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General Discussion / Re: How long can you live with a cracked skull?

« Last post by Axelrod on Today at 04:07:31 AM »

Translation of article in Hebrew newspaper.
this is about the possible transfer of Rustem Slobodin or Kolya Thibault after a head injury.

(https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3408295,00.html)

Boy who was attacked at the "From Russia with Love" festival has died.
(Avi Cohen and Achiya Rabad Published: June 04, 2007, 08:30)

About two weeks ago, 17-year-old Pavel Kozlov returned to his room at the boarding school after being beaten in a fight in Yehoshua Park. The next day, he lost consciousness and was hospitalized at Rambam Hospital, where he died last night.

Pavel Kozlov, the 17-year-old boy who was attacked by youths during the "From Russia with Love" event in Ganei Yehoshua in Tel Aviv about two weeks ago, died early Monday morning at Rambam Hospital in Haifa. Kozlov's body, which had been fighting for life for the past two weeks, was transferred to the Institute of Forensic Medicine to determine the circumstances of his death.

The tragic incident that ended in Kozlov's death occurred more than two weeks ago, on Thursday, as a result of a fight during the annual "From Russia with Love" music festival. The boy involved in the fight returned to the Yemin Ord boarding school near Zichron Yaakov and refused medical treatment.

Kozlov was found in his room by friends around 11:00 a.m. the next day, suffering from seizures. Paramedic Roy Otmazgin, who arrived at the emergency room from MDA Carmel Hospital, reported that the boy was unconscious and had obvious signs of violence on his body, especially "flashlights" in his eyes.

"Examinations revealed data indicating severe head trauma," Otmazgin said. "He had hemorrhages all over his body, especially in the eye area. We realized that he was conscious last night and refused to be evacuated for medical care."

Kozlov was transferred to Rambam Hospital in Haifa on a ventilator in serious condition.

Kozlov was hospitalized in the neurosurgical intensive care unit and underwent surgery to reduce intracranial pressure. "We hoped that he would recover, since he briefly regained consciousness after the surgery," the hospital said. However, the young man soon lost consciousness again, never regained consciousness, and died from complications caused by the injury.

So far, police have arrested one person on suspicion of assault – Sergei Tenshko, a 21-year-old soldier from Haifa. It is assumed that he and Kozlov had known each other since the time when Tanashko spent several weeks living in a boarding school.

The Ministry of Education reported that the general director of the ministry had appointed an investigative committee to investigate the circumstances that led to the injury and death of the student.

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General Discussion / The Four

« Last post by ahabmyth on July 13, 2025, 11:26:57 PM »

So as the three attempt to reach the tent and the two by the Cedar try to keep warm by the dying embers, the four are looking for fuel, they are in hearing range of the Cedar two ,tragically Lyuda falls through a cornice and lands on rocks Brignolle manages to grab her arms and attempts to pull her from the icy water Lyuda hangs onto the rocks while Brignolle finds a place to wade into the water but falls into the creek trying to save her. Seeing the two friends in trouble the other two rush over to help, Brignolle appears to be unconscious .The two walk down into the freezing water and try dragging Brignolle out but they too succumb to the cold and freezing water. Acting like a dam all three are slowly washed together in a deadly embrace.

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General Discussion / Re: So I asked AI about the topic...

« Last post by ZuriDog on July 13, 2025, 10:15:35 PM »

If Zolo called for help from a great distance, he would be in that snowy area where prints were not found, but it was far away and he was calling into the wind. Cutting the tent apart is reckless except for the most extreme situation, or it may have ripped on its own after abandonment. If the idea is that there was a descent to the forest for wood and there was an intention for all of them to return to the tent, they would be remiss not to bring wood and fashion a sledge for the wounded. They could not do so. Depending on one's point of view,  having everyone go a mile downhill to rescue a friend may be a heroism, or not. Heroism with forthought is better than heroism with afterthought. From what we know in the case files, the group descended to the forest ill equiped for first aid, wound binding and transportation. Indeed, none of these things are supported in the records. The 20/20 hindsight comment is good. It is also a source of frustration. There were nine intelligent people on that slope.

i agree, they were nine intelligent and  experienced hikers - but nine people died that night, so i think we can agree mistakes were made. you said it yourself "Cutting the tent apart is reckless except for the most extreme situation". that is what i am proposing, that is one of the big questions of the case isn't it? what could make 9 hikers leave the tent under dressed? - a rescue mission, one of their own is in a life and death situation. And I already suggested Dorochenko sounds just like the type of person to respond to danger without considering danger to himself. he had already confronted a bear. none of the others might think cutting the tent is a great idea - but i don't think they stopped to vote on it - Dorochenko made that decision for them. we are looking at this with the benefit of hindsight. who knows, perhaps this was even the reason why there was a brief scuffle later on, someone having a go at Dorochenko for slashing the tent..  also i think the idea that everyone left the tent under dressed is a bit of a generalization - Doroshenko did, Krivonishenko (who had a bit of a short fuse) and the third person is Dyatlov - as the group leader he had to be at the front of what was happening, he had no choice but to go after them. the remaining hikers were actually not that badly dressed - at least it was excusable, given the false sense from the warm wind, and the premise of only having to leave a short time.
I know of instances in places like Canada, in the middle of winter, when a car breaks down and the driver sees a town off in the distance and walks off to get help - only to be found frozen. why not turn back? why didn't he just flash his lights, why, why, why - because people also do tend to think i'll be fine, i'm with friends, we are all going together, we will be safe

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General Discussion / Re: So I asked AI about the topic...

« Last post by GlennM on July 13, 2025, 07:09:31 PM »

If Zolo called for help from a great distance, he would be in that snowy area where prints were not found, but it was far away and he was calling into the wind. Cutting the tent apart is reckless except for the most extreme situation, or it may have ripped on its own after abandonment. If the idea is that there was a descent to the forest for wood and there was an intention for all of them to return to the tent, they would be remiss not to bring wood and fashion a sledge for the wounded. They could not do so. Depending on one's point of view,  having everyone go a mile downhill to rescue a friend may be a heroism, or not. Heroism with forthought is better than heroism with afterthought. From what we know in the case files, the group descended to the forest ill equiped for first aid, wound binding and transportation. Indeed, none of these things are supported in the records. The 20/20 hindsight comment is good. It is also a source of frustration. There were nine intelligent people on that slope.

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General Discussion / Re: So I asked AI about the topic...

« Last post by ZuriDog on July 13, 2025, 11:52:49 AM »

We would expect to see one set of uphill prints from Zolo. We would not expect the tent to be slashed open in two places in order to bring an injured party into an opened  damaged tent. We would expect an intact tent which would shelter the wounded and be quiclky stowed to retreat to Vizhay. We would expect cordage for tying and evidence of a sledge for returning the disabled to camp. We would expect some sort  bundled solution for bringing firewood along with the injured to the tent. We should consider that any breakage of limbs or a lookout in the cedar was both old and done long before by Mansi as a hunting blind. We might expect that rescuers might have descended in two groups,  one immediate and poorly dressed for first aid and another later one better dressed and equipped for the uphill haul. The latter group would need skis, blankets, rope, fluids and climbing poles at the minimum.

AI works on an if then else type logic. If the elses run out it concludes it has the solution.
It parrots what is already known. We hope AI generates a creative, not deductive solution. It is good at the how of things, not the why of things. That said, it is stimulating a nice discussion on this thread.

Why should we expect to have found Zolotarev's prints? None of the uphill prints were found, even though we know at least three hikers tried to return to the tent. their prints were also gone. Why should Zolotarev's remain?
Hindsight is 20/20, now we know the extent of Tibo's injuries, but Zolotarev didn't, and the hikers at the tent certainly didn't. If the call for help was that he just needed a couple of guys to help him bring Tibo, there's no reason yet to think that a sled will need to be built. So they left without rope.
At the scene, when it became apparent Tibo was far worse than expected, it may be already getting dark, they don't have much time... why attempt to build a sled? Zolotarev knew he could survive the night in a shelter, he likely had survived nights like these before - people resort to what they know works, specially given little time. also they hadn't brought rope with them.
Why should the hikers suffering of hypothermia be expected to carry wood back with them? Wouldn't it make more sense for the well dress hikers, after leaving Tibo and Zolotarev at the shelter, to take wood back with them then?
If they had built a sled instead of a shelter, would we then not be arguing why had they not simply constructed a shelter?
There is more than one possible course of action in any scenario, they can only choose one, and stick to it.

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General Discussion / Re: So I asked AI about the topic...

« Last post by GlennM on July 13, 2025, 09:26:26 AM »

We would expect to see one set of uphill prints from Zolo. We would not expect the tent to be slashed open in two places in order to bring an injured party into an opened  damaged tent. We would expect an intact tent which would shelter the wounded and be quiclky stowed to retreat to Vizhay. We would expect cordage for tying and evidence of a sledge for returning the disabled to camp. We would expect some sort  bundled solution for bringing firewood along with the injured to the tent. We should consider that any breakage of limbs or a lookout in the cedar was both old and done long before by Mansi as a hunting blind. We might expect that rescuers might have descended in two groups,  one immediate and poorly dressed for first aid and another later one better dressed and equipped for the uphill haul. The latter group would need skis, blankets, rope, fluids and climbing poles at the minimum.

AI works on an if then else type logic. If the elses run out it concludes it has the solution.
It parrots what is already known. We hope AI generates a creative, not deductive solution. It is good at the how of things, not the why of things. That said, it is stimulating a nice discussion on this thread.

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General Discussion / Re: So I asked AI about the topic...

« Last post by ZuriDog on July 13, 2025, 08:42:43 AM »

I understand, unfortunately, I do not know if asphyxiation from snow would be detectable after 3 months , in other cases I've read , certain physical components can be found in the lungs, throat and mouth.

Obviously the conclusion about the deaths can only come from what they observe but again the skills and knowledge of 1959 would not be the same as today.

I am following your timeline and modifications with interest. I can't see the group cutting the tent and/or chasing down the slope without taking more equipment though, blankets , coats , axes , ski poles etc.

However, it is interesting as to why those two have the footwear and better clothing. It suggests two proposals, that they were the first down the slope to the woods or perhaps the last , having time to dress slightly better , or a third , that that's just how they were dressed at the time of having to leave the tent.

Please continue

Zolotarev and Tibo were not just the best dressed - they were suitably dressed to be outside. Their level of dress would allow them to be outside long term, they were practically still in their day clothes, camera and everything.
Even from the early days of the investigation there were suggestions that they had been outside when tragedy struck, and that they perhaps alerted the other hikers in the tent.
So building on that - what reason could they have to be outside? judging by their level of dress, more than just a quick toilet break.
I think they were outside with a purpose, how about gathering wood? The lack of wood was mentioned in the diaries - it was also mentioned that what was on the ground was too damp to be of use.
Now we have a cedar tree, that was climbed and the dry branches removed - Tibo has a head injury which can be explained from a fall of 5 meters.
Now I think, ok, this only makes sense if they hikers had time to go gather wood, could they have set an early camp?
Looking at the map of all their camp locations - you can see they covered very little distance that day relative to other days - visibility was poor, they realized they had drifted off course.
Now it begins to look like yes, it is plausible they camped early. this gives them the opportunity to gather wood from the dry trees below, and correct their course fresh the next day.
Next, if Tibo falls and Zolotarev runs back to the tent asking for help - moving Tibo on his own is impractical.
Could the hikers slash the tent open? I think yes - hearing calls for help, perhaps they could make out Tibo is unconscious, they must go and help, someone gets impatient while another is fumbling with the tent entrance. the fastest way to respond to the emergency is to slash the tent. The tent can easily be mended, they have the tools and the skill to mend the tent, they had already mended the tent more than once already on this same trip.
So someone slashes the tent. Could they go out so unprepared? I think yes, the air felt deceptively warm - also from their diary - and Zolotarev would have explained, Tibo is right there, just at the bottom of the hill, I just need some help to bring him back. This doesn't sound like a plan to be away for long, they just have to go there and pick him up. Some put on additional layers and took torches, but some were already leaving towards the woods, not wanting to be left behind while a fellow hiker is in need they all left the tent.
To me this makes the most sense - if they thought it was just a quick out and back in then it makes sense they didn't take more things with them - there's no need, they'll be back soon.
Also the prints found, 8 - 9 people walking orderly straight towards the woods.
I think it was 8 and 'hey perhaps that's possibly a ninth cause hey he is down there so it has to be'. To me that was the 8, headed straight towards were their friend lay.
It was at a cedar that they realised that Tibo could not easily be moved, the best thing was to construct a shelter for Tibo and perhaps one or two carers to spend the night. Zolotarev would have survived nights like this during his time in the frontlines - and other theories also suggest the shelter might have been his idea. That is why the shelter they build is only big enough for a few people. They made a temporary snow-hole and filled it with branches to get Tibo off the snow while they worked.
They divided tasks - those well dressed would build the shelter, the others under-dressed remain by a fire, look after Tibo, and gather materials.
Now this answers another big question, why leave the tent? why not return immediately when the danger had passed?
Because Tibo's injury kept them there longer than they had accounted for.
The under-dressed hikers attempting to return to the tent unfortunately didn't make it.
Then the ravine group. There are many questions as to why they were not at the shelter - they had built this perfectly good shelter but were not found in it.
Because after constructing the shelter they went for Tibo, to bring him to safety. On their return they suffered their fatal injuries.
I think, they fell into the ravine while trying to come down the slope carrying Tibo, they fell, all holding onto eachother as a group. Dubinina was underneath and got the full weight on the team ontop of her, Zolotarev got somehow cushioned by Dubinina and so got the second worst injuries.
Personally I think it was this, and not snow for two reasons
1. no asphyxiation as discussed.
2. I think there was movement after the fall. Kolevatov is now the only remaining able person, i think he made a brave effort to move his friends towards the shelter. i think he was trying to help Dubinina over the ridge, maybe pulling on her arms when he realised she was lost, and left her as she was found. The others he arranged as they were found, neatly parallel to each other.  but his strength also ran out, and remained sharing body heat with his friends. until dying of hypothermia.

To me this aligns with their skill, their bravery and their loyalty. I think they made good decisions, likely decisions given the circumstances. the only mistake was to underestimate the cold and how long the rescue mission would take.

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General Discussion / Re: How long can you live with a cracked skull?

« Last post by Ziljoe on July 13, 2025, 04:41:30 AM »

I am sorry to hear such sad news Axelrod.

It would suggest that all these injuries happened in or very close to the ravine.

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General Discussion / How long can you live with a cracked skull?

« Last post by Axelrod on July 13, 2025, 03:17:03 AM »

Thoughts after discussion

Sorry, and I will try to explain where I'm coming from . IAM guessing your conclusion comes from this page

https://dyatlovpass.com/death#Thibeaux

It state's,

"From what kind of force could Thibeaux-Brignolle have received such injury?

In the conclusion, it’s shown the damage to Thibeaux-Brignolle’s head could have been the result of the throwing, fall or jettisoning of the body. I don’t believe these injuries could have been the result of Thibeaux-Brignolle simply falling from the level of his own height, i.e. falling and hitting his head. The extensive, depressed, multi-splintered (broken fornix and base of the skull) fracture could be the result of an impact of an automobile moving at high speed. This kind of trauma could have occurred if Thibeaux-Brignolle had been thrown and fallen and hit his head against rocks, ice, etc., by a gust of strong wind.

Is it possible that Thibeaux-Brignolle was hit by a rock that was in someone’s hand?

In this case, there would have been damage to the soft tissue, and this was not evident.

How long could Thibeaux-Brignolle have lived after the trauma. Could he have moved on his own, talked, etc.?

After this trauma, Thibeaux-Brignolle would have had a severe concussion; that is, he would have been in an unconscious state. Moving him would have been difficult and, close to the end, movement would not have been possible. I believe he would not have been able to move even if he had been helped. He could only have been carried or dragged. He could have shown signs of life for 2-3 hours."

My relative Moisey Axelrod himself did not suffer during the treks and during the search (only morally). But a misfortune in the form of a broken skull of the head, as was the case with Rustem Slobodin or Thibeaux, befell his nephew (his sister’s grandson):

– www.newsru.co.il/israel/4jun2007/pavel_102.html (June 4, 2007)

A young man who was beaten after the “From Russia with Love” concert has died

Police report that 17-year-old Pavel Kozlov died at the Rambam Hospital (Haifa), who was seriously injured during a fight that occurred after the “From Russia with Love” concert, held on May 17 this year in Tel Aviv’s A-Yarkon Park.

Pavel Kozlov studied at a boarding school in the north of the country. Together with his friends, he came to a concert, after which he was attacked.

About two weeks ago, police detained 21-year-old Haifa resident Sergei Tanashko, who, according to witness testimony, attacked Kozlov. He may soon be charged with murder.

The body of Pavel Kozlov was taken to the Abu Kabir Forensic Medical Center.

Hundreds of police officers ensured order during the “From Russia with Love” gala concert. Ambulances were constantly on duty near the concert venue. Despite the fact that about 150,000 young people attend each concert, the police usually manage to prevent serious incidents.

Article in Hebrew:

www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3408295,00.html

-on the issue of moving Rustem Slobodin and Thibeaux-Brignolle after a skull injury.

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General Discussion / Re: So I asked AI about the topic...

« Last post by Ziljoe on July 12, 2025, 11:44:45 PM »

Sorry, and I will try to explain where I'm coming from . IAM guessing your conclusion comes from this page

https://dyatlovpass.com/death#Thibeaux

It state's,

"From what kind of force could Thibeaux-Brignolle have received such injury?

In the conclusion, it’s shown the damage to Thibeaux-Brignolle’s head could have been the result of the throwing, fall or jettisoning of the body. I don’t believe these injuries could have been the result of Thibeaux-Brignolle simply falling from the level of his own height, i.e. falling and hitting his head. The extensive, depressed, multi-splintered (broken fornix and base of the skull) fracture could be the result of an impact of an automobile moving at high speed. This kind of trauma could have occurred if Thibeaux-Brignolle had been thrown and fallen and hit his head against rocks, ice, etc., by a gust of strong wind.

Is it possible that Thibeaux-Brignolle was hit by a rock that was in someone’s hand?

In this case, there would have been damage to the soft tissue, and this was not evident.

How long could Thibeaux-Brignolle have lived after the trauma. Could he have moved on his own, talked, etc.?

After this trauma, Thibeaux-Brignolle would have had a severe concussion; that is, he would have been in an unconscious state. Moving him would have been difficult and, close to the end, movement would not have been possible. I believe he would not have been able to move even if he had been helped. He could only have been carried or dragged. He could have shown signs of life for 2-3 hours."

As I understand this dialogue, it's someone or some expert reinterpretation of the autopsy.

In my basic knowledge, the injuries could have happened in a snow collapse and signs of asphyxiation wouldn't be present in an autopsy conducted 3 months later.

Basically, who ever stated that the hey could of lived 10,20 minutes , or 2, to there hours after their physical injuries doesn't take in to account that they may have died instantly ( or with in minutes of a crushing event) .

Unfortunately, the questions asked and answers given don't cite who and where this conversation came from. They don't seem to be in the case files or autopsy..

The autopsy conclusion states,

"Conclusion

On the basis of the examination of the body of Thibeaux-Brignolle, it is my opinion that his death was the result of a closed comminuted pressure fracture in the area of the base and the vault of the cranium with a prolific amount of bleeding under the meninges and brain matter while under low temperature. The above-mentioned extensive comminuted fracture of the base and the vault of the cranium are of in vivo origin and are the result of a great force with the subsequent falling, hurling and concussion of Thibeaux-Brignolle.

The corporal damage of the soft tissue in the area of the head and the ‘bath skin’ of the extremities are the result of post-mortem changes in the body of Thibeaux-Brignolle, which was found submerged in water after some time. The death of Thibeaux-Brignolle was a result of violence."

So , I remain confused what is fact or fiction. I may have missed some things and I'm happy to be guided to the source. .

Right, I see were you're coming from.
My understanding is that the signs of asphyxiation would be detectable in the bodies - even after three months of decomposition.
Personally, I'm trying to piece together a likely explanation to the tragedy and I'm referring to official documents and conclusions to form my theory - the documents on this site, listed as the autopsy reports for each of the hikers - conclude with causes of death as something other than asphyxiation.
I also think that because the bodies were found under several meters of snow - the specialist would be specifically looking for signs of asphyxiation - making it less likely for them to have been overlooked, specially in four bodies.
The theory I'm working on aims to provide a likely timeline and motive for the hikers being at the ravine in the first place - when it comes to explaining their death I opted for the hikers having fallen into the ravine - as it more closely correlates with what was found at their autopsy. Your argument opens up the possibility that perhaps the signs of asphyxiation may not be detectable by the time the bodies were found.
That is a valid point to consider if my aim is to avoid speculation.  As of yet this may alter my conclusions as to HOW they died, but it does not alter the sequence of events I'm suggesting, which is how they got there in the first place

I understand, unfortunately, I do not know if asphyxiation from snow would be detectable after 3 months , in other cases I've read , certain physical components can be found in the lungs, throat and mouth.

Obviously the conclusion about the deaths can only come from what they observe but again the skills and knowledge of 1959 would not be the same as today.

I am following your timeline and modifications with interest. I can't see the group cutting the tent and/or chasing down the slope without taking more equipment though, blankets , coats , axes , ski poles etc.

However, it is interesting as to why those two have the footwear and better clothing. It suggests two proposals, that they were the first down the slope to the woods or perhaps the last , having time to dress slightly better , or a third , that that's just how they were dressed at the time of having to leave the tent.

Please continue