May 06, 2021, 11:44:16 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

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General Discussion / The footprints, the footprints ...
« Last post by Earthland on Today at 11:28:01 AM »
I'm a novice and haven't looked through all the materials. From the outset, what struck me as most telling was that "footprints left by the group everyone seemed to descent with relative ease." It struck me, because from a psychological point of view, cutting the tent from inside and leaving it without proper clothes, and then strolling away with relative ease, are completely at odds with each other.

What does the "relative ease" mean exactly, and how can one deduce it from the footsteps? Does it mean that no-one had trouble with walking - ie, no-one was badly injured - or does it mean that there was no rushing away in panic, as if they were just talking a walk in a park?

If the latter is really true (and not only seemingly so, let's say, because the weather conditions were such that it was impossible to move in a different manner), that really leaves only two options in my view. Someone either forced them to leave and kept them under gunpoint, or there was some sort of group lunacy taking place.
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Murdered / Re: The "Mystery Man" photo
« Last post by salvaje20 on May 04, 2021, 08:14:44 PM »
Welcome to the forum.
Here is my opinion: https://dyatlovpass.com/theories#yeti

You have to look at the photo together with the previous frames: https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-thibeaux-brignolle
Tibo is playing fool in the snow, then goes to pee and someone not adjusting the focus snaps a photo of him. See the trail leading from the photographer to the creature? This is Tibo's track going into the woods to pee.


This is Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle (Tibo)


Thank you for taking the time to answer!
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Murdered / Re: The "Mystery Man" photo
« Last post by salvaje20 on May 04, 2021, 08:12:24 PM »
Yes I agree with Dona.

To explain more, if you look here you can see the photos he took in order. The figure, as much as it's possible to make any statement about such an out of focus photo, seems to be wearing trousers and outerwear of similar tones to Tibo in the previous photos. And the setting also seems similar.

So, this is the most logical explanation.

If you look at his other photos, some of them are also out of focus and some seem to lack any subject at all so the "mystery man" one is not that out of the ordinary in this sense...


Also, welcome to the Forum, Salvaje!

Thank you!
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General Discussion / Re: Thoughts on the book
« Last post by RidgeWatcher on May 04, 2021, 05:13:31 PM »
Thank you, Professor WAB and Teddy,

This really explained the nutrition and wise caloric intake during that time. I can't imagine going anywhere without cheese! But after you explained the wasted effort in the sub-arctic I can see the wasted energy. The Dyatlov Skiers were true athletes to be commended.

I always thought there was something strange about that platform cache down by the Auspiya, it never made sense to me but in the book it made a lot more sense to me that the strange was up on Kholat Syakul where there would be a lot less wildlife foraging through the drift snow and ice.

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General Discussion / Re: Why move the bodies?
« Last post by Dona on May 04, 2021, 04:14:52 PM »
I'm going to stick with the Murder Theory.. As ridiculous as it sounds on the face of it, that's where the evidence has led me..
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General Discussion / Re: Thoughts on the book
« Last post by WAB on May 04, 2021, 01:19:21 PM »
There were 55kg of products found in the storage. Maslennikov said that the distribution of food was 1200g / person / day = 10.8kg / day / group (after Yudin left) i.e. in the food in the labaz would last for the remaining 9 members of the group for 5 days.
 
Calculations in the following table show that Dyatlov group lacked about 40 kg of food which according to same calculations would last 3-4 days. The main question is that the items found in the labaz don't add up.



Generally speaking, "judging by the run-up," I expected a more professional approach to the analysis of such components of the Dyatlov hike. As they say in scientific circles, this product analysis is reminiscent of the "Spherical Horse in a Vacuum. There is such a concept. The easiest way to illustrate it is with a picture:

)

This means that this is either amateurish reasoning, or there are such inaccuracies there that reduce the meaning of what is said by at least half. If you go to the table and its content, such errors in assumptions and comparisons are obvious:

1.   They had loin or ham, or, more likely, the usual country pork bacon (in Western countries it is called "bacon," only there the amount of animal fat is much less) for daytime snacks and for such occasions of a woodless overnight stay. They would not plan for it in advance, but if it happened, they did it to the best of their ability. They had slices of sliced loin (I'll use that term for anything that might have been there in fact) found in their tent, both used (the skins from them were mentioned) and sliced and not yet had time to be used.
The normal rate for these uses is about 50 grams (0.11 lb). I'm writing approximately, because that's the norm for calculation, but it's impossible to cut it so precisely, it turns out that someone will get a little less, someone will get a little more, but they don't make a problem out of this. It is unlikely it will be used daily, it is usually used in one or two days. So you can agree with the calculation of 30 grams per day for 1 person.

2.   120 grams (0.265 lb) of stew per day for 1 person is a lot by the standards and practices of the time. And now, too, although the stew nowadays in travel at this level try not to take - it is replaced by freeze-dried meat, which is at least 4 times lighter. They took a maximum of 2 cans of 330 grams (0.728 lb) at one time, or 1 can of 560 grams (1.235 lb). Most likely that's what they took because it has the best gross/net ratio. I'm talking about the weight of the iron can itself. Total, it turns out 66 (0.146 lb) or 56 grams (0.123 lb) for 1 person 1 time.

3.   Cheese in winter travels try not to take at all, because it freezes in the cold and its use does not give a gain in calories, because you need to melt the frozen water if you want to eat it. By the way, I do not remember that the search participants mentioned cheese when they wrote about food.

4.   Oil (butter) on a winter trip is a major metabolic energy source. It is considered that 50 grams (0.11 lb) of butter per day per person is not enough. At low temperatures, the rate is brought up to 70 ... 80 grams (0.154 ... 0.176 lb) per day. So here it is necessary to increase it even more. For the remaining 10 days of the trip, they left 4 kg (8.818 lb). of oil in storage, which is about 44 grams (0.097 lb). per person per time. Additionally, they took some more on the Otorten. I think that they took it with some reserve, because all unused products will be used as additional (or specially arranged)on the route. Even taking these calculations into account, the conclusion is that they had not yet come to the conclusion that they needed to increase the oil ration. That was still ahead of them, but in 1964, when I went to the Circumpolar Urals, it was already in practice. True, it was not in the Sverdlovsk groups, but in Moscow.

5.   25 grams of salt (0.05512 lb). -This is a very excessive amount. The normal rate is 10 (0.02205 lb). to 17 grams (0.03748 lb).
6.    As far as I understand, by the term "porridge" here you mean cereals for cooking them? The norms for them are different, but at the time they tried to stick to these norms:
- buckwheat groats = 70 grams (0.154 lb.). per person per single cooking.
- Rice = 60 grams (0.11 lb). per person per single cooking.
- oats = 45 grams (0.11 lb). per person per meal.
-oatmeal = 40 grams (0.11 lb). per person per meal.
- This may also include pasta = 70...100 grams (0.154...0.22 lb) per person per single cook.
I found my 1962 instructor school outline that gave such norms. In all the time since then in my practice of difficult travel, the norms have hardly changed and have given a positive estimate in view of the difficulty of the trip. It should be clear that this is not a picnic where you can eat until you burst, but anything more than the minimum necessary norm must be carried on your back, which only increases the strain and energy expenditure, hence requiring more nutrition. On such journeys often lose their original weight when they "eat up" the accumulated reserve of energy. Gone are the fat tissues, for example.
Then if you count the average per day, and then multiply by all the days of the trip, it turns out: 70 + 60 +45 + 40 + 90 = 305 : 5 = 61 grams (0.134 lb). per day for 1 person. The table shows 200 grams (0.44 lb), so I do not understand, where did it come from?

7.    Dyatlov's group took soups and kissels in briquettes, which were then very widely used, weighing 200 and 220 grams. (0.44 & 0.485 lb).  For their group they had to use 2 or 3 briquettes (a briquette was calculated in the city for 4 people, although it was often used for 3 people in the conditions of such a trip), even at the rate of 10 people. That is, 1 person at a time is 66 grams (0.146 lb). In the table the rate is a little overstated, but it's not essential, although if you calculate it the way it was in practice, it may turn out (I'm sure it will) that there was not a shortage of products, but a "surplus". Of course they would have eaten it all anyway, but if you do the theory, you have to do it competently and accurately.
The compotes they took with them were a set of dried fruit, which in winter is not very convenient to prepare. It is a long process that follows the fact that you have to melt the snow into water, which you also need a lot of, which turns out to be very long in total and makes it impossible to do it often. Plus it requires a relatively large amount of sugar. I have no knowledge that they took this on this trip (I saw no record or recollection that there was dried fruit). The very vague record in the log of food availability in the stall suggests that there is no accurate record of a particular compote. It is quite possible that they used dried fruit from this compote as a daily supplemental feed. But there is no information on the weight fraction of that dried fruit in that section, so I wouldn't take that ingredient as even with the soursop (there were soup-like briquettes) since the usability is very different and the weight ratios are also very different. So the proportion of compote has to be measured by the rate of sourdough. They could only make it on the route two or three times during the entire trip. Otherwise it would have been a large and unnecessary expenditure of labor that provided no gain in application. Rather, it is an echo of summer travel that is difficult to apply to winter travel.
 
9.   Cocoa, coffee and tea. We tried not to take coffee on such trips, either. No one forbade it, but compared to a good tea, it did not give any advantages, and the difficulty of preparation was obvious. They could take (and I think they did) a little coffee, but only, as they say, for the soul. At the same time 20 grams of tea per person for 1 time is a bit much, because they used 1 pack of 75 grams at a time. But the tea was usually made in the morning and in the evening. In total it was 15 grams for 10 people. There were packets of tea made in China on sale
 


And a very common hour of Georgian.
 


The other varieties, could only be bought in specialized stores, and only in Moscow. No one has told me yet that there was such a store in Sverdlovsk at the time.
Chinese tea had to be brewed very carefully, otherwise it was very light in color and was not liked. Georgian tea was weaker in quality, but not in color, but there was always a lot of it, unlike the Chinese tea, so I think they only had it that way.
20 grams (0.044 lb) of cocoa per person for 1 time is also a lot. Back then they used (I remember it very well) packs of 100 grams (0.22 lb) of Zolotoy Yarlyk cocoa from the Moscow factory Krasny Oktyabr.
 


Only one packet was brewed at a time. That was enough for 10 360cc mugs. If they needed extra cocoa, such as for a warming pad or flask that they carried on them and then used on their day break, they used a second packet. It is quite possible that they could also buy a big tin can of cocoa from the factory named by Anastas Mikoyan (he had been the Minister of Trade a bit earlier and was good at introducing new and needed products into the USSR trade at that time). They were 250 gram (0.551 lb) cans. 
 


. But they only used ½ of a can at 1 time to make them. Then you get a one-time rate of 12.5 grams(0.02756 lb). But cocoa was not made every day.  I think they had to make it 3...4 times during the whole trip. On the night before February 01 they cooked cocoa, it is written about it in the report Tempalov, in the form of a reference to the fact that they found a flask with the remains of cocoa.

10.   The norm for milk powder (or cream) has always been 20 grams (0.04409 lb) per 1 person at 1 time. I can't even imagine when they would use it twice a lazy? Unless in the evening (or in the morning if they had an "inverted" peeing system) they could dilute it in addition to the buckwheat porridge. But that wasn't every day either, and even if you imagine they could use it no more than once every 3 days, you still don't get the norm of 20 grams (0.04409 lb) per person at 1 time. To dilute powdered milk in good condition in the cold takes a lot of effort and "intelligence". Especially by the end of the trip do not do it. And so there is fatigue of all kinds, so save labor costs.
11. I have noodles included in the "pasta", but 30 grams (0.06614 lb) of noodles for 1 person at 1 time is not enough. Even for a very liquid soup, you need at least 50 grams (0.11 lb). But to "fill up" the total weight, let it stay, there will still be excess food in this calculation.  grin1

12.   300 grams of breadcrumbs is the limit on use, although they will be eaten anyway. It will always and everywhere there are such journeys. However, dried breadcrumbs have the property that they have a large volume at a small weight (which can be difficult to fit intelligently in a backpack) and they crumble, which reduces the efficiency of their use. There is a certain amount of compromise needed. Norm of dried breadcrumbs can be left as a calculation on the maximum.
13.   Sugar. This is the most difficult question. Sugar can not be counted as a norm per day to make products only for tea, coffee cocoa, kissel and compote. Sugar is very often used as a supplement on crossings. Back then there was still very little use of dried fruit and often issued sugar not a snack during the day. Pictured are. 
(
Zina hands out sugar in the parking lot for "refreshment" during the transition. So if you take the norm of 4 pieces of pressed sugar at 1 time (that's 48 grams), and such times we get 3 a day (breakfast - tea or cocoa; snack instead of lunch), the total is 146 grams. In addition, sugar was usually used as an additive to milk porridge. But there they used 20 grams (0.04409 lb) per person at a time. However, one must take into account and subtract the fact that the use of halva and condensed milk (point below) allowed for no sugar in these cases. This was approximately (from practice) 25 ... 30% of all cases. Total, we can assume that 146 grams (0.322 lb) (main application) + 15 grams (0.03307 lb) (additional application with 25% deduction) were required per day. For sugar, there had to be a reserve in case the need for additional nutrition increased in difficult areas, losses for loss (e.g. soggy and melted sugar). Therefore it is possible to allow 200 grams (0.441 lb) for each day for 1 person, but this would also be a calculation on the absolute maximum.

14.    Condensed milk and halva. I did not see where they had records about halva, but let's say that they ate it on the first days (1 or 2 times) and took it with them to Otorten - 1 time.  Then they should have used 1 pack (270 grams -0.595 lb) for 4 or they were more comfortable using halva for 3 people 1 pack. Because they had 9 people. That makes 9 packs of 270 grams = 2,430 grams. Then you have to take away the sugar of 81 people X 48 grams = ~ 3800 grams.  They should have had condensed milk in 380 gram cans. This is a standard can according to the state standard. However, as all other products were given on the same basis.  The condensed milk was also used as a whole can at 1 time. Otherwise, it was difficult and inconvenient to pack and carry an open can. In addition, some of that product was lost there, so it wasn't done that way, but used to the exact unit of packaging. An additional advantage was that it was easier to count products and assign quantities to be used that way.
There were still cans of condensed milk of 3.05 kg (6.724 lb) on sale (in those days), but they were inconvenient to carry and use. Therefore, although there was a big loss in weight due to the iron cans, but it was much more convenient and reliable to use. Such cans were used by the participants of the search, but they were based on a stationary camp. We found remnants of such cans in the 2009 expedition, at the site of the 1959 Auspia search camp. On this basis (as well as finding the remains of batteries for the radio station) the exact location of this camp was established.
15.    I will not change the column "other", because it is not clear what is meant by this. If it is pepper, bay leaf and other spices, as well as vitamins (although no one remembered about them either) and other things, then we can leave it like that.  And if it were to be ingredients such as garlic, candy, the tangerine mentioned in the "unknown diary" and other things, then 20 grams (0.04409 lb) per 1 person per day would still be a lot. For 20 days and 10 people that works out to 4 kG (8.818 lb), which is critical for unaccounted for or extra foods. If it is personal weight, then 400 grams (0.8818 lb) per person will not work. Someone will have to carry a whole kilogram or more.

Of course, there was some confusion about food in this group. As they themselves wrote, they took 3 kg of salt (6.614 lb), which makes 15 grams (0.146 lb) per person per day for the entire trip of 20 days and for 10 people. This is at the upper level of consumption, which in general rarely occurs, especially on ski trips. Usually 10...12 grams(0.022...0.02646 lb) is quite sufficient. Although half of this amount they left the labase (stock). Nevertheless, this is an excessive amount. But this is a consequence of too much haste and confusion, which is typical for students when they take exams and at the same time prepare something for the trip. It's hard to do everything optimally. In addition, the young age and inexperience in some domestic matters makes such mistakes.
If you calculate everything, you get the following picture: the total daily norm for 1 person in reality is: 831 grams (1.832 lb) per day for 1 person. For convenience, this can be rounded upwards, that is, to 900 grams (1.984 lb) per day per person. Then for the 20 days counted in the table (I don't understand where this figure comes from, if even by maximum calculations they had to plan for 16 days?) would be (166.2 kg or 366.408 lb) or 180 kg (396.832 lb) if you round up the daily rate. Since they were already on a journey for 6 days (after Vijaya, they ate only from their own food), so we must subtract 9kG or 19.842 lb (10 people) for 3 days = 27 kg (69.525 lb), and 8.1 kg or 17.857 lb (9 people) X 3 days = 24, 3 kg (53.572 lb), the total is 51.3 kg (113.097 lb). They left 61, 6 kg (69.525 lb) of food in the warehouse. It turns out that 112.9 kg (248.902 lb), out of 166.2 (366.408 lb), or 180 kg (396.832 lb), the balance is 53.3 kg (118.829 lb), This is what they had to take for the 3 days trip to Otten and back. Then it turns out that it is 5, 92 kG (13.051 lb) per participant or 2.97 kG (6.548 lb) of food per day per person, which is an excess of almost 2.5 times the practical norm calculated from practice at most.

So not only did they not have a shortage of food, but they had a surplus for 1.5 days.  grin1
If you do not use jokes, it turns out that they ate even more modestly than I thought and did not find in this position any crime or lack. Although, to be honest, on such trips you always want to eat, and a lot.  grin1
It is necessary to know how to subordinate their desires to the circumstances in such events.
The standards and methods of calculation I took from my own practice of more than 100 different trips (more than 60 were winter trips - on skis) and some specifications I got from those who were on the peaks Dyatlov in 1959. Most of all Peter Bartolomei, professor at UPI University, and Vladislav Karelin, doctor of special metallurgy, helped me the most. They both (like me) have a master's degree in such journeys.
It should be noted that there were experiments in nutrition on such trips, when the ration was calculated at 400 grams (0.882 lb) per day for 1 person. In December 1979 and January 1980 we went to the Polar Urals (this is north of Vorkuta) "in polar night", there our female part (3 people) and three men tried to use such a ration of 400 grams (0.882 lb). However we (3 other men) have refused such experiments and have made our own ration of 750 grams (1.653 lb), which we carried as our own cargo, against the public cargo, which was calculated very strictly for the whole event. On the route we were 13 days and walked more than 200 km. We started the route from the settlement of Halmer-Yu (it doesn't exist now), and finished in the settlement of Amderma on the shore of the Kara Sea. There were interesting psychological moments after the end of this trip, connected with restoration of a diet regime after this trip.
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General Discussion / Re: Why move the bodies?
« Last post by Dona on May 04, 2021, 12:03:22 PM »
The strength in the tree theory is that  they do appear to all be sleeping at the time.. Lined up sleeping . No denying that..  But in order for the theory to work the tree would have to have been perfectly lined up to fall perfectly lined up on perfectly lined up hikers.. It is possible..  Not very plausible IMO..

 Possibly the tree that the tent was tied to was unstable and  fell over onto them from the weight of the tent hanging on it.. That might set up  good alignment..

But if it was a natural phenomena, who would move the tent and why
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General Discussion / Re: Nigel's thoughts on the book
« Last post by Nigel Evans on May 04, 2021, 10:26:25 AM »
Its the neatest theory I've heard and a worthy rival to WABs theory. I place little value on much else I've seen in 15 years.

Rolls eyes.  lol4

Nigel, seriously, start a topic where you can trash my book but leave at least one place where I can reply constructively with information I have. You are not welcome on this board. Open another one. Can you at least give me this for the sake of all the work I am doing?
Your hatred can only chase me out of my own forum. I do have information that other people find useful.
Leave this board PLEASE.


Will do, can i assume that the dp photos are public domain?




Best to all.
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General Discussion / Re: Second Severniye
« Last post by eurocentric on May 04, 2021, 09:20:50 AM »
Thanks for the information WAB.

I had wondered why the third photo showed the huts and then in the next photo the site seemed to have been cleared - so it's two different places.

Found the photo's in a Polish forum. Post #410 -

http://forum.fortyck.pl/topic/1156-tragedia-na-przeleczy-diatlowa-12-luty-1959-r/page-21

If you click on the colourised images there should be a permanent link in the address bar. They're both uploaded to the image server this site uses. Feel free to reuse them.
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General Discussion / Re: Thoughts on the book
« Last post by Teddy on May 04, 2021, 09:00:58 AM »
This topic was split in two. You can follow Nigel here → Nigel's thoughts on the book
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