Dorochenko sounds just like the type of person to respond to danger without considering danger to himself. he had already confronted a bear. none of the others might think cutting the tent is a great idea - but i don't think they stopped to vote on it - Dorochenko made that decision for them. we are looking at this with the benefit of hindsight. who knows, perhaps this was even the reason why there was a brief scuffle later on, someone having a go at Dorochenko for slashing the tent.. also i think the idea that everyone left the tent under dressed is a bit of a generalization - Doroshenko did, Krivonishenko (who had a bit of a short fuse) and the third person is Dyatlov - as the group leader he had to be at the front of what was happening, he had no choice but to go after them. the remaining hikers were actually not that badly dressed - at least it was excusable, given the false sense from the warm wind, and the premise of only having to leave a short time.
I know of instances in places like Canada, in the middle of winter, when a car breaks down and the driver sees a town off in the distance and walks off to get help - only to be found frozen. why not turn back? why didn't he just flash his lights, why, why, why - because people also do tend to think i'll be fine, i'm with friends, we are all going together, we will be safe
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General Discussion / Re: So I asked AI about the topic...
« Last post by GlennM on July 13, 2025, 07:09:31 PM »If Zolo called for help from a great distance, he would be in that snowy area where prints were not found, but it was far away and he was calling into the wind. Cutting the tent apart is reckless except for the most extreme situation, or it may have ripped on its own after abandonment. If the idea is that there was a descent to the forest for wood and there was an intention for all of them to return to the tent, they would be remiss not to bring wood and fashion a sledge for the wounded. They could not do so. Depending on one's point of view, having everyone go a mile downhill to rescue a friend may be a heroism, or not. Heroism with forthought is better than heroism with afterthought. From what we know in the case files, the group descended to the forest ill equiped for first aid, wound binding and transportation. Indeed, none of these things are supported in the records. The 20/20 hindsight comment is good. It is also a source of frustration. There were nine intelligent people on that slope.
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General Discussion / Re: So I asked AI about the topic...
« Last post by ZuriDog on July 13, 2025, 11:52:49 AM »We would expect to see one set of uphill prints from Zolo. We would not expect the tent to be slashed open in two places in order to bring an injured party into an opened damaged tent. We would expect an intact tent which would shelter the wounded and be quiclky stowed to retreat to Vizhay. We would expect cordage for tying and evidence of a sledge for returning the disabled to camp. We would expect some sort bundled solution for bringing firewood along with the injured to the tent. We should consider that any breakage of limbs or a lookout in the cedar was both old and done long before by Mansi as a hunting blind. We might expect that rescuers might have descended in two groups, one immediate and poorly dressed for first aid and another later one better dressed and equipped for the uphill haul. The latter group would need skis, blankets, rope, fluids and climbing poles at the minimum.
AI works on an if then else type logic. If the elses run out it concludes it has the solution.
It parrots what is already known. We hope AI generates a creative, not deductive solution. It is good at the how of things, not the why of things. That said, it is stimulating a nice discussion on this thread.
Why should we expect to have found Zolotarev's prints? None of the uphill prints were found, even though we know at least three hikers tried to return to the tent. their prints were also gone. Why should Zolotarev's remain?
Hindsight is 20/20, now we know the extent of Tibo's injuries, but Zolotarev didn't, and the hikers at the tent certainly didn't. If the call for help was that he just needed a couple of guys to help him bring Tibo, there's no reason yet to think that a sled will need to be built. So they left without rope.
At the scene, when it became apparent Tibo was far worse than expected, it may be already getting dark, they don't have much time... why attempt to build a sled? Zolotarev knew he could survive the night in a shelter, he likely had survived nights like these before - people resort to what they know works, specially given little time. also they hadn't brought rope with them.
Why should the hikers suffering of hypothermia be expected to carry wood back with them? Wouldn't it make more sense for the well dress hikers, after leaving Tibo and Zolotarev at the shelter, to take wood back with them then?
If they had built a sled instead of a shelter, would we then not be arguing why had they not simply constructed a shelter?
There is more than one possible course of action in any scenario, they can only choose one, and stick to it.
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General Discussion / Re: So I asked AI about the topic...
« Last post by GlennM on July 13, 2025, 09:26:26 AM »We would expect to see one set of uphill prints from Zolo. We would not expect the tent to be slashed open in two places in order to bring an injured party into an opened damaged tent. We would expect an intact tent which would shelter the wounded and be quiclky stowed to retreat to Vizhay. We would expect cordage for tying and evidence of a sledge for returning the disabled to camp. We would expect some sort bundled solution for bringing firewood along with the injured to the tent. We should consider that any breakage of limbs or a lookout in the cedar was both old and done long before by Mansi as a hunting blind. We might expect that rescuers might have descended in two groups, one immediate and poorly dressed for first aid and another later one better dressed and equipped for the uphill haul. The latter group would need skis, blankets, rope, fluids and climbing poles at the minimum.
AI works on an if then else type logic. If the elses run out it concludes it has the solution.
It parrots what is already known. We hope AI generates a creative, not deductive solution. It is good at the how of things, not the why of things. That said, it is stimulating a nice discussion on this thread.
AI works on an if then else type logic. If the elses run out it concludes it has the solution.
It parrots what is already known. We hope AI generates a creative, not deductive solution. It is good at the how of things, not the why of things. That said, it is stimulating a nice discussion on this thread.