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Expeditions to the Dyatlov Pass / Re: Winter expedition to the Dyatlov Pass 2025

« Last post by Teddy on Today at 07:18:38 AM »

NIGHT AT DYATLOV PASS
A chance to spend the 66th anniversary of the tragedy night February 1-2, 2025, on the spot and in a replica of Dyatlov group tent, and a burning stove similar to the one Dyatlov used. You will trace the route of the fateful trek, visit the landmarks sites, meet Mansi and spend a night in their guest house, experience the mighty Urals in winter and soak in a Russian bathhouse.

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General Discussion / Re: Tent dimensions

« Last post by GlennM on December 11, 2024, 05:01:03 PM »

This interesting train of thought may suppose that there was sufficient reason to break up the hiking party into groups. It suggests that footprints were an insufficient guide back to the tent. It supposes that the duration of the flashlight(s) batteries would be adequate for the task at hand. Further, a flashlight switched on upon the ground could be seen at a distance, obviously at night. It argues that climbing the cedar in icy conditions was worth the risk. To climb the cedar and spot 5he flashlight might mean the actual tent was too far or cloaked in a foggy mist. It raises the question, "what was worth the trek to the woods and back?"  It explains the having of cuts on the tent for viewing the distant woods. Since this was the case, then it must have been too inclement for those within the tent to do their visual search outside and free standing. One would presume these viewing cuts preceeded the slashes to the tent. It makes clear that once the tent was catastrophically ruined by cutting, no mending of the tent would be sufficient to continue to use it. In other words, it was too cold to go out of the tent to look for the two Yuris, but it was acceptable to knife the tent to go find them. So, why did Igor try to get back to the tent?

It seems that in this case, two Yuris leave the tent and retrieve nothing of importance. They start a fire, but abandon it in order to climb a tree instead of following their own tracks back to the tent. The rest of the party shred and depart the tent to go find their friends who are by then dead. The remaining hikers strip the deceased of clothing and try to shelter in a ravine. Three hikers have sufficient reason to regain the tent. All perish.

Surely, everyone was of sound mind, or were they? 

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General Discussion / Re: Temperature and Wind Chill -- No Chance To Survive For An Hour Or Longer

« Last post by Ziljoe on December 11, 2024, 03:40:38 PM »

The bodies of Slobidin, zina, and Igor are consistent with death from hypothermia I believe. A search on the web will show these unusual body positions with other hypothermia victims. Igor's with the boxer position is known. The two Yuri's do look like the were moved but it also borders on paradoxical undressing in my uneducated opinion. We can't tell anything conclusive from the ravine 4 body positions. I don't know the exact medical reasons for the body pose of Igor but it may be the last fight for life  with intention to move , zina and Slobidin suggest burrowing where the hypothermia victims try to tunnel in to the ground. If that helps .

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General Discussion / Re: Hubris and risk taking?

« Last post by Arjan on December 11, 2024, 11:30:14 AM »

A few considerations on hubris and risk taking:

I remember having read that the group - with their clothing - had not been able to trek during daytime with temperatures below minus 16 degrees celsius. This fits my analysis on hypothermia: with temperatures below minus 16 the group had been able during trekking on skis to maintain their core temperature on 37 degrees celsius only during two or three hours: after two or three hours their core temperature had started to drop to mild hypothermia. It had taken a little less than two hours to set their campsite and they had entered the first state of hypothermia.
This analysis shows that the group had to stay well within one or two days from the 'civilised' world; otherwise they had been in severe trouble by a few days temparatures below minus 16 degrees celsius.

Looking at the map of the storage and tent area, the group had not had adequate equipment (every member an ice-axe (piolet) and crampons) for the ascend - 30 percent on average over around 1 kilometer - from the storage to the tent area. This climb had posed a serious risk for a dangerous slide. The group members had not been able to apply a self-arrest when they had started to slide with a heavy rugsack and skis and poles in their hands.

The diaries suggest that Lyudmila had not been top fit and that several male tourists had been moody by nicotine deficiency.

The photos and diaries suggest that there had been problems with planning and group leadership, e.g.
- Who on earth leaves Vishay on 16:00 pm - one hour before sunset!!! - for the track to second settlement over a not fully frozen river?
- How did the group pass Ushma (look at the long lists of Mansi words in three diaries?
- Igor looks worried - and wandering along - on most photos after the group had left Vishay. Zinaida makes a similar observation the diary that is described to her.   

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General Discussion / Re: Temperature and Wind Chill -- No Chance To Survive For An Hour Or Longer

« Last post by Arjan on December 11, 2024, 10:49:59 AM »

As far as I am aware, nobody has presented a timeline of the effect of hypothermia on possible behaviour and capabilities of the group members during their fatal episode of their tour.

According to my analysis, group members who had left the tent around 16:30 pm had been able to:
- maintain their core temperature by hard work (making campfire and den) during two hours when dressed like most group members (except both Yuri's and the severely wounded three/four) had been found
- around 20:00 pm the non-wounded and better clothed had entered the stage of mild hypothermia
- around 22:00 pm the non-wounded and better clothed had entered a state of apathy
- around 23:00 pm the non-wounded and better clothed had entered a state of dull trance
- around 2:00 am the next day, the non-wounded and better clothed had lost consciousness for the last time in their lives.
- around 5:00 pm the next day, the heart of the non-wounded and better clothed had beaten for the last time.

- Around 12:00 pm the next day, rigor mortis had developed in the joints of these non-wounded and better clothed. Remark: Except Zinaida, all group members had been found in an unnatural pose for death by hypothermia. Several group members show clear signs of being moved after the had lost consciousness for the last time by livy spots on the top of their body, or raised limb(s), like Yuri Kri and Igor.
- Around 24:00 pm the next day, the most inner core of their bodies had started to freeze and herewith their posture had been set in ice.

This provisional timeline leaves only room for two possibilities:
1. the group members had been placed in the postures as found by the first search party by outsiders within a very tight time-frame, or
2. Two or three group-members had spent the fatal night for the others in far better conditions as the group members near the cedar/ravine area. As far as I am aware, there had been only one place in the tent/ravine/cedar area that may provide a good place to survive a cold night: this place is the tent that had been found by the first search party standing on one shorter pole as an excellent place for an emergency bivac. In case two or three group members had stayed huddled together in the tent under several blankets, these two/three had had an uncomfortable cold night, but the next morning they had been able to descend to the cedar/ravine to place the other group members in the postures as found by the first search party. In my opinion, Zinaida and Rustem are the candidates for spending this night in the tent and place the other group members in the postures as found by the first search party.

The last option meets the 'least action principle' (Ockham razor) and it fits honourable behaviour that may be expected from students from a University of Technology at that time.
 

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General Discussion / Re: Tent dimensions

« Last post by Arjan on December 11, 2024, 10:36:15 AM »

Personally I take into account that the tent had been fully frozen found by the first search party. This may well have resulted that the opening of the tent had to be defrosted from the ice between both tent canvasses at the opening. It is quite logic that a member of the search party had torn the tent canvas to get a quick access to the inside of the tent.

I remember that one author about this case has stated that the shorter cuts on the eye level had been made to have a view from the inside to the tent to the cedar/ravine area.

If this statement is correct, then there are five details found by the first search party that hint on a communication channel between the tent and the cedar/ravine area:
1. The shorter cuts on the eye level;
2. The flash light on top of the tent for sending morse code to the cedar/ravine area, or intending to indicate the direction to the tent for group members returning from cedar/ravine area;
3. The flash light - switched on - found in the middle between the tent and the cedar/ravine area, intended as beacon halfway for group members returning from cedar/ravine area;
4. Yuri Dor and/or Yuri Kri climbing the cedar to have a direct view from an opening between the branches in the cedar in the direction to the tent area. (The same author had stated this detail)
5. The smoke from campfire near the cedar. Remark: smoke from a campfire can be smelled over a long distance with a tiny wind.   

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General Discussion / Re: Temperature and Wind Chill -- No Chance To Survive For An Hour Or Longer

« Last post by GlennM on December 10, 2024, 07:21:03 AM »

Presenting alternatives is common practice on the forum. The trap is using only the evidence that supports the idea, while ignoring inconvenient truths. Also, we consider degrees of separation. An original diary or original photo is one degree of separation from the truth. An original investigator and their photos are two degrees of separation. Forum contributers relying on these evidences are often 3 degrees of separation from the truth. Pure speculation and conspiracies are four degrees of separation.

We all know that with notebook in hand, Zolo left us nothing. We know that time has changed 1079, the cedar and the ravine.

This is why we create fables and legends. It satisfies a need for closure in the absence of the elusive truth.

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General Discussion / Re: Temperature and Wind Chill -- No Chance To Survive For An Hour Or Longer

« Last post by Ziljoe on December 09, 2024, 08:54:00 AM »

Thanks MDGross. Hope I didn't sound rude ,I wasn't trying to detract from you're thoughts , as I also go through these processes and speculate. It's difficult to get a foot hold In this mystery.

There is discussion on some forum that they , the hikers , perhaps moved the location of there first attempt to pitch the tent from the last photo to where the tent was found. I can't remember the details or argument but perhaps they dug a trench further up the slope but it was unsuitable and relocated further down the slope?.

My problems with any staging or movement of the bodies is that it's over complicated, if it was staged . It would be easier to make a single track of foot prints going up and down the slope , this would stop any worry about what would be found when search parties arrive , the equipment would need to be moved to the tent scene on the slope from the forest. Yet we have a line of foot prints abreast and the footprints diverge at some point down the slope into a 2 or 3 people leaving the 7 or 6 into some sort of separation.

I don't think it takes an hour down the slope, again I forget the exact time but I'm sure it was found to be about 20 minutes , socks are known to be ok for walking , depending on the exact snow conditions. It wouldn't be great but if they were out of any wind and managed to huddle together, then survival for a few hours , or longer , is possible.

It's those raised foot prints that suggest it was milder and any staging to make it look like it was the hikers footprints would or could show it was staged , ultimately, there is only a 10 day window to stage the scene before potential searchers arrive. If the scene is too fresh then that would mess things up .

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General Discussion / Re: Temperature and Wind Chill -- No Chance To Survive For An Hour Or Longer

« Last post by MDGross on December 09, 2024, 06:33:22 AM »

Points well taken Ziljoe.  I'm trying to present some alternatives to what is taken for granted most of the time. For example, there's the photo that shows the hikers digging a trench on the slope of 1079. But perhaps they changed their minds and decided to return to the forest. How can we be sure one way or the other?

I'm not a big supporter of staging, but if it did happen, then the stagers would have known that the hikers' bodies were barefooted or in stockings only. So afterwards the stagers could have walked a few hundred feet from the tent (which they've moved to the mountain slope) in bare feet or in stockings.

This is pure speculation, of course. But, it's just taken for granted that the hikers walked almost an hour to the forest then spent one or more hours building a fire, digging a snow den or attempting to walk up the slope. The hikers were brave, in great shape and acclimated to the cold, but in such brutal and unforgiving weather, I do not believe they could stay alive for hours.

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General Discussion / Re: New variant of my book (Force majeure on Dyatlov pass)

« Last post by Axelrod on December 08, 2024, 12:21:44 PM »

English and Russan variants were updated (extended) today.
Variant with 19 blocks (with 32 pahes) in each book is changed to variant of 20 blocks in each book.
So,  610 (Summer) -> 640 pages (AUtumn) with 640 pages + 2 covers.

Variant of 600 days (Januaty 9, 2023, - August 30, 2024) - end of summer...
was substututed by Variant of 700 days  (Monday, January 9, 20234, - Sunday, Decemver 8, 2024)

These files and links has been changed.
Another languages will be updated later.