Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => Yeti / Snowman => Topic started by: Star man on July 07, 2019, 11:46:40 PM

Title: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 07, 2019, 11:46:40 PM
The Yeti theory is definitely one that is controversial.  There are many skeptics out there (including myself) but there are also many people who are convinced that they are real.

It is true that there is currently no objective scientific evidence to support their existence.  But it is also common for well established scientific beliefs to be proven wrong also.  In the study and exploration of the solar system almost every heavenly body has revealed surprises that were unexpected or difficult to explain.  Sometimes it is those who are prepared to challenge common understanding that push the frontier of science and knowledge forward.

I want to use this topic to explore the yeti theory in an objective way.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on July 08, 2019, 08:10:06 AM
If we take objective view, my problem with yeti theory is that it requires a proof of its existence, let alone presence at the specific place and time, which multiplies the denominator of probability by a large margin and pushes it far from any 'realistic' theory.

To put it bluntly, compared do military or murder theory, there is one more level of proof needed. I don't need to prove the existence of Soviet soldiers or people with violent intent when we discuss the latter. Their presence remains to be proved or dismissed though.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 08, 2019, 03:44:33 PM
We can explore the YETI THEORY. It may take time though. We dont have much to go on regarding the Dyatlov Incident. We could use Incidents from the past to compare Events. Stories of strange creatures and legends and reports of witnesses sightings etc.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 08, 2019, 10:53:54 PM
If we take objective view, my problem with yeti theory is that it requires a proof of its existence, let alone presence at the specific place and time, which multiplies the denominator of probability by a large margin and pushes it far from any 'realistic' theory.

To put it bluntly, compared do military or murder theory, there is one more level of proof needed. I don't need to prove the existence of Soviet soldiers or people with violent intent when we discuss the latter. Their presence remains to be proved or dismissed though.

Hi Gypsy,

I understand the problem that you outline.  But the denominator might not be significantly greater than the other theories when comparing the motives.  Yes the military and or the potential for murderes "definitely exist".  But thie pass is an extremely remote area, and the weather was really bad.  Apart from the signs of the Mansi and a hunter the group did not see any other people on their trek, even in good weather and daylight.  What is the probability that the military or murderes new where they were AND that the probability that they would take the opportunity to attack them at night in severe weather?  Also, what is the probability that said killers would allow the group to wander off down the slope, (some with shoes and relatively warm clothing)?  What is the probability that the killers would allow some of the group to take knives and matches and flashlights with them?  What would the motive be for such an attack?

On the other hand how would a Yeti know they were there - smell, noise.
What would a Yeti be doing there - it's natural habitat
Why would a Yeti attack them - curiosity and territorial protection.
If they did cut their way through the side of the tent why would they do this to evade humans?  It would be pointless.

The group left the camp site in a hurry - Rustem left before he finished putting his boots on.
There appears to have been a significant and immediate threat to life that night.  Something scary enough to force them all away from their life boat the tent.

Yes - all of the above is subject to question too.  I am simply suggesting that the probabilities might not  be as far away as expected.

Regards

Star man



Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 08, 2019, 10:55:44 PM
We can explore the YETI THEORY. It may take time though. We dont have much to go on regarding the Dyatlov Incident. We could use Incidents from the past to compare Events. Stories of strange creatures and legends and reports of witnesses sightings etc.

Hi Srarpuk,

Past eye witness accounts and stories would be useful.  Do you know of any?  Of course it will take time thrash this one out.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 08, 2019, 11:43:37 PM
It might be worth trying to put some context into this thread.

Scientific discovery can be a slow and sometimes embarrassing process. Especially for the scientific community who have their reputation to keep.

It was difficult for them to accept that the world wasn’t flat after all.  Maps had to be re-drawn and trade routes thought through again because our shipping was no longer going to fall off the edge.

Oh and by the way the earth isn’t the centre of the universe.  That was a bit embarrassing - sorry Galileo.

Wow women can actually learn to read.  That was a bit of a revelation for some.

Say what - you can actually travel faster than 30 mph without suffocating?  Thanks for that one Stevenson.

Oh pants - you can’t actually turn base metals into gold.  I’ll have to buy a lottery ticket now.

Ah - the universe is actually bigger than we thought and it is still getting bigger.  Thanks Edwin.  What would we have done without you.  I don’t need my cosmological constant after all - or do I?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 09, 2019, 04:47:13 AM
Hi.  Just a bit more context

There are now many examples of animals that were previously thought to be myth, legend or extinct that we have recently been discovered to be still around.

The Megamouth Shark thought to be extinct for millions of years turned up in 1976.  Only 100 have ever been seen since.

The Coelacanth thought to be extinct since the Cretaceous found alive in 1938.

What about the ancient mariners tales of giant sea serpents and squid.  Utter nonsense - at least until the 1860s when an actual specimen was found and it became a part of main stream science.

Also several tribes of human have been discovered during the 20th century some living a Stone Age existence. Tribes that have had no contact with modern civilisation for thousands of years.

What about Big Foot or Yetis - utter garbage right?  To think that a potentially very intelligent humanoid creature could evade the true awesomeness of mankinds powers of discovery.

Regards

Star man



Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 09, 2019, 04:00:59 PM
Possible Clues:

The Evening Otorten - satirical pamphlet with each entry humorously relaying real events of the trip.  So what about the Science entry and the "snow man"?  Did one of the group see something and relay this to the group only to be ridiculed and later prompt the entry in the pamphlet?  Why say anything about a snow man in the pamphlet?  The pamphlets certainly doesn't say anything about military personnel or KGB or any other humans.

Why camp where they did in an exposed place in potentially bad weather conditions away from the planned route?  Did they think it would give them a better vantage point to observe anything approaching the tent? 

Why did Semyon have his camera around his neck - had he seen something that he wanted to photograph?  Did he fear for his life and thought that taking a photo of his killer would at least inform the world about what had happened.  Did he have a piece of paper in hand when he was found and if so what was he trying to write?

What could scare 9 fit tourists so much that they would cut their way out of a tent and leave it's safety for sub zero temperatures without adequate clothing and shoes?  Cutting your way out of a tent is unlikely to be a realistic means of escape from humans.  It is more likely to be the panicked actions of people who are terrified of something in or at the entrance to the tent.

How do two of the tourists receive similar flail chest injuries on the same night?  While another receives a significant head injury?



Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 09, 2019, 11:44:22 PM
If there was a Yeti, why would it approach the group?  Probably just curiosity.  Maybe they were in its territory.

Of the many reported sightings of such creatures very few describe any sort of aggressive behaviour.  In most cases it would appear that both the creature and the human are taken by surprise with said creature making a swift and controlled retreat.  Other types of encounter describe the creature as curious- following the people but keeping their distance.  As if they are keeping a watchful eye on them to ensure they don’t present a threat to others in the creatures family.

Most description of aggression is in the form of growls and thrown objects such as stones and logs.  The creatures keeping a cautious distance.

So at the tent it is possible that the creature simply wanted them out of its territory in case they were a threat .

This is a simple motive is it not?

Regards

Star man


Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 10, 2019, 08:46:18 AM
Why did the group leave the tent?  Given the remote location, the time of day and the poor weather conditions it is extremely unlikely that there were any other people there.  If there was a rocket or some other military threat from the air then it left no obvious trace on the tent and if it left no obvious trace on the tent then it could not have been significant enough to cause them harm - unless a large amount of gas was involved that later blew away.  And is it realistic to think that one moment they bahaved completely irrationally and then completely rationally again in their attempt to survive?

Is it more likely that on the slope that night there was a very real and significant threat?  A threat that was relatively quite at home in that environment?  A threat that scared them so much that they left their only safe refuge with insufficient clothing and footwear knowing that their chances of survival were slim.  Why cut the tent if it is your life boat?  Surely you would only do this out of shear panic, where your flight or flight response over ruled your logical thinking.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 11, 2019, 04:03:00 PM
Was looking at the photographs of the raised foot prints closely today and noticed something odd near the set of prints highlighted in green and numbered as 4.  I'm not going to say what it is though.  If anyone else sees something odd let me know.  Might be nothing, or something.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: NkZ on July 12, 2019, 10:27:10 AM
Régular and curved sweeping marks in the snow, like a zen garden? Or an erasement....
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 12, 2019, 10:59:05 AM
Régular and curved sweeping marks in the snow, like a zen garden? Or an erasement....

Yeah, there is definitely regularity there.  Even symmetry.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: NkZ on July 12, 2019, 11:46:03 AM
Someone with a metal detector «  combing » along the traces?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 12, 2019, 12:43:57 PM
Below is a witness statement from slobtsov.  I find it interesting for several reasons:

He says we followed these prints from the tent in the direction of the spreading cedar.  Does that mean that the tourists could see the cedar on the landscape in the distance or is this just a coincidence?

If they could see it how? Wasn't it suppose to be night and bad weather?

If they decided to head for the cedar does that mean they were able to make their own decisions on where they went and what action they took.  In other words they were making their own decisions rather being frogged marched down the slope?

Why head for cedar?  What advantage did they see in this action if any?

Regards

Star man

Slobtsov

”There were footprints of bare feet, but in socks. Some were from valenki, and occasionally we could make out the tread of a ski boot. All of these prints were raised higher than the actual wind-scoured surface of the slope. We followed these prints from the tent in the direction of a spreading cedar, which was clearly prominent on the hill. First we lost, and then we found, the tracks again. They appeared again in the birch-tree undergrowth, and then they went down along the ravine which led to the Lozva River.”

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: NkZ on July 12, 2019, 01:54:07 PM
but... dear Star Man, are looking at the same picture?
i was considering the ripples on this one, that somehow look on second thought like damage on a film...
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-011.jpg
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 12, 2019, 04:09:37 PM
but... dear Star Man, are looking at the same picture?
i was considering the ripples on this one, that somehow look on second thought like damage on a film...
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-011.jpg

Ah right.  I was looking at this one.  Centre right and down a little.

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-015.jpg

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 14, 2019, 03:53:06 PM
Let's talk a little bit about the more significant injuries.

Lyuda, Semyon and Thibo.

I have done a fair bit of research into the flail chest injuries and from my investigation I have concluded that both Lyuda and Semyon's flail chests appear to have been caused by a single very large impact - applying a force in the region of 2.5 tonnes.  This is far beyond any force that a human being can deliver in a single impact.  A fall could explain such an injury -say from about 4 to 5 metres onto a flatish surface.  A vehicle impact could also explain it - but I doubt very much there were any vehicles there.  Thibo's head injury could also be explained by a fall, and hitting his head on a rock.  Problem solved right?  -  not quite.  In a previous theory I wrote on " Low yield nuke" I speculated that the injuries were caused by the three falling from the cedar, after suffering from hypoxia.  This was one way of explaining how they didn't sustain any coincident injuries to limbs.

In most fall injuries of a conscious person a large proportion of them also result in broken ankles and wrists, due to the conscious person attempting to break their fall.  But here we have three significant injuries occurring without any similar injuries to limbs?  Why?  If they all fell and they were conscious when it happened then at least one of them should have sustained a significant injury to arms or ankle.  It's also interesting that two of them sustain very similar rib injuries, each of which require a very similar amount of force.  Kind of like the source of of both injuries was the same.  Could it have been a shock waves from an explosion?  If this was the case why no shrapnel wounds and no shrapnel also?  No scorch marks or burns on the clothing?  Also a shock wave capable of causing those injuries would throw the person a fair distance resulting in additional significant secondary injuries.  But there aren't any.

So what is the likihood of three of the Rav 4 falling on the same night and receiving significant and similar injuries?  The case files suggest there were 8 or 9 sets of tracks leading away from the tent down the slope in the same direction?  But only three of the tourists have significant head and chest Injuries, and it just so happens that those three were all found in the same group in the ravine. 

The chest injuries could also have been caused by a large crushing force applied like a bear hug, or from being physically picked up and thrown.  It would take something very powerful to do this.  Something much more powerful than any human.  Thibo's head injury could also have been cause the same way, or possibly from a thrown rock.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 14, 2019, 03:59:03 PM
pasted-image.jpg

Not sure if this image post worked.  Anyway was lookingnatnthis image and noticed some regualr symmetrical discolouration of the snow/ice.  Have a look at the original to see if you can see it also.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 14, 2019, 04:00:18 PM
Ah it didn't work. -  no matter

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 15, 2019, 04:06:18 AM
Building on the investigation into the injuries. Another possible explanation for the broken ribs and head injuries is that they could have been caused by a large bolder being lifted and dropped onto them. This would result in similar injuries.  The size of the bolder required to cause such injuries I have estimated to be between 150kg to 300kg depending on the height it is dropped from 1 to 2 metres.  This could potentially have been the murder weapon.  If this was used and the bodies were not subsequently moved then such a weapon could still be there today. An examination of the damaged ribs might reveal further information on what caused the breaks.

Another question is could a normal human lift such a bolder?  Or possibly two people working together?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 15, 2019, 06:17:26 AM
Just some further thoughts on the above.  The bodies look like they have been moved.  Probably by Kolevatov.  If this is the case then it is unlikely that they would have been moved very far.  So if a bolder was used then it might not be in the immediate vicinity of where the bodies were found.  But it would probably be relatively near by.  Given the lack of tissue damage it is likely to have been a reasonabley smooth bolder.  It would also be likely that there are signs that the bolder had been moved and dropped- scratches, chunks missing etc.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 15, 2019, 01:34:37 PM
It might be worth trying to put some context into this thread.

Scientific discovery can be a slow and sometimes embarrassing process. Especially for the scientific community who have their reputation to keep.

It was difficult for them to accept that the world wasn’t flat after all.  Maps had to be re-drawn and trade routes thought through again because our shipping was no longer going to fall off the edge.

Oh and by the way the earth isn’t the centre of the universe.  That was a bit embarrassing - sorry Galileo.

Wow women can actually learn to read.  That was a bit of a revelation for some.

Say what - you can actually travel faster than 30 mph without suffocating?  Thanks for that one Stevenson.

Oh pants - you can’t actually turn base metals into gold.  I’ll have to buy a lottery ticket now.

Ah - the universe is actually bigger than we thought and it is still getting bigger.  Thanks Edwin.  What would we have done without you.  I don’t need my cosmological constant after all - or do I?

Regards

Star man

And lets not forget a biggy from Albert, nothing travels faster than the speed of light. Well actually something does.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 15, 2019, 01:49:28 PM
We can explore the YETI THEORY. It may take time though. We dont have much to go on regarding the Dyatlov Incident. We could use Incidents from the past to compare Events. Stories of strange creatures and legends and reports of witnesses sightings etc.

Hi Srarpuk,

Past eye witness accounts and stories would be useful.  Do you know of any?  Of course it will take time thrash this one out.

Regards

Star man

Well I have read many books and articles over the years and with the Internet getting better all the time more information is coming to light. I think a good idea would be to look at SIMILARITIES, obviously its unlikely we will come across an exact event. So similar instances where there have been reports of such creatures and any injuries to animals including Humans. Also any reports of UFO's in the vicinity of such sightings or events. Now I know about a famous story from ALASKA from the 1930's mostly, and here is an interesting link to get that particular ball rolling. https://www.alaskamagazine.com/articles/somethings-afoot-in-port-chatham-century-old-rumors-persist-of-a-terror-in-the-mountains/
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 15, 2019, 03:24:10 PM
We can explore the YETI THEORY. It may take time though. We dont have much to go on regarding the Dyatlov Incident. We could use Incidents from the past to compare Events. Stories of strange creatures and legends and reports of witnesses sightings etc.

Hi Srarpuk,

Past eye witness accounts and stories would be useful.  Do you know of any?  Of course it will take time thrash this one out.

Regards

Star man

Well I have read many books and articles over the years and with the Internet getting better all the time more information is coming to light. I think a good idea would be to look at SIMILARITIES, obviously its unlikely we will come across an exact event. So similar instances where there have been reports of such creatures and any injuries to animals including Humans. Also any reports of UFO's in the vicinity of such sightings or events. Now I know about a famous story from ALASKA from the 1930's mostly, and here is an interesting link to get that particular ball rolling. https://www.alaskamagazine.com/articles/somethings-afoot-in-port-chatham-century-old-rumors-persist-of-a-terror-in-the-mountains/

It is an interesting story.  So many disappearances and eye witness sightings.  I have read stories where the creature is very cautious, keeping its distance from humans.  And other stories where the creatures gain confidence slowly approaching and becoming progressively more aggressive.  Kind of like testing the water to understand if the humans are a threat. 

It's interesting that there are so many stories from a varied array of people and yet no evidence.   Have you seen the you tube video about Dr Mathew Johnsons encounter at the Oregon caves?  It's in two parts.  Whether he saw a big foot or now he certainly believes that he saw one.  Worth a watch.  He suffers post traumatic stress from his experience and re-lives the fear each time he tells the tale.  Difficult to fake those emotions.

Wrt to the Dyatlov case I am looking for objective evidence or at least clues as to where to look.  Could there still be evidence today?

Given modern forensic science I think the bodies of Lyuda, Semyon and Thibo may hold significant clues to what happened.  Could do with some "cold case" investigators on the DPI.  The bones could reveal a lot of information:

Were the injuries caused by:

A fall (possible)

Applied slow pressure and crushing (unlikely) given the double fracture lines but not impossible

An impact from a melee attack ( again unlikely even from a yeti). I think even an 8 to 10 foot hominid would struggle to generate 2.5 tonnes of force from a hand

A large round smoothish 150 to 300 kg bolder dropped from about 1 to 2 metres - actually this one may be credible for the legendary Yeti.  Probably even 2 humans.  I'm not sure how much discussion there has been on heavy bolders falling onto them?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 16, 2019, 02:35:20 PM


It is an interesting story.  So many disappearances and eye witness sightings.  I have read stories where the creature is very cautious, keeping its distance from humans.  And other stories where the creatures gain confidence slowly approaching and becoming progressively more aggressive.  Kind of like testing the water to understand if the humans are a threat. 

It's interesting that there are so many stories from a varied array of people and yet no evidence.   Have you seen the you tube video about Dr Mathew Johnsons encounter at the Oregon caves?  It's in two parts.  Whether he saw a big foot or now he certainly believes that he saw one.  Worth a watch.  He suffers post traumatic stress from his experience and re-lives the fear each time he tells the tale.  Difficult to fake those emotions.

Wrt to the Dyatlov case I am looking for objective evidence or at least clues as to where to look.  Could there still be evidence today?

Given modern forensic science I think the bodies of Lyuda, Semyon and Thibo may hold significant clues to what happened.  Could do with some "cold case" investigators on the DPI.  The bones could reveal a lot of information:

Were the injuries caused by:

A fall (possible)

Applied slow pressure and crushing (unlikely) given the double fracture lines but not impossible

An impact from a melee attack ( again unlikely even from a yeti). I think even an 8 to 10 foot hominid would struggle to generate 2.5 tonnes of force from a hand

A large round smoothish 150 to 300 kg bolder dropped from about 1 to 2 metres - actually this one may be credible for the legendary Yeti.  Probably even 2 humans.  I'm not sure how much discussion there has been on heavy bolders falling onto them?

Regards

Star man
[/quote]

Well so many things are coming to light since the fall of the The Soviet Union and also the beginning of The World Wide Web. I havnt seen that You Tube story that you mention but I have seen many many articles in the last few years that point to something unusual going on and has been going on for a very long time. Strange Creatures and UFO's and other unusual activity. Now an interesting one this, EVIDENCE. Evidence can take many forms. An eye witness account of something can be called EVIDENCE. How many Crimes have been solved with just an EYE WITNESS. Something to think about. Regarding those Dyatlov Bodies you mention, the AUTOPSY REPORTS did not seem very thorough to Me  !  ?  Like some things were omitted ! ? Not very detailed Autopsy Reports considering the IMPORTANCE of this EVENT.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 16, 2019, 03:30:40 PM


It is an interesting story.  So many disappearances and eye witness sightings.  I have read stories where the creature is very cautious, keeping its distance from humans.  And other stories where the creatures gain confidence slowly approaching and becoming progressively more aggressive.  Kind of like testing the water to understand if the humans are a threat. 

It's interesting that there are so many stories from a varied array of people and yet no evidence.   Have you seen the you tube video about Dr Mathew Johnsons encounter at the Oregon caves?  It's in two parts.  Whether he saw a big foot or now he certainly believes that he saw one.  Worth a watch.  He suffers post traumatic stress from his experience and re-lives the fear each time he tells the tale.  Difficult to fake those emotions.

Wrt to the Dyatlov case I am looking for objective evidence or at least clues as to where to look.  Could there still be evidence today?

Given modern forensic science I think the bodies of Lyuda, Semyon and Thibo may hold significant clues to what happened.  Could do with some "cold case" investigators on the DPI.  The bones could reveal a lot of information:

Were the injuries caused by:

A fall (possible)

Applied slow pressure and crushing (unlikely) given the double fracture lines but not impossible

An impact from a melee attack ( again unlikely even from a yeti). I think even an 8 to 10 foot hominid would struggle to generate 2.5 tonnes of force from a hand

A large round smoothish 150 to 300 kg bolder dropped from about 1 to 2 metres - actually this one may be credible for the legendary Yeti.  Probably even 2 humans.  I'm not sure how much discussion there has been on heavy bolders falling onto them?

Regards

Star man

Well so many things are coming to light since the fall of the The Soviet Union and also the beginning of The World Wide Web. I havnt seen that You Tube story that you mention but I have seen many many articles in the last few years that point to something unusual going on and has been going on for a very long time. Strange Creatures and UFO's and other unusual activity. Now an interesting one this, EVIDENCE. Evidence can take many forms. An eye witness account of something can be called EVIDENCE. How many Crimes have been solved with just an EYE WITNESS. Something to think about. Regarding those Dyatlov Bodies you mention, the AUTOPSY REPORTS did not seem very thorough to Me  !  ?  Like some things were omitted ! ? Not very detailed Autopsy Reports considering the IMPORTANCE of this EVENT.
[/quote]

The autopsy reports don't seem to dig deep enough.  It's almost as if they had already decided what had happened to them before they started.

Looking for evidence is interesting.  There are key facts, but multiple possibilities that could fit those facts making it difficult to solve.  Also, space and time.  There is no time stamp on the events so apart from one or two sequences it's difficult to know exactly what happened and when.  Do they all leave the tent together or in groups?  Who went where and with who.  It's complicated.

One aspect I have been thinking about is evidence of "haste", and the placing this into context for the Yeti theory:

Did they leave the tent in haste?  Semyon and Thibo were dressed with shoes on.  They were probably on duty that night.  If there wasmsomethingnoutside the tent then these two would have most likely been the first to hear it or become aware of it.  What would they do?  Grab a flashlight and go outside carefully checking to look for wild animals?  If they saw a Yeti what would they do?  Make a lot of noise I imagine using some colourful language.  Maybe they would run, the flight response triggered.  The commotion would certainly wake those in the tent if they were sleeping.  The people in the tent are less well dressed.  Rustem attempts to put his boots on but escapes the tent before he can grab his second boot.  They make their way down the slope.  Could they run given that they have no shoes, the slope is steep and slippery, it's dark and the snow is fairly deep?  Probably difficult to run.  This doesn't mean that they don't hurry as fast they can?

On the slope they drop the flashlight.  If it was important enough to take why wasn't it important enough to pick up?  Haste? Panic?

At the cedar is there evidence of haste.  The clothes removed from the two Yuris for instance.  Cut from their bodies, socks scattered around the camp fire, clothes left between the ravine and the cedar.  If they were in a hurry why?  Gloves in pockets, unused socks, coats not fully buttoned up.  I'd the cold was a threat, then maybe it wasn't the only threat?  Maybe there was something else just as dangerous as the cold?

Is there any other indication of haste?

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 17, 2019, 08:51:55 AM
Some more thoughts on Thibo’s head Injuries.

The large rain drop shaped skull crush injury is accompanied by the longer fracture around to the front of the skull.  Given that a typical head weighs about 5 to 6 kg, it would probably take a significant fall to cause that level of damage.  Probably a fall greater than that which could be credible on the pass.  Looking at the injury more closely it appears as if whatever caused the rain drop shaped crush also continued to apply continued force to right side of the skull initiating and propagating the long fracture.  Is such an injury more consistent with a large heavy rock being dropped on his head thus allowing the continued application of force to the head between the rock and the ground?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 19, 2019, 05:48:56 AM


Looking for evidence is interesting.  There are key facts, but multiple possibilities that could fit those facts making it difficult to solve.  Also, space and time.  There is no time stamp on the events so apart from one or two sequences it's difficult to know exactly what happened and when.  Do they all leave the tent together or in groups?  Who went where and with who.  It's complicated.

One aspect I have been thinking about is evidence of "haste", and the placing this into context for the Yeti theory:

Did they leave the tent in haste?    I'd the cold was a threat, then maybe it wasn't the only threat?  Maybe there was something else just as dangerous as the cold?

Is there any other indication of haste?

Regards

Star man
[/quote]

The Evidence problem is a very difficult one. May be one day more Evidence will come to light. As for Evidence of HASTE, well it looks like they left the Tent in a fair hurry, because of the indications re clothing and all the stuff they left behind in the Tent. Well I suppose in those weather conditions if you leave a Tent you are exposing yourself to a greater danger. We dont know the EXACT weather conditions when they left the Tent. By all accounts the weather can change dramatically in those regions in a very short time.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 19, 2019, 05:53:48 AM
Some more thoughts on Thibo’s head Injuries.

The large rain drop shaped skull crush injury is accompanied by the longer fracture around to the front of the skull.  Given that a typical head weighs about 5 to 6 kg, it would probably take a significant fall to cause that level of damage.  Probably a fall greater than that which could be credible on the pass.  Looking at the injury more closely it appears as if whatever caused the rain drop shaped crush also continued to apply continued force to right side of the skull initiating and propagating the long fracture.  Is such an injury more consistent with a large heavy rock being dropped on his head thus allowing the continued application of force to the head between the rock and the ground?

Regards

Star man

I think some of the injuries could easily have been caused by a BEAR. But Iam not saying that a BEAR caused those injuries. Also on the subject of strange creatures like the alleged YETI, then I would have thought such a creature could also have caused those injuries. And again Iam not saying that a YETI caused those injuries.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 19, 2019, 08:35:58 AM


Looking for evidence is interesting.  There are key facts, but multiple possibilities that could fit those facts making it difficult to solve.  Also, space and time.  There is no time stamp on the events so apart from one or two sequences it's difficult to know exactly what happened and when.  Do they all leave the tent together or in groups?  Who went where and with who.  It's complicated.

One aspect I have been thinking about is evidence of "haste", and the placing this into context for the Yeti theory:

Did they leave the tent in haste?    I'd the cold was a threat, then maybe it wasn't the only threat?  Maybe there was something else just as dangerous as the cold?

Is there any other indication of haste?

Regards

Star man

The Evidence problem is a very difficult one. May be one day more Evidence will come to light. As for Evidence of HASTE, well it looks like they left the Tent in a fair hurry, because of the indications re clothing and all the stuff they left behind in the Tent. Well I suppose in those weather conditions if you leave a Tent you are exposing yourself to a greater danger. We dont know the EXACT weather conditions when they left the Tent. By all accounts the weather can change dramatically in those regions in a very short time.
[/quote]

True but could do with evidence that they left in haste .  The clothes is a good indicator but it doesn’t rule out that they could have been forced to leave without clothes?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 19, 2019, 08:42:57 AM
Some more thoughts on Thibo’s head Injuries.

The large rain drop shaped skull crush injury is accompanied by the longer fracture around to the front of the skull.  Given that a typical head weighs about 5 to 6 kg, it would probably take a significant fall to cause that level of damage.  Probably a fall greater than that which could be credible on the pass.  Looking at the injury more closely it appears as if whatever caused the rain drop shaped crush also continued to apply continued force to right side of the skull initiating and propagating the long fracture.  Is such an injury more consistent with a large heavy rock being dropped on his head thus allowing the continued application of force to the head between the rock and the ground?

Regards

Star man

I think some of the injuries could easily have been caused by a BEAR. But Iam not saying that a BEAR caused those injuries. Also on the subject of strange creatures like the alleged YETI, then I would have thought such a creature could also have caused those injuries. And again Iam not saying that a YETI caused those injuries.

Agree that we should not assume that the alleged Yeti was involved.  This needs to be an objective analysis of the theory allowing the suspension of disbelief. 

I am just looking for better evidence either for or against.

I may suggest controversial claims for the sake of the argument though.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 19, 2019, 09:04:02 AM
Ok this is just an observation and it is definitely a little controversial.

First I want you to think about holding a football in your hands with one hand either side. Now imagine yourself trying to squeeze the football as hard as you can.  You could actually try it but be careful not to do yourself an injury.  Which part of your hands do you use to ensure you can apply the most pressure?

Now look at the shape of that part of your hand.  Are you looking at the ball of your thumb? Now look at the shape of the crush injury on Thibeaux-Brignolle’s skull.

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.

Of course there could be other things that could cause a skull fracture shape like that which I am investigating.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 19, 2019, 04:23:30 PM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on July 20, 2019, 01:57:55 AM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

Pressure of 450kg sounds like a lot, but the test was performed with almost no acceleration which requires much more force compared to a direct impact with blunt object. The other thing ist the area of impact (smaller area of impact is more likely to cause the fracture). It is possible to inflict such injury with human powers as it happened before in combat sports or even football.

Chelsea goalkeeper sustained a similar fracture some years ago by being hit by the knee or shinguard of the opposition player.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2300976/Champions-League-final-Graphic-MRI-scans-of-Petr-Cechs-head-injury-published.html
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 20, 2019, 05:04:52 PM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

Pressure of 450kg sounds like a lot, but the test was performed with almost no acceleration which requires much more force compared to a direct impact with blunt object. The other thing ist the area of impact (smaller area of impact is more likely to cause the fracture). It is possible to inflict such injury with human powers as it happened before in combat sports or even football.

Chelsea goalkeeper sustained a similar fracture some years ago by being hit by the knee or shinguard of the opposition player.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2300976/Champions-League-final-Graphic-MRI-scans-of-Petr-Cechs-head-injury-published.html

The 450kg would be the static force yes.  I would say there will be some variability - possibly +/- 100kg,.  Will vary from person to person.  Also dynamic loads/forces such as being hit with a blunt object or blunt weapon, or falling and hitting head against something hard would not require something with a mass of 450 kg.  I am looking into some Of these possibilities.

Yes it probably is possible for a human to inflict this kind of injury.  Some of the worlds strongest men could probably do it by crushing the skill with their bare hands even.  But applying dynamic loads would be easier.

When I have some more data I'll post it.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 21, 2019, 11:46:45 PM
Some further thoughts on Thibo’s head injury:

The shape of the injury is quite clear with a distinct rounded perimeter. Slightly elliptical in shape.  If the depression of the injury ranges from 1cm to 3cm then it would mean that the radius of curvature at the point where the injury occurred would be between 6cm and 13cm.  So what could have credibly caused the injury:

1. A fall onto a Rock - Yes
2. Hit with a rock - yes
3. Rock dropped onto head - yes
4. Hit with blunt object - yes
5. Hit with rounded weapon - yes
6. Skull crushed between hands - only by something immensely strong.

Unfortunately there is nothing that can be completely ruled out just looking at the head injury alone.

If you consider the comments from the autopsy the lack of soft tissue damage is interesting. This combined with the lack of injuries to hands, wrists might lower the possibility of a fall.  But Thibo had 2 thick hats on.  Another key point is that Thibo, Lyuda and Semyon all had serious injuries which would significantly increase the likelihood of a violent attack,

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 22, 2019, 04:17:01 AM
Have made a minor amendment to the above post. I had written the diameter rather than the radius. Now corrected.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 22, 2019, 04:48:17 AM
Thibo’s head injury taken in isolation doesn’t reveal anything astonishing.  However when considered holistically with the rav 4.  There are some interesting observations:

1. At least one of the rav four had a knife. This was used to remove clothing from their dead friends at the cedar.

2. The autopsy reports mentions nothing about rope marks on their ankles and wrists, indicating that they were not tied up or restrained.

3. Three of the group had significant injuries.  Any one of which could be explained by a significant fall.  But all three together and with no damage to wrists or ankles is very unlikely (unless they were all unconscious) which is even more unlikely.  This would point to an act of violence by someone or something.

4.  Although Thibo’s head injury could have been caused by another person using a blunt instrument, Semyon and Lyuda’s injuries would have taken a force beyond that which any human could muster.  I think is safe to exclude explosions too as there would be cuts from small pieces of debris and possibly scorch marks. There is no evidence of any explosion.

5. If they were not constrained and had a knife why would their attackers use primitive methods of attack?  The rav four were not stabbed, shot. Or cut by any blade.

It would seem to me that if they were attacked, then whatever/whoever attacked them was also the same thing that drove them from the tent.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 22, 2019, 04:55:31 AM
Lets have another quick look at the cedar.  The two Yuris climbed the tree. Given the injuries to the hands and bruises and abrasions to their bodies and the fact that skin was found on the bark of the tree, does that sound like they were climbing to look for fire wood? Or to make a lookout? Or to find safety?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on July 22, 2019, 06:12:16 AM
No idea....   The skin may have been deposited on the way down leaving any number of reasons to have gone up.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 22, 2019, 09:11:29 AM
No idea....   The skin may have been deposited on the way down leaving any number of reasons to have gone up.

True. It’s a good point.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on July 22, 2019, 11:46:38 AM
In my opinion, they may have simply needed dry firewood.  In these conditions, everything on the ground is water-logged and subsequently frozen.  It makes more sense to collect dry dead branches still attached to a tree.   After you have a good bed of hot coals, it's possible to thaw and dry wood from the ground, but they didn't get that far.  No, they HAD to have dry wood still attached to a tree to have any chance of getting a fire going.

This is like camping 101. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 22, 2019, 02:59:03 PM


Looking for evidence is interesting.  There are key facts, but multiple possibilities that could fit those facts making it difficult to solve.  Also, space and time.  There is no time stamp on the events so apart from one or two sequences it's difficult to know exactly what happened and when.  Do they all leave the tent together or in groups?  Who went where and with who.  It's complicated.

One aspect I have been thinking about is evidence of "haste", and the placing this into context for the Yeti theory:

Did they leave the tent in haste?    I'd the cold was a threat, then maybe it wasn't the only threat?  Maybe there was something else just as dangerous as the cold?

Is there any other indication of haste?

Regards

Star man

The Evidence problem is a very difficult one. May be one day more Evidence will come to light. As for Evidence of HASTE, well it looks like they left the Tent in a fair hurry, because of the indications re clothing and all the stuff they left behind in the Tent. Well I suppose in those weather conditions if you leave a Tent you are exposing yourself to a greater danger. We dont know the EXACT weather conditions when they left the Tent. By all accounts the weather can change dramatically in those regions in a very short time.

True but could do with evidence that they left in haste .  The clothes is a good indicator but it doesn’t rule out that they could have been forced to leave without clothes?

Regards

Star man
[/quote]

Well HASTE means leaving in a hurry, getting a move on as opposed to going slowly.  We dont know why they left in a hurry. They could have been forced or they could have been scared. In that respect we have no evidence.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 22, 2019, 03:10:23 PM
Some more thoughts on Thibo’s head Injuries.

The large rain drop shaped skull crush injury is accompanied by the longer fracture around to the front of the skull.  Given that a typical head weighs about 5 to 6 kg, it would probably take a significant fall to cause that level of damage.  Probably a fall greater than that which could be credible on the pass.  Looking at the injury more closely it appears as if whatever caused the rain drop shaped crush also continued to apply continued force to right side of the skull initiating and propagating the long fracture.  Is such an injury more consistent with a large heavy rock being dropped on his head thus allowing the continued application of force to the head between the rock and the ground?

Regards

Star man

I think some of the injuries could easily have been caused by a BEAR. But Iam not saying that a BEAR caused those injuries. Also on the subject of strange creatures like the alleged YETI, then I would have thought such a creature could also have caused those injuries. And again Iam not saying that a YETI caused those injuries.

Agree that we should not assume that the alleged Yeti was involved.  This needs to be an objective analysis of the theory allowing the suspension of disbelief. 

I am just looking for better evidence either for or against.

I may suggest controversial claims for the sake of the argument though.

Regards

Star man

Well its going to be difficult regarding evidence for the Yeti Theory. All we have is sightings and experiences from other places and other times. We cant do DNA tests because we have no TENT or CLOTHES from any of the Dyatlov Group. And we have no other OBJECTS as far as I know  !  ? What happened to all the EQUIPMENT  !  ?  In any case of potential MURDER or unusual circumstances the Authorities of any Country would be likely to keep some OBJECTS for the future in case of progress in FORENSICS. But not it appears the Russian Authorities dealing with the Dyatlov Case.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 22, 2019, 03:16:42 PM
Ok this is just an observation and it is definitely a little controversial.

First I want you to think about holding a football in your hands with one hand either side. Now imagine yourself trying to squeeze the football as hard as you can.  You could actually try it but be careful not to do yourself an injury.  Which part of your hands do you use to ensure you can apply the most pressure?

Now look at the shape of that part of your hand.  Are you looking at the ball of your thumb? Now look at the shape of the crush injury on Thibeaux-Brignolle’s skull.

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.

Of course there could be other things that could cause a skull fracture shape like that which I am investigating.

Regards

Star man

That sounds interesting. Same hands or hands attached to arms that could have crushed Dubinina's chest maybe. No human could cause those type of Chest injuries.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 22, 2019, 03:23:55 PM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

In other words no Human hands could have crushed the Skull.

https://www.sciencealert.com/game-of-thrones-exposed-the-science-of-skull-crushing
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 22, 2019, 03:31:32 PM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

Pressure of 450kg sounds like a lot, but the test was performed with almost no acceleration which requires much more force compared to a direct impact with blunt object. The other thing ist the area of impact (smaller area of impact is more likely to cause the fracture). It is possible to inflict such injury with human powers as it happened before in combat sports or even football.

Chelsea goalkeeper sustained a similar fracture some years ago by being hit by the knee or shinguard of the opposition player.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2300976/Champions-League-final-Graphic-MRI-scans-of-Petr-Cechs-head-injury-published.html

The 450kg would be the static force yes.  I would say there will be some variability - possibly +/- 100kg,.  Will vary from person to person.  Also dynamic loads/forces such as being hit with a blunt object or blunt weapon, or falling and hitting head against something hard would not require something with a mass of 450 kg.  I am looking into some Of these possibilities.

Yes it probably is possible for a human to inflict this kind of injury.  Some of the worlds strongest men could probably do it by crushing the skill with their bare hands even.  But applying dynamic loads would be easier.

When I have some more data I'll post it.

Regards

Star man

Interesting. I think we need to look at other injuries on other Dyatlov Bodies to build up a picture of NON HUMAN involvement in those injuries. I post this link again for food for thought.   https://www.sciencealert.com/game-of-thrones-exposed-the-science-of-skull-crushing
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 22, 2019, 03:34:07 PM
Thibo’s head injury taken in isolation doesn’t reveal anything astonishing.  However when considered holistically with the rav 4.  There are some interesting observations:

1. At least one of the rav four had a knife. This was used to remove clothing from their dead friends at the cedar.

2. The autopsy reports mentions nothing about rope marks on their ankles and wrists, indicating that they were not tied up or restrained.

3. Three of the group had significant injuries.  Any one of which could be explained by a significant fall.  But all three together and with no damage to wrists or ankles is very unlikely (unless they were all unconscious) which is even more unlikely.  This would point to an act of violence by someone or something.

4.  Although Thibo’s head injury could have been caused by another person using a blunt instrument, Semyon and Lyuda’s injuries would have taken a force beyond that which any human could muster.  I think is safe to exclude explosions too as there would be cuts from small pieces of debris and possibly scorch marks. There is no evidence of any explosion.

5. If they were not constrained and had a knife why would their attackers use primitive methods of attack?  The rav four were not stabbed, shot. Or cut by any blade.

It would seem to me that if they were attacked, then whatever/whoever attacked them was also the same thing that drove them from the tent.

Regards
Star man

Yes we need to build up a picture of NON HUMAN involvement in the whole Dyatlov Case.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 22, 2019, 03:37:32 PM
Lets have another quick look at the cedar.  The two Yuris climbed the tree. Given the injuries to the hands and bruises and abrasions to their bodies and the fact that skin was found on the bark of the tree, does that sound like they were climbing to look for fire wood? Or to make a lookout? Or to find safety?

Regards
Star man

I would say it looks like they were trying to get away from something. A last desperate attempt to escape from some ENTITY.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 22, 2019, 03:56:28 PM
In my opinion, they may have simply needed dry firewood.  In these conditions, everything on the ground is water-logged and subsequently frozen.  It makes more sense to collect dry dead branches still attached to a tree.   After you have a good bed of hot coals, it's possible to thaw and dry wood from the ground, but they didn't get that far.  No, they HAD to have dry wood still attached to a tree to have any chance of getting a fire going.

This is like camping 101.

But why choose that particular tree to climb when there were other SIBERIAN PINE TREES all around, and easier to get at as far as getting the branches suitable for burning   !  ?  Why choose a tall tree like that ! ?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 22, 2019, 04:28:40 PM
In my opinion, they may have simply needed dry firewood.  In these conditions, everything on the ground is water-logged and subsequently frozen.  It makes more sense to collect dry dead branches still attached to a tree.   After you have a good bed of hot coals, it's possible to thaw and dry wood from the ground, but they didn't get that far.  No, they HAD to have dry wood still attached to a tree to have any chance of getting a fire going.

This is like camping 101.

It is possible that they could have scrambled up the tree in desperation even to get fire wood.  If they were freezing to death and the only dry fire wood was on the cedar then the wood becomes a matter of life and death?

I think the cedar is worth considering in more detail to understand it objectively in the context of this particular theory.

Here is something to think about and worth discussing:

Would you agree that there is a fair amount of evidence that Yuris D climbed the cedar? - moss and pine needles in his hair, cuts, bruises and abrasions on his body and particularly around arm pits.  It's unlikely that he got those abrasions and bruises in those locations while descending the slope?

Now, we don't know exactly who was at the cedar and when.  Yuris D and Yuris K were there.  Some of the other group members may have been there earlier on, or not until later when the clothes were removed.

What we do know however, is that not everybody would "need" to climb the tree to collect the dry wood.  It would only take one person to climb, and break down the branches and throw them to the ground.

We also know from the autopsy reports that Yuris D had severe frost bite on his fingers and toes.  So much so that it is said that if he had survived he would have needed his toes and fingers amputated.

So the first question: did Yuris D sustain the severe frost bite before or after the fire was lit?

Probably before?  If the fire was lit before the frost bite then he shouldn't really have gotten the frost bite.

But if he had severe frost bite before the fire was lit then he probably wasn't the best choice of person to collect fire wood from the cedar.  So why would he climb the tree?

If he and Yuris K were the only ones at the cedar then Yuri K would be better placed to climb the tree and pull the dry wood down?  If there were other members of the group there then most of them would be more capable of climbing and collecting the wood.  But for some reason Yuri D still climbed the tree with frost bitten fingers and toes so severe that they would require amputation?

Or was there another reason for climbing the tree with severely frost bitten fingers and toes?

Are there any other explanations?

Regards

Star man



Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on July 22, 2019, 07:00:40 PM
I think you lose feeling in your fingers long before you actually get the frostbite, so I wouldn't imagine him 'not' being able to climb the cedar just prior to frostbite. The fire seems very insufficient and likely unable to do much, especially with a fair wind.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on July 22, 2019, 11:27:57 PM
That sounds interesting. Same hands or hands attached to arms that could have crushed Dubinina's chest maybe. No human could cause those type of Chest injuries.

That is a very bold statement with no factual basis. Rib fractures are often inflicted y manual resuscitation so I see no reason that even 8-9 ribs could have been broken by for example stomping on person's chest while lying down on the floor. The force equals attaker weight multiplied by acceleration. This is very basic medical knowledge.

https://www.primemedicaltraining.com/does-cpr-break-ribs/
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on July 22, 2019, 11:31:44 PM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

In other words no Human hands could have crushed the Skull.

https://www.sciencealert.com/game-of-thrones-exposed-the-science-of-skull-crushing

Actually, quite the opposite. Static force vs. dynamic force. I provided the example that completely dismisses above claim about "no human hands could have crushed the skull". As it happened before even unintentionally, it is possible.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 22, 2019, 11:41:52 PM
I think you lose feeling in your fingers long before you actually get the frostbite, so I wouldn't imagine him 'not' being able to climb the cedar just prior to frostbite. The fire seems very insufficient and likely unable to do much, especially with a fair wind.

If he had lost the feeling (and strength) in his fingers.  It would be difficult for him to climb the cedar tree without help.  So if he was in the cedar it is possible he was hauled up it by his friends which would explain all the abrasions?  I think the two Yuris had already lost too much body heat before the fire was lit. Or maybe they were forced to wait in the cedar frightened to climb down?

Either way it is odd that Yuri D both had severe frost bite and climbed the tree.
Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on July 22, 2019, 11:56:47 PM
Part of the mystery...  But I like the way you think.    thumb1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 23, 2019, 04:07:11 AM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

Pressure of 450kg sounds like a lot, but the test was performed with almost no acceleration which requires much more force compared to a direct impact with blunt object. The other thing ist the area of impact (smaller area of impact is more likely to cause the fracture). It is possible to inflict such injury with human powers as it happened before in combat sports or even football.

Chelsea goalkeeper sustained a similar fracture some years ago by being hit by the knee or shinguard of the opposition player.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2300976/Champions-League-final-Graphic-MRI-scans-of-Petr-Cechs-head-injury-published.html

The 450kg would be the static force yes.  I would say there will be some variability - possibly +/- 100kg,.  Will vary from person to person.  Also dynamic loads/forces such as being hit with a blunt object or blunt weapon, or falling and hitting head against something hard would not require something with a mass of 450 kg.  I am looking into some Of these possibilities.

Yes it probably is possible for a human to inflict this kind of injury.  Some of the worlds strongest men could probably do it by crushing the skill with their bare hands even.  But applying dynamic loads would be easier.

When I have some more data I'll post it.

Regards

Star man

Interesting. I think we need to look at other injuries on other Dyatlov Bodies to build up a picture of NON HUMAN involvement in those injuries. I post this link again for food for thought.   https://www.sciencealert.com/game-of-thrones-exposed-the-science-of-skull-crushing

Yes I am kind of looking into the injuries to assess how they could have happened.

The link you provided seems to support my calculations on the skull crush injury.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 23, 2019, 04:17:33 AM
Part of the mystery...  But I like the way you think.    thumb1

There is some potential for irrational decision making given the circumstances on the pass. I suppose there might not be a logical explanation for everything but we can only dig and speculate.

I have a couple of other potentially  interesting and controversial thoughts in relation to this topic but I will keep hold of them for now and do a bit more research before discussing them.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 24, 2019, 08:51:22 AM
Ok this is just an observation and it is definitely a little controversial.

First I want you to think about holding a football in your hands with one hand either side. Now imagine yourself trying to squeeze the football as hard as you can.  You could actually try it but be careful not to do yourself an injury.  Which part of your hands do you use to ensure you can apply the most pressure?

Now look at the shape of that part of your hand.  Are you looking at the ball of your thumb? Now look at the shape of the crush injury on Thibeaux-Brignolle’s skull.

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.

Of course there could be other things that could cause a skull fracture shape like that which I am investigating.

Regards

Star man

Just another observation relevant to the above post:

Zina long bruise.  29 cm long or about 12 inches.  Coincidence?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 24, 2019, 01:54:08 PM
That sounds interesting. Same hands or hands attached to arms that could have crushed Dubinina's chest maybe. No human could cause those type of Chest injuries.

That is a very bold statement with no factual basis. Rib fractures are often inflicted y manual resuscitation so I see no reason that even 8-9 ribs could have been broken by for example stomping on person's chest while lying down on the floor. The force equals attaker weight multiplied by acceleration. This is very basic medical knowledge.

https://www.primemedicaltraining.com/does-cpr-break-ribs/

No suggestion of Human Involvement in those Injuries in the original Investigation and Autopsy  !  ? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 24, 2019, 01:56:20 PM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

In other words no Human hands could have crushed the Skull.

https://www.sciencealert.com/game-of-thrones-exposed-the-science-of-skull-crushing

Actually, quite the opposite. Static force vs. dynamic force. I provided the example that completely dismisses above claim about "no human hands could have crushed the skull". As it happened before even unintentionally, it is possible.

I think you will find plenty of evidence that suggests that NO HUMAN HANDS could crush another Humans Skull.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 24, 2019, 03:50:45 PM
Have been looking at Rustems head injury in a bit more detail:

In the autopsy report it explains that there are diffuse haemorrhages into "both" temporal muscles.  Now Rustem's fracture looks like it begins from the left temporal region, but he also has a very similar injury on the opposite side of his head.  Now Thibo's autopsy report clearly mentions the haemorrhage on the same side of the crush injury, but nothing about the other side of his head.  Is this because there is nothing to report, or is it because the report focuses more specifically on the obvious significant injury?  I would have thought that for an autopsy report that everything is important to catalogue?  But the reports for the Dyatlov group do seem to be lacking in some respects.

It is possible that Rustem slowly succumbs to the cold and repeatedly falls hitting his head and resulting in the fracutre.  He has lots of minor abrasions on his face that would point to this.  It is also possible that he has sustained blows to both sides of his head.  What I find odd though is that both these injuries are almost directly opposite each other.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on July 25, 2019, 02:07:58 AM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

In other words no Human hands could have crushed the Skull.

https://www.sciencealert.com/game-of-thrones-exposed-the-science-of-skull-crushing

Actually, quite the opposite. Static force vs. dynamic force. I provided the example that completely dismisses above claim about "no human hands could have crushed the skull". As it happened before even unintentionally, it is possible.

I think you will find plenty of evidence that suggests that NO HUMAN HANDS could crush another Humans Skull.

It is enough to find ONE piece of evidence that it is possible to prove that wrong. I provided an article along with X.ray scans of similar fracture caused by kicking with a knee.

Here we have some more, it is about time to retract your statement, use google to find even more examples: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/mma/bellator-158-evangelista-cyborg-santos-video-fractured-skull-michael-venom-page-flying-knee-knockout-a7142211.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2952091/Teenager-fractured-19-year-old-s-skull-single-punch-victim-asked-light-McDonald-s-SPARED-prison.html

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10831229_Punched_With_A_Fist_The_Etiology_of_a_Fatal_Depressed_Cranial_Fracture
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on July 25, 2019, 02:09:36 AM
That sounds interesting. Same hands or hands attached to arms that could have crushed Dubinina's chest maybe. No human could cause those type of Chest injuries.

That is a very bold statement with no factual basis. Rib fractures are often inflicted y manual resuscitation so I see no reason that even 8-9 ribs could have been broken by for example stomping on person's chest while lying down on the floor. The force equals attaker weight multiplied by acceleration. This is very basic medical knowledge.

https://www.primemedicaltraining.com/does-cpr-break-ribs/

No suggestion of Human Involvement in those Injuries in the original Investigation and Autopsy  !  ?

Absolutely irrelevant. There is no cause mentioned at all which leaves all technically plausible options on the table.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 25, 2019, 04:47:39 AM
Further thoughts on Rustem skull fracture and a pattern that is becoming more clear with the injuries of the rav 4:

Rustem injury to his head could have been caused by him first being knocked to the floor and subsequently receiving a heavy blow to the right hand side of his head in the temporal region.  If his head was slightly raised then the blow would knock the right side of his head against the floor thus sustaining both the fracture on the left and diffuse bleeding in the right temporal muscle.  The scratches on his face are consistent with being dragged by his leg.

Now let’s look at Lyuda.  Significant soft tissue damage to face and eye lids, lips and tissue loss .  Again this is consistent with being dragged around violently by her leg.  The rib fractures could have been caused by two significant blows to the thorax.  Each fracture would have required 800kg of force and possibly even a bit more.  Saying that Lyuda May have suffered many more less powerful blows but probably not.

Semyon shows the same pattern of tissue loss around eye brows a significant laceration on his head and the heavy blow to the ribs causing a flail chest.

Thibo- as well as the ball of the thumb being the same shape as his crush injury- so is bottom of the side of hand (at base of little finger.

There appears to a pattern there.  It looks like they were first knocked to the ground. Worried or dragged- some more than others and beaten by someone or something very very powerful - using more force than any normal human being could generate.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 25, 2019, 04:59:37 AM
The puzzle at the tent:

Why did the tourists frantically leave the tent- not stopping to collect essential clothing shoes and equipment- and then calmly walk down the slope?  It doesn’t make sense.  Yet the foot prints suggest this is what happened?

So let me ask you a question:

The group are disturbed by something outside the tent.  Something very unusual and realise there is some kind of dangerous creature outside.  In fear they leave the tent and are confronted by this very dangerous creature.  Now here is the question.  Do you:

A - run away down the slope screaming as you go?
B - move away slowly and quietly away from the creature and down the slope?

No need to actually answer- just think about it.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on July 25, 2019, 05:49:59 AM

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.


Just another observation relevant to the above post:

Zina long bruise.  29 cm long or about 12 inches.  Coincidence?

Regards
Star man

I think it's highly plausible that the same 'weapon' inflicted the injuries to the people in the same area. However, it is hard to determine what that was from evidence we have. In case of Tibo, the cap probably prevented soft tissue damage and even on other bodies we cannot see the hemorrhage developed properly due to cold conditions.

Just from observation, I think it would be much easier to inflict that kind of damage by foot (especially the rib fractures) rather than hands. Seems too inefficient to do that with hands as long as easier way exists.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 25, 2019, 08:31:46 AM

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.


Just another observation relevant to the above post:

Zina long bruise.  29 cm long or about 12 inches.  Coincidence?

Regards
Star man

I think it's highly plausible that the same 'weapon' inflicted the injuries to the people in the same area. However, it is hard to determine what that was from evidence we have. In case of Tibo, the cap probably prevented soft tissue damage and even on other bodies we cannot see the hemorrhage developed properly due to cold conditions.

Just from observation, I think it would be much easier to inflict that kind of damage by foot (especially the rib fractures) rather than hands. Seems too inefficient to do that with hands as long as easier way exists.

Hi Gypsy,

Yes I the injuries could be caused by the same weapon too, but could it not have been a very large powerful hand?

Zina was only swiped.  The others were beaten to death?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 25, 2019, 08:36:48 AM
The camera and the knife:

The rav four must have had a knife? To cut the clothes off their dead friends and cut the branches for the den.  So what happened to the knife.  Did it just walk off by itself?

Semyon camera - found still hanging around his neck.  Why would human murders just leave it?  And where are the 9 missing frames?

Of course if the murderer was a Yeti I doubt it would be interested in a camera?

Regards
Star man



Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on July 25, 2019, 12:07:13 PM


Hi Gypsy,

Yes I the injuries could be caused by the same weapon too, but could it not have been a very large powerful hand?

Zina was only swiped.  The others were beaten to death?

Regards
Star man

I don't mean to be specific about the "weapon". It could be anything. It is just natural to assume that people who found their demise at the same place and time have a common cause of death.

I will ask a question. Do you thing that the injuries were intentional or accidential?
I'm not looking for a straight answer, I'd rather hear what speaks for or against one or another.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 25, 2019, 03:32:49 PM


Hi Gypsy,

Yes I the injuries could be caused by the same weapon too, but could it not have been a very large powerful hand?

Zina was only swiped.  The others were beaten to death?

Regards
Star man

I don't mean to be specific about the "weapon". It could be anything. It is just natural to assume that people who found their demise at the same place and time have a common cause of death.

I will ask a question. Do you thing that the injuries were intentional or accidential?
I'm not looking for a straight answer, I'd rather hear what speaks for or against one or another.

Hi Gypsy,

It depends on the context of the question.  I believ the whole thing was unintentional.  But the specific injuries were intentional, but not with intelligent malign.

I believe that I now know what happened on the pass.  And I will present my views in a new topic under general discussion called

"what really happened on the pass"

Regards

Star man
I now believe that the injuries were intentional.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 27, 2019, 04:48:05 PM
When I started this thread I didn't actually think that I would discover anything of interest, but I wanted to do this topic justice and approach it in an objective way.  I was a skeptic of the Yeti theory.  But I am no where near as skeptical now as when I started this thread.

I think there is clear evidence that the Dyatlov group were attacked by an ape(s) or an ape like creature.  The feedback I have received on whether a normal ape would be capable of overwhelming 9 fit healthy tourists is reasonable.  Given that there were axes, ice picks, knives and 9 physically fit and strong people why could they not have killed or at least driven a normal ape away?  Also why would a normal ape be on Kholat Syakhl in a storm in the middle of nowhere?  Yet the injuries sustained by at least some of the group are consistent with an attack from an ape,like creature.  A creature capable of inflicting immensely powerful blows.  A creature that had hands.

In previous posts ai have made some calculations around the hands of this creature.  Thibo's head injury shape is consistent with shape of the pads of the hand.  Either the ball of the thumb, or the pad on the side of the hand where the little finger is.  The radius of curvature of the injury on Thibo's head is consistent with the radius of curvature of the pad of the hand.  The force required to cause Thibo's head injury is beyon that which a human being can muster with their bare hands.

The pattern of injuries on Lyuda and Semyon is consistent with some kind of ape attack.  The blows required to inflict those injuries would need to be in excess of 800kg force.  The pattern of damage to the head and face and loss of soft tissue is consistent with being dragged around the ground violently.  And yes Luda's eyes, tongue and Semyon's eyes could well have been ripped out by this creature, either during the assault or later after they had died.

With regard to the Yeti - what could be a myth is the size of their feet, and whether they are entirely bipedal or partly quadrupeds.  If they are partly quadrupeds then their feet would not require to be that large as their weight would also be taken up by their hands as they moved about.  However, the shape of their feet may be very close to humans.

Rustems head injury is also consistent with the same type of attack but to a lesser severity.

It seems zina and Dyatlov avoided a fatal confrontation with this creature, but died of hypothermia.

Yuris D definitely climbed the cedar in desperation to find safety.  He probably clanged onto this tree for some time as his fingers and toes were so frost bitten by the time the fire was lit that hemwouldnhave had to have them amputated.

The witness statements say that when the group were descending the slope, some of the group members split off for a while and then came back to join the main group.  This is odd.  Why would they do that?  Unless those that split off were not group members, or even human.  Instead is it possible that they were ape like creatures, stalking the terrified group as they descended the slope, while periodically moving toward them and attacking them as descended? Initially, the group would have been strong and maybe capable of defending themselves, but as time went by the cold played its part, and slowly the group became weaker until they could not longer fend off any attacks?

When I examine a theory I like to find evidence to support it.  Some the evidence is presented in previous posts on this thread.  But there is something else that could be done:

1.  I would suggest that an expert Primatologist examines any available photographs of the foot prints.  Also, an expert Primatologist consider the pattern of injuries and the power required to inflict them.

For Lyuda's injury I have estimated a force in excess of 800kgs.  I don't even think a Chimpanzee can inflict such sever injury or generate such force.  A mountain Gorilla maybe, but even this would probably be at the limit of what it could do.  Also chimps and Gorillas are normally gentle creatures unless deliberately provoked.  So what was on the pass that night?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: NkZ on July 28, 2019, 05:17:53 AM
I've always been sentimental on the possibility of Yeti, even if demographic statistics are not in favor!
There is indeed a long history of sightings in the area : http://www.alamas.ru/eng/publicat/Tracks_near_Ob_e.htm
http://www.stgr-primates.de/news.html
So many legends might have a little real ground?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 28, 2019, 10:02:26 AM
I've always been sentimental on the possibility of Yeti, even if demographic statistics are not in favor!
There is indeed a long history of sightings in the area : http://www.alamas.ru/eng/publicat/Tracks_near_Ob_e.htm
http://www.stgr-primates.de/news.html
So many legends might have a little real ground?

I am a lot more receptive to it than I was.  I would like to know if a normal great ape could cause those injuries?

Thanks for the links.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 30, 2019, 05:57:14 AM
The Dyatlov pass incident is  a complicated mystery. For certain whatever happened that night was unusual.

Identifying the single common denominator that could help explain the events at the tent, the slope, the cedar, and the ravine along with the strange injuries may go some way to help solve the mystery.

I now believe that the single common denominator could well be the involvement of an ape or ape like creature.  I have presented my thoughts on this below:

The Tent
Whatever made the group leave the tent without adequate clothing or shoes the way they did must have been terrifying and a significant threat to their lives.  The tent appears to have been cut from inside (at least for three of the cuts). Page 303 of the case files provides good evidence of this.  I suspect that much of the damage though was done during the recovery of the tent.

So what happened at the tent?  Semyon grabs his camera.  If he had seen something strange like an ape on Kholat Syakhl that would be a reasonable reason to grab a camera and try to take a photo.  Maybe he or the others did not realise the danger at first. But then whatever it was became aggressive and attacked them.

I suspect that some of them ran back into the tent and were followed by this creature which now blocked their only means of escape. Kolevatov may have pulled his knife from its sheath outside and then retreated into the tent.  Those in the tent then attempted to cut the fabric to make a new exit while others tried to fend off the attacker.  There is evidence that the group engaged in some kind of fight with their hands.  Why the axes or ice pick were left at the entrance is difficult to explain but could simply be because of the level of panic.

After leaving the now damaged tent the group cautiously retreat down the slope.  Note that the foot prints of an ape are similar to that of a human but the big toe is more thumb like and would be shorter.

The slope

There is evidence that while they descended the slope they were attacked again.  The flash light 400m from the tent was dropped but not picked back up indicating confusion, haste, or fear of returning to where the flash light was dropped.  The group had items of equipment that other humans would unlikely allow them to take with them if their attackers had been human - knife, flashlight, camera, matches.  The whole scene indicates that they were under duress but not from any human foe.


Rustem probably didn’t make it to the cedar.  It appears that he was attacked and fought back.  His injuries are consistent with a fist fight and receiving a heavy blow to the head while he was on the ground. The diffuse bleeding in both temporal muscles is an indicator of this.

When the group get to the cedar there is clear evidence that they scrambled up the tree for safety.  The scrapes, minor lacerations around arm pits is an indicator of this plus the skin found on the bark.  But the main clue is Yuri D who’s fingers and toes were so badly frost bitten that he would have needed to have them amputated if he had survived.  This must have happened before the fire was lit indicating that Yuri D was clinging to the tree for a while along with Yuri K who had bit a piece of skin off the back of his hand.

The fire was probably lit to keep warm and also to keep something away.  But whenever it was lit it was too late for Yuri D and Yuri K.

The ravine

Thibo’s head injury is the same shape as the pad of a hand.  The force required to cause that injury would be in excess of 450kg.  No human could do that with their bare hands.  The lack of soft tissue damage is also supported by an impact From something soft  like the pad of a hand but with tremendous force.  Thibo’s head injury if happened in isolation could be explained by a fall, but combined with Lyuda and Semyon it indicates something more sinister and akin to them being attacked and beaten by something with super human strength.  Lyuda and Semyon injuries could also be explained by a fall.  The force required to cause Lyuda and Semyon’s injuries from a single impact would be 2500 kg, but the lack of injuries to limbs, ankles and wrists is unusual.  Together there is a clear pattern that they have been attacked, knocked to the ground dragged around violently and beaten severely again with super human force.

The signs of hand to hand combat combined with these injuries is clear evidence of confrontation with something very powerful.

Another key indicator of a confrontation with some kind of powerful animal is the fact that although the group had at least one knife the attacker has used primitive methods (ie beaten them to death). 

Regards
Star man



Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 30, 2019, 12:52:16 PM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

In other words no Human hands could have crushed the Skull.

https://www.sciencealert.com/game-of-thrones-exposed-the-science-of-skull-crushing

Actually, quite the opposite. Static force vs. dynamic force. I provided the example that completely dismisses above claim about "no human hands could have crushed the skull". As it happened before even unintentionally, it is possible.

I think you will find plenty of evidence that suggests that NO HUMAN HANDS could crush another Humans Skull.

It is enough to find ONE piece of evidence that it is possible to prove that wrong. I provided an article along with X.ray scans of similar fracture caused by kicking with a knee.

Here we have some more, it is about time to retract your statement, use google to find even more examples: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/mma/bellator-158-evangelista-cyborg-santos-video-fractured-skull-michael-venom-page-flying-knee-knockout-a7142211.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2952091/Teenager-fractured-19-year-old-s-skull-single-punch-victim-asked-light-McDonald-s-SPARED-prison.html

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10831229_Punched_With_A_Fist_The_Etiology_of_a_Fatal_Depressed_Cranial_Fracture

One injury was due to a KNEE. The other was due to an old injury made worse by the blow to the head with a FIST. Nothing about Heads being crushed by Human HANDS  !  ? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 30, 2019, 12:54:48 PM
That sounds interesting. Same hands or hands attached to arms that could have crushed Dubinina's chest maybe. No human could cause those type of Chest injuries.

That is a very bold statement with no factual basis. Rib fractures are often inflicted y manual resuscitation so I see no reason that even 8-9 ribs could have been broken by for example stomping on person's chest while lying down on the floor. The force equals attaker weight multiplied by acceleration. This is very basic medical knowledge.

https://www.primemedicaltraining.com/does-cpr-break-ribs/

No suggestion of Human Involvement in those Injuries in the original Investigation and Autopsy  !  ?

Absolutely irrelevant. There is no cause mentioned at all which leaves all technically plausible options on the table.

You contradict yourself then. All the possible causes must be relevant even if not proved.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 30, 2019, 12:57:32 PM

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.


Just another observation relevant to the above post:

Zina long bruise.  29 cm long or about 12 inches.  Coincidence?

Regards
Star man

I think it's highly plausible that the same 'weapon' inflicted the injuries to the people in the same area. However, it is hard to determine what that was from evidence we have. In case of Tibo, the cap probably prevented soft tissue damage and even on other bodies we cannot see the hemorrhage developed properly due to cold conditions.

Just from observation, I think it would be much easier to inflict that kind of damage by foot (especially the rib fractures) rather than hands. Seems too inefficient to do that with hands as long as easier way exists.

And yet the original Investigation suggests injuries likened to a CAR CRASH. Hardly the work of someones foot then.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 30, 2019, 01:16:05 PM
I've always been sentimental on the possibility of Yeti, even if demographic statistics are not in favor!
There is indeed a long history of sightings in the area : http://www.alamas.ru/eng/publicat/Tracks_near_Ob_e.htm
http://www.stgr-primates.de/news.html
So many legends might have a little real ground?

Well done digging up this information.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 30, 2019, 11:41:44 PM
The Dyatlov pass incident is  a complicated mystery. For certain whatever happened that night was unusual.

Identifying the single common denominator that could help explain the events at the tent, the slope, the cedar, and the ravine along with the strange injuries may go some way to help solve the mystery.

I now believe that the single common denominator could well be the involvement of an ape or ape like creature.  I have presented my thoughts on this below:

The Tent
Whatever made the group leave the tent without adequate clothing or shoes the way they did must have been terrifying and a significant threat to their lives.  The tent appears to have been cut from inside (at least for three of the cuts). Page 303 of the case files provides good evidence of this.  I suspect that much of the damage though was done during the recovery of the tent.

So what happened at the tent?  Semyon grabs his camera.  If he had seen something strange like an ape on Kholat Syakhl that would be a reasonable reason to grab a camera and try to take a photo.  Maybe he or the others did not realise the danger at first. But then whatever it was became aggressive and attacked them.

I suspect that some of them ran back into the tent and were followed by this creature which now blocked their only means of escape. Kolevatov may have pulled his knife from its sheath outside and then retreated into the tent.  Those in the tent then attempted to cut the fabric to make a new exit while others tried to fend off the attacker.  There is evidence that the group engaged in some kind of fight with their hands.  Why the axes or ice pick were left at the entrance is difficult to explain but could simply be because of the level of panic.

After leaving the now damaged tent the group cautiously retreat down the slope.  Note that the foot prints of an ape are similar to that of a human but the big toe is more thumb like and would be shorter.

The slope

There is evidence that while they descended the slope they were attacked again.  The flash light 400m from the tent was dropped but not picked back up indicating confusion, haste, or fear of returning to where the flash light was dropped.  The group had items of equipment that other humans would unlikely allow them to take with them if their attackers had been human - knife, flashlight, camera, matches.  The whole scene indicates that they were under duress but not from any human foe.


Rustem probably didn’t make it to the cedar.  It appears that he was attacked and fought back.  His injuries are consistent with a fist fight and receiving a heavy blow to the head while he was on the ground. The diffuse bleeding in both temporal muscles is an indicator of this.

When the group get to the cedar there is clear evidence that they scrambled up the tree for safety.  The scrapes, minor lacerations around arm pits is an indicator of this plus the skin found on the bark.  But the main clue is Yuri D who’s fingers and toes were so badly frost bitten that he would have needed to have them amputated if he had survived.  This must have happened before the fire was lit indicating that Yuri D was clinging to the tree for a while along with Yuri K who had bit a piece of skin off the back of his hand.

The fire was probably lit to keep warm and also to keep something away.  But whenever it was lit it was too late for Yuri D and Yuri K.

The ravine

Thibo’s head injury is the same shape as the pad of a hand.  The force required to cause that injury would be in excess of 450kg.  No human could do that with their bare hands.  The lack of soft tissue damage is also supported by an impact From something soft  like the pad of a hand but with tremendous force.  Thibo’s head injury if happened in isolation could be explained by a fall, but combined with Lyuda and Semyon it indicates something more sinister and akin to them being attacked and beaten by something with super human strength.  Lyuda and Semyon injuries could also be explained by a fall.  The force required to cause Lyuda and Semyon’s injuries from a single impact would be 2500 kg, but the lack of injuries to limbs, ankles and wrists is unusual.  Together there is a clear pattern that they have been attacked, knocked to the ground dragged around violently and beaten severely again with super human force.

The signs of hand to hand combat combined with these injuries is clear evidence of confrontation with something very powerful.

Another key indicator of a confrontation with some kind of powerful animal is the fact that although the group had at least one knife the attacker has used primitive methods (ie beaten them to death). 

Regards
Star man

There is something missing from the above picture.  When apes attack quite often they bite.  Chimpanzees in particular like to bite off the fingers of their foe (charming).  Gorillas also bite.  Yet there is no evidence of any bite injuries on any of the Dyatlov group.  Or at least none reported.  Chimpanzees also have a fondness of mutilating the face of their victims. 

The other issue is the level of aggression.  Chimpanzees form so called war parties in the wild and go on the rampage attacking other chimp groups or hunting monkeys.

However the level of aggression on the pass if normal apes were involved is somewhat odd.

Could the attacker have been more intelligent than a normal ape?  More research is required on this I think.

Regards
Star man



Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on July 31, 2019, 03:30:25 AM

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.


Just another observation relevant to the above post:

Zina long bruise.  29 cm long or about 12 inches.  Coincidence?

Regards
Star man

I think it's highly plausible that the same 'weapon' inflicted the injuries to the people in the same area. However, it is hard to determine what that was from evidence we have. In case of Tibo, the cap probably prevented soft tissue damage and even on other bodies we cannot see the hemorrhage developed properly due to cold conditions.

Just from observation, I think it would be much easier to inflict that kind of damage by foot (especially the rib fractures) rather than hands. Seems too inefficient to do that with hands as long as easier way exists.

And yet the original Investigation suggests injuries likened to a CAR CRASH. Hardly the work of someones foot then.

That is an example, not a conclusion. Not to mention there is no data such as speed, mechanism of impact or anything.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 31, 2019, 11:46:41 PM
In the case files it talks about a blanket being placed over the two Yuris?  Any idea how this blanket got there?  Or why it was placed on the Yuris given it would have been useful resource for keeping warm?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on August 01, 2019, 01:47:24 AM


One injury was due to a KNEE. The other was due to an old injury made worse by the blow to the head with a FIST. Nothing about Heads being crushed by Human HANDS  !  ?

In other words it is possible under specific circumstances. "Bare hands" narrative is irrelevant as there are simple ways to do it otherwise /knee, elbow, tactical gloves, blunt object etc. which means a (powerful enough) human can cause a skull fracture and no entities of questionable existence are needed to explain the injuries at all.

PS. Fist=bare hands, no difference there
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 01, 2019, 04:24:11 PM


One injury was due to a KNEE. The other was due to an old injury made worse by the blow to the head with a FIST. Nothing about Heads being crushed by Human HANDS  !  ?

In other words it is possible under specific circumstances. "Bare hands" narrative is irrelevant as there are simple ways to do it otherwise /knee, elbow, tactical gloves, blunt object etc. which means a (powerful enough) human can cause a skull fracture and no entities of questionable existence are needed to explain the injuries at all.

PS. Fist=bare hands, no difference there

Hi Gypsy,

I think it is possible to fracture the skull with a fist/punch but from what I have read it is right at the limit of what is possible for a professional heavy weight boxer.  A boxer can generate up to 500kg of force with a punch.  I have calculated the force to cause Thibo's skull fracture which was at least 450kg +\- variance.  This is backed up by other data on the net.  I am less sure about such an injury being caused by a knee.  I haven't done exhaustive research on this.

What is interesting to me though is the distinctive shape of Thibo's skull fracture and the lack of soft tissue damage.  Thibo's skull crush injury is kind of rain drop shaped.  I don't think that this would correspond very well with being hit with a first and irregular knuckles.  But I might be wrong.  Also not sure about the shape a knee would make.  However, what I do know is:

The shape of Thibo's fracture is pretty much "identical" to the shape of the pad of the ball of a thumb.

I made some measurements myself by making a thumb print with the ball of my own thumb and measuring the dimensions.  Now the shape my thumb print made was the same.  The shape is more or less an ellipse.  I measured the major and minor axis of my own print and took the ratio of major/minor axis ratio ( I.e length over width) and got the following results:

My thumb print = 1.25
Thibo's injury = 1.28

Try it yourself.  Will be interested in your result.

The difference is the size of the imprint/injury on Thibo's skull is much bigger.  I scaled it up based on my own hand and got a hand 30cm long and 15ish wide.  Obviously if Thibo's injury was caused by the application of static pressure by squeezing then that would also explain the lack of soft riddle damage.  A high speed impact, especially with a hard blunt object you might expect some soft tissue damage.

I also measured the pad of my own hand at the side under the little finger to see if that was the same shape.  The shape looked very similar but was more elongated, with major/minor axis ratio of 1.75. So not the same shape.

Thibo's head injury - if it happened in isolation might draw one to conclude that it could have been a fall.  And this is true.  But, the other injuries of Lyuda and Semyon are equally as astonishing in terms of the pattern and force.  A hand 30cm long impacting the ribs with a force in excess of 800kg could have caused those injuries.  It takes between 270 and 330 kg of force to break a single rib.  But to create a clean fracture line rough multiple ribs requires a single blow of very high force - beyond that which a human could deliver.  Note a human could break ribs, but the breaks would be irregular.  Have a look at them and think about it.

What is odd is the lack of any bite marks.  If the attack was animalistic in nature then there should be bite marks too - but nothing obvious.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on August 02, 2019, 12:22:22 PM


One injury was due to a KNEE. The other was due to an old injury made worse by the blow to the head with a FIST. Nothing about Heads being crushed by Human HANDS  !  ?

In other words it is possible under specific circumstances. "Bare hands" narrative is irrelevant as there are simple ways to do it otherwise /knee, elbow, tactical gloves, blunt object etc. which means a (powerful enough) human can cause a skull fracture and no entities of questionable existence are needed to explain the injuries at all.

PS. Fist=bare hands, no difference there

Hi Gypsy,

I think it is possible to fracture the skull with a fist/punch but from what I have read it is right at the limit of what is possible for a professional heavy weight boxer.  A boxer can generate up to 500kg of force with a punch.  I have calculated the force to cause Thibo's skull fracture which was at least 450kg +\- variance.  This is backed up by other data on the net.  I am less sure about such an injury being caused by a knee.  I haven't done exhaustive research on this.

What is interesting to me though is the distinctive shape of Thibo's skull fracture and the lack of soft tissue damage.  Thibo's skull crush injury is kind of rain drop shaped.  I don't think that this would correspond very well with being hit with a first and irregular knuckles.  But I might be wrong.  Also not sure about the shape a knee would make.  However, what I do know is:

The shape of Thibo's fracture is pretty much "identical" to the shape of the pad of the ball of a thumb.

I made some measurements myself by making a thumb print with the ball of my own thumb and measuring the dimensions.  Now the shape my thumb print made was the same.  The shape is more or less an ellipse.  I measured the major and minor axis of my own print and took the ratio of major/minor axis ratio ( I.e length over width) and got the following results:

My thumb print = 1.25
Thibo's injury = 1.28

Try it yourself.  Will be interested in your result.

The difference is the size of the imprint/injury on Thibo's skull is much bigger.  I scaled it up based on my own hand and got a hand 30cm long and 15ish wide.  Obviously if Thibo's injury was caused by the application of static pressure by squeezing then that would also explain the lack of soft riddle damage.  A high speed impact, especially with a hard blunt object you might expect some soft tissue damage.

I also measured the pad of my own hand at the side under the little finger to see if that was the same shape.  The shape looked very similar but was more elongated, with major/minor axis ratio of 1.75. So not the same shape.

Thibo's head injury - if it happened in isolation might draw one to conclude that it could have been a fall.  And this is true.  But, the other injuries of Lyuda and Semyon are equally as astonishing in terms of the pattern and force.  A hand 30cm long impacting the ribs with a force in excess of 800kg could have caused those injuries.  It takes between 270 and 330 kg of force to break a single rib.  But to create a clean fracture line rough multiple ribs requires a single blow of very high force - beyond that which a human could deliver.  Note a human could break ribs, but the breaks would be irregular.  Have a look at them and think about it.

What is odd is the lack of any bite marks.  If the attack was animalistic in nature then there should be bite marks too - but nothing obvious.

Regards

Star man

Are these measurements for static o dynamic force? In case of the latter, the force should be divided by acceleration which gives us more "human" results.

I agree that the most common cause of the flail chest or multiple rib fracture is a sudden deceleration or impact (such as car crash) or a fall. However, it is possible it is possible to "achieve" the same result with CPR / cardio-pulmonary resuscitation by applying repetitive pressure so the bone "wears out" until it breaks. Most of the cases include older patients of people with thinner bones like females or children or with lower mineral content of the bone tissue. We do not have enough forensic data from the victims so cannot calculate the exact force needed to break specific bones, I can only provide the examples of the documented cases and none of them include other than human involvement or one of the most common causes already mentioned.

As for the shape of the injuries, yes it fits the shape of a rather enlarged areas of the hand you described and I see nothing wrong at all to explore that option (among others). But do you think if there was a fight, no matter if between humans and/or apes, that would be the kind of area that does the most damage upon impact? I mean there are better ways to do do it such as punching, hitting with a knee or elbow, the ape would probably bite. I am not an expert on that, I would be happy to hear an opinion of somebody who knows how the chimpanzees or related species fight.

Am I wrong or Tibo was wearing two hats at the time of death? That would prevent the bruises for some time and spread the force a little so the area of impact would appear larger than it really was. Also the cold would suppress the creation of a bruise. There can be hardly any bruise in case a smooth-surface weapon, such as baseball bat, is used on the area of head covered by winter hat.

https://dergipark.org.tr/download/article-file/733978

Fractures of ribs 3, 4, 5, 6 caused only by CPR which is hardly 800kg of force, doctors and nurses do it every day and they are no bodybuilders or Anthony Joshuas: http://jtd.amegroups.com/article/viewFile/26057/pdf



Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 03, 2019, 02:10:31 AM


One injury was due to a KNEE. The other was due to an old injury made worse by the blow to the head with a FIST. Nothing about Heads being crushed by Human HANDS  !  ?

In other words it is possible under specific circumstances. "Bare hands" narrative is irrelevant as there are simple ways to do it otherwise /knee, elbow, tactical gloves, blunt object etc. which means a (powerful enough) human can cause a skull fracture and no entities of questionable existence are needed to explain the injuries at all.

PS. Fist=bare hands, no difference there

Hi Gypsy,

I think it is possible to fracture the skull with a fist/punch but from what I have read it is right at the limit of what is possible for a professional heavy weight boxer.  A boxer can generate up to 500kg of force with a punch.  I have calculated the force to cause Thibo's skull fracture which was at least 450kg +\- variance.  This is backed up by other data on the net.  I am less sure about such an injury being caused by a knee.  I haven't done exhaustive research on this.

What is interesting to me though is the distinctive shape of Thibo's skull fracture and the lack of soft tissue damage.  Thibo's skull crush injury is kind of rain drop shaped.  I don't think that this would correspond very well with being hit with a first and irregular knuckles.  But I might be wrong.  Also not sure about the shape a knee would make.  However, what I do know is:

The shape of Thibo's fracture is pretty much "identical" to the shape of the pad of the ball of a thumb.

I made some measurements myself by making a thumb print with the ball of my own thumb and measuring the dimensions.  Now the shape my thumb print made was the same.  The shape is more or less an ellipse.  I measured the major and minor axis of my own print and took the ratio of major/minor axis ratio ( I.e length over width) and got the following results:

My thumb print = 1.25
Thibo's injury = 1.28

Try it yourself.  Will be interested in your result.

The difference is the size of the imprint/injury on Thibo's skull is much bigger.  I scaled it up based on my own hand and got a hand 30cm long and 15ish wide.  Obviously if Thibo's injury was caused by the application of static pressure by squeezing then that would also explain the lack of soft riddle damage.  A high speed impact, especially with a hard blunt object you might expect some soft tissue damage.

I also measured the pad of my own hand at the side under the little finger to see if that was the same shape.  The shape looked very similar but was more elongated, with major/minor axis ratio of 1.75. So not the same shape.

Thibo's head injury - if it happened in isolation might draw one to conclude that it could have been a fall.  And this is true.  But, the other injuries of Lyuda and Semyon are equally as astonishing in terms of the pattern and force.  A hand 30cm long impacting the ribs with a force in excess of 800kg could have caused those injuries.  It takes between 270 and 330 kg of force to break a single rib.  But to create a clean fracture line rough multiple ribs requires a single blow of very high force - beyond that which a human could deliver.  Note a human could break ribs, but the breaks would be irregular.  Have a look at them and think about it.

What is odd is the lack of any bite marks.  If the attack was animalistic in nature then there should be bite marks too - but nothing obvious.

Regards

Star man

Are these measurements for static o dynamic force? In case of the latter, the force should be divided by acceleration which gives us more "human" results.

I agree that the most common cause of the flail chest or multiple rib fracture is a sudden deceleration or impact (such as car crash) or a fall. However, it is possible it is possible to "achieve" the same result with CPR / cardio-pulmonary resuscitation by applying repetitive pressure so the bone "wears out" until it breaks. Most of the cases include older patients of people with thinner bones like females or children or with lower mineral content of the bone tissue. We do not have enough forensic data from the victims so cannot calculate the exact force needed to break specific bones, I can only provide the examples of the documented cases and none of them include other than human involvement or one of the most common causes already mentioned.

As for the shape of the injuries, yes it fits the shape of a rather enlarged areas of the hand you described and I see nothing wrong at all to explore that option (among others). But do you think if there was a fight, no matter if between humans and/or apes, that would be the kind of area that does the most damage upon impact? I mean there are better ways to do do it such as punching, hitting with a knee or elbow, the ape would probably bite. I am not an expert on that, I would be happy to hear an opinion of somebody who knows how the chimpanzees or related species fight.

Am I wrong or Tibo was wearing two hats at the time of death? That would prevent the bruises for some time and spread the force a little so the area of impact would appear larger than it really was. Also the cold would suppress the creation of a bruise. There can be hardly any bruise in case a smooth-surface weapon, such as baseball bat, is used on the area of head covered by winter hat.

https://dergipark.org.tr/download/article-file/733978

Fractures of ribs 3, 4, 5, 6 caused only by CPR which is hardly 800kg of force, doctors and nurses do it every day and they are no bodybuilders or Anthony Joshuas: http://jtd.amegroups.com/article/viewFile/26057/pdf

The forces are just those required to cause the fractures.  They could be generated by either static or dynamic processes.  High static force is more difficult to generate than high dynamic force. So for instance the 500 kg force produced by a boxers punch is dynamic force.  I doubt a boxer could generate 500 kg of static force.  Hope that makes sense? 

For the flail chest injuries I am not familiar with CPR examples.  Lyuda and Semyon were young and fit though so are there examples of the same injuries for young fit people?  The other question I have on this is can CPR or repative application of force create the double fracture lines?  I'm not an expert on the medical side.

The shape of Thibo's skull fracture is interesting though.  I suppose it could just be a coincidence but there aren't many data points to compare things with.

I think the key question in terms of this discussion is whether what happened was a result of humans or some kind of ape or ape like creature - dare I say the legendary Yeti?  I think the overall context of the events is just as important as the specific clues.

What are the indicators that they were attacked by humans vs some other odd creature in terms of:

The tent
The slope
The cedar
The ravine


Regards

Star man
Regards

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 03, 2019, 10:40:18 AM

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.


Just another observation relevant to the above post:

Zina long bruise.  29 cm long or about 12 inches.  Coincidence?

Regards
Star man

I think it's highly plausible that the same 'weapon' inflicted the injuries to the people in the same area. However, it is hard to determine what that was from evidence we have. In case of Tibo, the cap probably prevented soft tissue damage and even on other bodies we cannot see the hemorrhage developed properly due to cold conditions.

Just from observation, I think it would be much easier to inflict that kind of damage by foot (especially the rib fractures) rather than hands. Seems too inefficient to do that with hands as long as easier way exists.

And yet the original Investigation suggests injuries likened to a CAR CRASH. Hardly the work of someones foot then.

That is an example, not a conclusion. Not to mention there is no data such as speed, mechanism of impact or anything.

Well exactly. Its not a conclusion because the Authorities intimate that the Dyatlov Group were overcome by an unknown force. So it that respect its any ones  guess.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 03, 2019, 10:44:37 AM


One injury was due to a KNEE. The other was due to an old injury made worse by the blow to the head with a FIST. Nothing about Heads being crushed by Human HANDS  !  ?

In other words it is possible under specific circumstances. "Bare hands" narrative is irrelevant as there are simple ways to do it otherwise /knee, elbow, tactical gloves, blunt object etc. which means a (powerful enough) human can cause a skull fracture and no entities of questionable existence are needed to explain the injuries at all.

PS. Fist=bare hands, no difference there

The injuries to Dubinina's Chest Ribs are highly unlikely to have been caused by another Human. And its highly unlikely that other injuries were caused by another Human.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 03, 2019, 10:51:23 AM
Re Starman ; I think the key question in terms of this discussion is whether what happened was a result of humans or some kind of ape or ape like creature - dare I say the legendary Yeti?  I think the overall context of the events is just as important as the specific clues.

What are the indicators that they were attacked by humans vs some other odd creature in terms of:

The tent
The slope
The cedar
The ravine


Regards

Star man
Regards

Yes exactly. We have to take all the separate PARTS that make up the one big EVENT. The big EVENT being that the Dyatlov Group died under very mysterious circumstances     by an overwhelming and unknown force.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 05, 2019, 05:14:11 PM
Have recently been reading the  Potyazhenko interview.  Was interested in one of the described radiograms which said that particular attention should be given to the foot prints on the pass.  So where is all the evidence?  There are photographs in the case files but for something that was specifically requetsed to be "particularly important" I would expect more photographs?  Close up shots of the prints? There are witness testimonies too but these are not really of great forensic value.  Where are the measurements of foot sizes so that they can be compared with "known" foot sizes of the Dyatlov group?  The witness statements describe the prints crossing patches of deep snow and then disappearing over rocky stretches thn reappearing again.  Are there any more photographs of the foot prints?

As a side note I have made a few checks on the hands of gorillas.  The reference I found measured the tip of the middle finger to the base of the palm of the hand as 30cm.  They do have very big hands.  This means that Gorillas meet the criteria for the injuries in terms of power and hand size.  Obviously it doesn't rule out the legendary Yeti.  Just means that the Yeti has some competition.

Another side note:  walked past someone on the street today - "human". Although he would have passed for a Yeti.  He was approaching 8 foot tall and had hands the size of shovels.  His foot prints would certainly be mistaken for "big foot".

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 09, 2019, 05:15:18 PM
Just a thought on whether the injuries of the rav 4 could have been inflicted by other humans.  I agree with the autopsy reports that the forces required to inflict those injuries are beyond any human, but even so was thinking about the way the bodies were layer out close together with Kolevatov embracing Semyon.  At face value, it would appear that Kolevatov being the least injured arranged his friends in this way.  If he was the last one of them to die as indicated by his embrace why would any human attackers not finish him off in the same way?  Maybe he was hiding?  Just seems unlikely any human attackers would have missed him and not killed him. 

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 10, 2019, 11:48:16 AM
Have recently been reading the  Potyazhenko interview.  Was interested in one of the described radiograms which said that particular attention should be given to the foot prints on the pass.  So where is all the evidence?  There are photographs in the case files but for something that was specifically requetsed to be "particularly important" I would expect more photographs?  Close up shots of the prints? There are witness testimonies too but these are not really of great forensic value.  Where are the measurements of foot sizes so that they can be compared with "known" foot sizes of the Dyatlov group?  The witness statements describe the prints crossing patches of deep snow and then disappearing over rocky stretches thn reappearing again.  Are there any more photographs of the foot prints?

As a side note I have made a few checks on the hands of gorillas.  The reference I found measured the tip of the middle finger to the base of the palm of the hand as 30cm.  They do have very big hands.  This means that Gorillas meet the criteria for the injuries in terms of power and hand size.  Obviously it doesn't rule out the legendary Yeti.  Just means that the Yeti has some competition.

Another side note:  walked past someone on the street today - "human". Although he would have passed for a Yeti.  He was approaching 8 foot tall and had hands the size of shovels.  His foot prints would certainly be mistaken for "big foot".

Regards

Star man

Good points about FOOTPRINTS. Why no more photos of such vital evidence  !  ?  Unless of course there are more photos, but not for public consumption. After all what if someone had taken photos of extremely large un Human FOOTPRINTS.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 10, 2019, 11:53:13 AM
Just a thought on whether the injuries of the rav 4 could have been inflicted by other humans.  I agree with the autopsy reports that the forces required to inflict those injuries are beyond any human, but even so was thinking about the way the bodies were layer out close together with Kolevatov embracing Semyon.  At face value, it would appear that Kolevatov being the least injured arranged his friends in this way.  If he was the last one of them to die as indicated by his embrace why would any human attackers not finish him off in the same way?  Maybe he was hiding?  Just seems unlikely any human attackers would have missed him and not killed him. 

Regards

Star man

I also agree that Non Human Force was used. Question is what was the Force from  !  ?  Yeti ? Bear ? Alien ? Some other unknown physical Force ?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 10, 2019, 12:01:17 PM
Have recently been reading the  Potyazhenko interview.  Was interested in one of the described radiograms which said that particular attention should be given to the foot prints on the pass.  So where is all the evidence?  There are photographs in the case files but for something that was specifically requetsed to be "particularly important" I would expect more photographs?  Close up shots of the prints? There are witness testimonies too but these are not really of great forensic value.  Where are the measurements of foot sizes so that they can be compared with "known" foot sizes of the Dyatlov group?  The witness statements describe the prints crossing patches of deep snow and then disappearing over rocky stretches thn reappearing again.  Are there any more photographs of the foot prints?

As a side note I have made a few checks on the hands of gorillas.  The reference I found measured the tip of the middle finger to the base of the palm of the hand as 30cm.  They do have very big hands.  This means that Gorillas meet the criteria for the injuries in terms of power and hand size.  Obviously it doesn't rule out the legendary Yeti.  Just means that the Yeti has some competition.

Another side note:  walked past someone on the street today - "human". Although he would have passed for a Yeti.  He was approaching 8 foot tall and had hands the size of shovels.  His foot prints would certainly be mistaken for "big foot".

Regards

Star man

Good points about FOOTPRINTS. Why no more photos of such vital evidence  !  ?  Unless of course there are more photos, but not for public consumption. After all what if someone had taken photos of extremely large un Human FOOTPRINTS.

It doesn't make sense that given specific instructions to focus on the prints that there is so little in the case files?  Why would anyone exclude the details of the prints?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 10, 2019, 12:02:52 PM
Just a thought on whether the injuries of the rav 4 could have been inflicted by other humans.  I agree with the autopsy reports that the forces required to inflict those injuries are beyond any human, but even so was thinking about the way the bodies were layer out close together with Kolevatov embracing Semyon.  At face value, it would appear that Kolevatov being the least injured arranged his friends in this way.  If he was the last one of them to die as indicated by his embrace why would any human attackers not finish him off in the same way?  Maybe he was hiding?  Just seems unlikely any human attackers would have missed him and not killed him. 

Regards

Star man



I also agree that Non Human Force was used. Question is what was the Force from  !  ?  Yeti ? Bear ? Alien ? Some other unknown physical Force ?

Extremely unlikely to have been a bear given no bite marks or claw marks on victims. The others are still an option.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 10, 2019, 05:41:27 PM
As strange as it may seem (even to myself) there appears to be a Pattern of events supported by some of the finer details that suggests that the group may have been attacked by a large powerful ape like creature.  The only known species of ape powerful enough to inflict the injuries (as far as I can tell) is a Gorilla.  But if it was a Gorilla then what was it doing on Kholat Syakhl in the middle of the winter?  The other possibility is some unknown creature.

The tent

I think there is clear evidence of panic at the tent.  The scene is chaotic, disorganised.  Students flee without proper outdoor clothing and most without footwear.  There are cuts in the tent made from inside with a knife?  There is a jacket and sneakers left several meters from the tent as if someone grabbed them during their escape only to drop them again shortly afterwards.  There is Kolevatov's knife sheath outside the tent, while his knife is found inside the tent.  Semyon wears a camera around his neck when he leaves the tent, as if something has caught his interest and that something is worthy of a photograph.  Let's not forget the "evening "otorton". Was it planted or does it reflect that one or more of the group had seen something that may have been a Yeti?

The pattern of events at the tent does not lend itself to human involvement.  The students leave in a disorganised way.  Some have boots, some do not, some carry knives which they later use, as well as a flashlight and matches.  Some are better dressed than others.  Nothing is taken from the tent, not even money.  There are no obvious foot prints of any other humans there.  If they had been forced from the tent and sent to their deaths it is unlikely that they would be allowed to leave with knives, flash lights, matches, cameras etc.  it is far more likely that there was something that terrified the students and presented an immediate threat to their lives.  Hence the level of chaos and disarray at the scene.

The slope

The foot prints by all accounts show an orderly decent of the slope.  But why would a group of students leave a tent in a state of panic and then calmly walk down the slop?  Well, if you presented with the threat of a dangerous creature be it a large ape or a Yeti running away is not a sensible thing to do as this would trigger a response in the creature to attack.  Far better to calmly walk away watching your back keeping your head low and trying not to make direct eye contact.  And by the way apes have similar bare foot prints to humans, but also tent to knuckle walk unless it was a bipedal Yeti?  On the slope there is evidence that they were attacked - the dropped flashlight which was important enough to take with them but not important enough to pick up again after it was dropped?  As far as I am aware the flash light was found to be working later during the investigation.  I suspect that during these attacks the students fought off their attacker(s), hence the evidence of brawling, punching and kicking maybe to keep their attacker at distance.  It is possible that they also split up before they got to the cedar, maybe scattered by the attacker or a deliberate act to prevent the attacker being able to follow all of them together.  There is not a lot of evidence either way on this though I think.  Rustem may have been severely beaten by the attacker on the slop.  His head injury coupled with the fact that he had diffuse bleeding in both temporal muscles suggest that he took a powerful blow to the head while he was on the ground.  The blow knocked his head to the ground thus he received injuries on opposite sides of the temporal bone, but more severely on the left I believe.  He obviously fought off the attacker as best he could.

The cedar

The two Yuris climbed the cedar, possibly there were others but Yuris D climbed the cedar even though his fingers and toes were frost bitten.  I believe he did this to evade the attacker(s).  If the tree was climbed simply to collect fire wood then others better dressed and with no frost bite (even Yuris K)  could have climbed the tree to collect fire wood.  The skin embedded in the bark of the tree suggests that they did not just climb the tree they scrambled up the tree for safety.  The case files suggest that branches were cleared to make a look out and these branches were not used for the fire.  By the time the fire was lit the two Yuris who were poorly dressed had probably already lost too much body heat and died of hypothermia.  if any of the skin was collected from the tree bark then it may be possible even today to undertake DNA analysis of this to determine who was on the tree.  The removal of the clothing from the Yuris is evidence of a logical and normal will to survive, but the use of the clothing ( not all for insulating their bodies) and the unzipped jackets etc suggests that the cold was not the only major threat or concern. 

The ravine

The main consideration at the ravine are the injuries of the rav 4 and in particular Thibo, Lyuda and Semyon.  Kolevatov who was less seriously injured (apart from his deformed neck?) appears to have been the last one alive, judging by his embrace of Kolevatov.  He probably arranged the injured students lying them beside each other before he himself died of hypothermia.  It strange that if humans had been involved they would leave Kolevatov to live after killing the others?  There violent deaths on the face of it don't seem to be logical. They appear more like random violent attacks which is more consistent with some wild creature that is not looking to particularly kill everyone.  The attacks are more akin to a large ape affirming its dominance and territory.

The injuries themselves are the most interesting.

Thibo's skull injury just happens to be the exact same shape of the pad of the ball of thumb - a very large thumb on a hand that is 30 cm long.  The same size as a large Gorilla or ape hand.  The force required to crush a skull between the hands is over 450kg.  Very very humans are capable of that.  A crush injury using the hands would also explain the lack of any soft tissue damage.  The impact of the head from a fall or a blunt instrument would likely result in some soft tissue damage, but Thibo was wearing two hats.  Thibo had no other major injuries on his body that you might also expect from a fall.   Thibo's injury combined with both Lyuda and Semyon's are very suspicious indeed.  Lyuda flail just, with clean straight fracture lines suggest an impact of tremendous force.  Probably greater tha 800kg and most likely even in excess of that.  But also the damage to facial tissues suggest that Kyuda was dragged violently around on the ground.  The same is true for Senyon but to a slightly lesser extent.  It is extremely unlikely that Thibo, Lyuda and Semyon all fell at the same time sustaining their injuries with no other injuries to handls, wrists, ankles or limbs as these are common injuries when people fall and attempt to break their fall with hands and legs as they hit the ground.  What are the odds of them all falling together and none of them sustaining any injuries to limbs?  Also, if humans had been involved how did they deliver such massive blows which are clearly beyond human capability.  And if therer were humans there why would they use primitive methods to kill them.  No stab wounds, no gun shots etc?

An ape or ape like creature on the hand has a clear pattern to their aggression.  When they attack they knock their foes to the ground, drag them around violently and beat them with powerful blows to the body.  This is exactly what we see with these injuries.  The only thing that is missing however are ape type bite marks.  Apes do bite, but not always.

Rustems head injury and scratches to the forehead are also consistent with this type of attack, but again not as severe.  Maybe he was able to fend off the attack to some extent.

I he thus kind of summarises my thoughts on this theory so far.

Regards

Star man


Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 11, 2019, 06:24:00 AM
There is ample argument against the idea they cut the tent in a panic to begin with. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 12, 2019, 09:13:12 AM
There is ample argument against the idea they cut the tent in a panic to begin with.

I think there are other arguments but again the question is around context and whether those other arguments can provide the single common denominator that links all the other events together in a logical and convincing way?  The potential presence of a large ape or ape like creature I believe does this.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 12, 2019, 10:18:20 AM
I think in order to blame the incident on Yeti, you first have to prove Yeti exists.   

Otherwise it doesn't hold any more water then the tooth fairy theory.   If someone were to drag a dead Yeti out of the Brake, I would consider the possibility much more seriously. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 12, 2019, 11:46:43 AM
Maybe this?    whacky1

https://youtu.be/G03bNA-gpXE
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 12, 2019, 12:01:45 PM
I think in order to blame the incident on Yeti, you first have to prove Yeti exists.   

Otherwise it doesn't hold any more water then the tooth fairy theory.   If someone were to drag a dead Yeti out of the Brake, I would consider the possibility much more seriously.

We dont know if the HIGGS BOSON exists. All we have is TRACE EVIDENCE of a PARTICLE that comes into existence and leaves existence all within a fraction of a second. And there have been many SIGHTINGS of YETI like creatures over Time.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 12, 2019, 12:02:05 PM
I think in order to blame the incident on Yeti, you first have to prove Yeti exists.   

Otherwise it doesn't hold any more water then the tooth fairy theory.   If someone were to drag a dead Yeti out of the Brake, I would consider the possibility much more seriously.

I agree that proving it was a Yeti would be a difficult challenge indeed.  At the moment I am concentrating on the idea of large ape or ape like creature.  Saying that I will keep looking to see if there could be any objective evidence.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 12, 2019, 12:09:57 PM
I think in order to blame the incident on Yeti, you first have to prove Yeti exists.   

Otherwise it doesn't hold any more water then the tooth fairy theory.   If someone were to drag a dead Yeti out of the Brake, I would consider the possibility much more seriously.

We dont know if the HIGGS BOSON exists. All we have is TRACE EVIDENCE of a PARTICLE that comes into existence and leaves existence all within a fraction of a second. And there have been many SIGHTINGS of YETI like creatures over Time.

Very true.  And science is full of examples where people have fluffed it up.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 12, 2019, 12:30:01 PM
I think in order to blame the incident on Yeti, you first have to prove Yeti exists.   

Otherwise it doesn't hold any more water then the tooth fairy theory.   If someone were to drag a dead Yeti out of the Brake, I would consider the possibility much more seriously.

We dont know if the HIGGS BOSON exists. All we have is TRACE EVIDENCE of a PARTICLE that comes into existence and leaves existence all within a fraction of a second. And there have been many SIGHTINGS of YETI like creatures over Time.

No...  That's comparing apples to oranges and the orange is simply a 'wag' on what they 'think' is happening. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 12, 2019, 11:44:28 PM
The Evening Otorten - an important clue . Why make reference to a Yeti?  It’s actually very suspicious given the events that followed?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 13, 2019, 04:23:26 AM
How could Thibo have sustained his skull fracture with no other significant injuries and no damage to the soft tissue around the temporal region?

Fall- unlikely
Blunt instrument-unlikely
Explosion- unlikely

Skull crushed Either between two large powerful hands or between one large powerful hand and the ground-  this is what the injuries more closely resembles.

Regards
Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 13, 2019, 04:27:12 AM
Another question about Thibo - why was he wearing two watches? 

Was the time important to him for some reason?

Did he have two watches to ensure they were both synchronised?  So that he did not get the time wrong for some important event?

Did he just like watches?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 13, 2019, 02:48:36 PM
I think in order to blame the incident on Yeti, you first have to prove Yeti exists.   

Otherwise it doesn't hold any more water then the tooth fairy theory.   If someone were to drag a dead Yeti out of the Brake, I would consider the possibility much more seriously.

We dont know if the HIGGS BOSON exists. All we have is TRACE EVIDENCE of a PARTICLE that comes into existence and leaves existence all within a fraction of a second. And there have been many SIGHTINGS of YETI like creatures over Time.

No...  That's comparing apples to oranges and the orange is simply a 'wag' on what they 'think' is happening.

Not really. After all everything is made up of MATTER. The question then becomes; What is Matter  ?  What makes an Apple different from an Orange ? Therefore when Scientists claim to see Evidence for the existence of an Higgs Boson they can be no more certain than when people see Evidence for the existence of a Yeti like Creature, by a SIGHTING.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 13, 2019, 02:51:51 PM
The Evening Otorten - an important clue . Why make reference to a Yeti?  It’s actually very suspicious given the events that followed?

Regards
Star man

And now with the revelation that a WITNESS saw the Newspaper fixed in a PROMINENT position in the Tent and appearing to have been HASTILY written, it becomes even more suspicious.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 13, 2019, 05:37:36 PM
That's what's wrong with scientists.....  They make crap up to explain what they don't understand.   tongue2
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 13, 2019, 11:45:10 PM
The Evening Otorten is also described in Maslennikov’s note book with descriptions of the entries.  Given that their injuries are consistent with some kind of large ape like creature can it just be a coincidence?  Is it possible that some of the entries were written in humour and the snow man written in haste to leave a record if they didn’t make it?  Maybe.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 14, 2019, 11:36:23 AM
The Evening Otorten is also described in Maslennikov’s note book with descriptions of the entries.  Given that their injuries are consistent with some kind of large ape like creature can it just be a coincidence?  Is it possible that some of the entries were written in humour and the snow man written in haste to leave a record if they didn’t make it?  Maybe.

Regards
Star man

Well unless we have the original paperwork we can not know. Or unless we have other Evidence, maybe another Witness or a Photo of the original paperwork.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 14, 2019, 11:39:53 AM
That's what's wrong with scientists.....  They make crap up to explain what they don't understand.   tongue2

Hardly applies to all Scientists. Some Scientists certainly have Galactic EGO's, which can affect their work. But most Scientists are merely doing their jobs best they can under the circumstances.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 14, 2019, 04:00:33 PM
The Evening Otorten is also described in Maslennikov’s note book with descriptions of the entries.  Given that their injuries are consistent with some kind of large ape like creature can it just be a coincidence?  Is it possible that some of the entries were written in humour and the snow man written in haste to leave a record if they didn’t make it?  Maybe.

Regards
Star man

Well unless we have the original paperwork we can not know. Or unless we have other Evidence, maybe another Witness or a Photo of the original paperwork.

I very much doubt we will ever see the original document.  Although saying that.  The Evening Otorten is an important piece of evidence irrespective of whether it was actually in the tent or later planted.  Why - because if it was in the tent then The Yeti entry is odd and probably important considering the events that followed AND if it was planted then someone who may believe that the evidence points in a particular direction is trying to plant a suggestion to try and alter that direction.  My personal view is that the document was in the tent with those comments written on it.

Another option is that the investigators after reviewing all the evidence may have thought it did point towards an attack by a large Yeti type animal, but rather than risk their reputations and become. a laughing stock, concluded their investigation with compelling unknown force and planted the Otorten in an attempt to relay their true thoughts about what happened.  It's probably unlikely though.

Regards

Star man

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 15, 2019, 01:19:35 PM
The Evening Otorten is also described in Maslennikov’s note book with descriptions of the entries.  Given that their injuries are consistent with some kind of large ape like creature can it just be a coincidence?  Is it possible that some of the entries were written in humour and the snow man written in haste to leave a record if they didn’t make it?  Maybe.

Regards
Star man

Well unless we have the original paperwork we can not know. Or unless we have other Evidence, maybe another Witness or a Photo of the original paperwork.

I very much doubt we will ever see the original document.  Although saying that.  The Evening Otorten is an important piece of evidence irrespective of whether it was actually in the tent or later planted.  Why - because if it was in the tent then The Yeti entry is odd and probably important considering the events that followed AND if it was planted then someone who may believe that the evidence points in a particular direction is trying to plant a suggestion to try and alter that direction.  My personal view is that the document was in the tent with those comments written on it.

Another option is that the investigators after reviewing all the evidence may have thought it did point towards an attack by a large Yeti type animal, but rather than risk their reputations and become. a laughing stock, concluded their investigation with compelling unknown force and planted the Otorten in an attempt to relay their true thoughts about what happened.  It's probably unlikely though.

Regards

Star man

Regards

Star man

It may be that eventually more Evidence comes to light regarding the Evening Otorten Paperwork. Meanwhile we can continue Investigating possibilities regarding the YETI Theory.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 15, 2019, 03:55:53 PM
The Evening Otorten is also described in Maslennikov’s note book with descriptions of the entries.  Given that their injuries are consistent with some kind of large ape like creature can it just be a coincidence?  Is it possible that some of the entries were written in humour and the snow man written in haste to leave a record if they didn’t make it?  Maybe.

Regards
Star man

Well unless we have the original paperwork we can not know. Or unless we have other Evidence, maybe another Witness or a Photo of the original paperwork.

I very much doubt we will ever see the original document.  Although saying that.  The Evening Otorten is an important piece of evidence irrespective of whether it was actually in the tent or later planted.  Why - because if it was in the tent then The Yeti entry is odd and probably important considering the events that followed AND if it was planted then someone who may believe that the evidence points in a particular direction is trying to plant a suggestion to try and alter that direction.  My personal view is that the document was in the tent with those comments written on it.

Another option is that the investigators after reviewing all the evidence may have thought it did point towards an attack by a large Yeti type animal, but rather than risk their reputations and become. a laughing stock, concluded their investigation with compelling unknown force and planted the Otorten in an attempt to relay their true thoughts about what happened.  It's probably unlikely though.

Regards

Star man

Regards

Star man

It may be that eventually more Evidence comes to light regarding the Evening Otorten Paperwork. Meanwhile we can continue Investigating possibilities regarding the YETI Theory.

Yeah we need to continue with the research.  It will take time though.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 15, 2019, 10:53:19 PM
Thought that this was interesting in the context of this thread.  It might have absolutely no bearing, but it might be an eye brow raiser for those who think they have their feet firmly planted on the ground.

In the early 20th century Russian scientist were experimenting with trying to hybridise apes and humans.  Breeding apes and humans to create a hybrid.  The work was authorised and funded by the government.  As far as we know it never worked.  But is there something we don't know?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Ivanovich_Ivanov

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 16, 2019, 04:53:06 AM
Just another observation on Thibo’s skull fracture:

If you orient the ball of the thumb to line up with Thibo’s depressed fracture then the Index finger lines up with the elongated fracture that runs around to the frontal bone and the base of the hand corresponds to the fracture that runs underneath through the saddle.  Try it. 

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 08:39:45 AM
Well....... could be a rock/boulder.    thanky1      Even Big rocks have sharper edges and rounded points etc.


Then again, this is the butt plate of a Mosin Nagant rifle.  The Mosin Nagant was developed in the late 1800s and was about the only rifle around through to the 1970s.  There isn't a big civilian market for firearms, because unlike the US it requires special circumstances to permit one.  The semi auto SKS was developed in the 1950s, but civilians wouldnt have them. In 1959 there would have really only been TWO rifle types walking around.  The Mosin Nagant, and if military..... the SKS. 

Here is the Butt Plate of a Mosin Nagant.  I own plenty of both and can tell you the radius resemblance is striking... pun intended. 

(http://www.ltwerner.com/wwii/images/mosin-butt.gif)



Here is the Butt Plate of an SKS.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/7300/10615476053_9408d6fdef_b.jpg)




Then of course you have the grip butt of a Nagant pistol....  Like the rifle, it was about the only thing around for a crazy long time. 

(https://www.ai4fr.com/main/img_1209917334_16935_1393278344.jpg)

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 16, 2019, 08:42:39 AM
This a quote from the main site in relation to Thibo’s skull injury:

Vozrozhdenny, who undertook the autopsy, excluded accidental fall on the rock as a possible cause for such a massive and unusual fracture

Thibo’ fracture is decribed as “massive and unusual “. Interesting.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 16, 2019, 08:53:32 AM
Well....... could be a rock/boulder.    thanky1      Even Big rocks have sharper edges and rounded points etc.


Then again, this is the butt plate of a Mosin Nagant rifle.  The Mosin Nagant was developed in the late 1800s and was about the only rifle around through to the 1970s.  There isn't a big civilian market for firearms, because unlike the US it requires special circumstances to permit one.  The semi auto SKS was developed in the 1950s, but civilians wouldnt have them. In 1959 there would have really only been TWO rifle types walking around.  The Mosin Nagant, and if military..... the SKS. 

Here is the Butt Plate of a Mosin Nagant.  I own plenty of both and can tell you the radius resemblance is striking... pun intended. 

(http://www.ltwerner.com/wwii/images/mosin-butt.gif)



Here is the Butt Plate of an SKS.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/7300/10615476053_9408d6fdef_b.jpg)




Then of course you have the grip butt of a Nagant pistol....  Like the rifle, it was about the only thing around for a crazy long time. 

(https://www.ai4fr.com/main/img_1209917334_16935_1393278344.jpg)

I thought about the rifle butt as a possible explanation.  It’s not the same shape though.  If it hit his head at an angle the bottom of the injury should be flatter and one part of the injury would be much deeper than the other. 

Out of interest measure the width of the butt and then divide 9cm by the width to see what result you get and let me know.  That might be interesting.

One other thing- the fracture that runs from the depression is near the top.  If a gun butt was used then the maximum force applied would be at the bottom of Thibo’s injury and the shape should be flatter.

Good idea though.  Let us know the length/width ratio.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 08:55:13 AM
Case closed?

How much are you willing to rely on one persons opinion that quite possibly had little to no experience with this type of injury.   nea1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 09:01:02 AM
Quote
I thought about the rifle butt as a possible explanation.  It’s not the same shape though.  If it hit his head at an angle the bottom of the injury should be flatter and one part of the injury would be much deeper than the other. 

Out of interest measure the width of the butt and then divide 9cm by the width to see what result you get and let me know.  That might be interesting.

One other thing- the fracture that runs from the depression is near the top.  If a gun butt was used then the maximum force applied would be at the bottom of Thibo’s injury and the shape should be flatter.

Good idea though.  Let us know the length/width ratio.

Regards

Star man


Quote
measure the width of the butt and then divide 9cm by the width

Do what?  the butts taper to a radius.


Which gun?  I have several of all three.   wink1

Also, I would imagine alot would depend on the angle in which the strike happened.  Also, I would imagine there to be some 'give' to the skill when hit, and then some spring back from swelling etc.  I doubt the injury would resemble the object perfectly, especially if he had on a hat and or hood.   Lots of variables here.....
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 09:34:04 AM
Not sure abut the exact measurement scale, but knowing the length of these buttplates... pretty close Im sure. 


(https://i.ibb.co/d4wRSdc/ccfxgjydxj.png) (https://ibb.co/0yRxkgX)


Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 09:39:10 AM
Actually a bit big....  lemme measure and try again
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 09:47:48 AM
Ok... this should be closer to scale.  I put a line across the Plate showing where I measured from.... at that location its 38mm across.  Thats about half the main impact area.  Once centered you can see the radius has a striking resemblance to the injury. 

This is the SKS.  Civilians wouldn't have these in 1959. 


(https://i.ibb.co/XVz2dMh/ccfxgjydxj.png) (https://ibb.co/rvZ7LNC)



(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-wpb0dq6yc5/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/12315/19396/jY7w3xe6SI2WTvpQIjn5_sks__04894.1543432606.jpg?c=2)
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 10:14:30 AM
Ah.... the Marine Corps days.    wink1

"well over 550 pounds of force" 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg0CsUlisBE

 
Shatter a cheekbone.   whacky1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhz3P86d-Ko&list=PLFCC3A771CF7E0073&index=28
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 10:15:21 AM
Impact = 450 pounds.   shock1

"break ribs and damage internal organs"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB-afURlP9w&list=PLFCC3A771CF7E0073&index=6
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 16, 2019, 01:43:49 PM
Thought that this was interesting in the context of this thread.  It might have absolutely no bearing, but it might be an eye brow raiser for those who think they have their feet firmly planted on the ground.

In the early 20th century Russian scientist were experimenting with trying to hybridise apes and humans.  Breeding apes and humans to create a hybrid.  The work was authorised and funded by the government.  As far as we know it never worked.  But is there something we don't know?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Ivanovich_Ivanov

Regards

Star man

Interesting. The name IVANOV obviously a coincidence. I think there are many cases of such experimentation. The NAZIS did such work as well. No Evidence that any of it succeded though.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 16, 2019, 01:52:36 PM
Just another observation on Thibo’s skull fracture:

If you orient the ball of the thumb to line up with Thibo’s depressed fracture then the Index finger lines up with the elongated fracture that runs around to the frontal bone and the base of the hand corresponds to the fracture that runs underneath through the saddle.  Try it. 

Regards

Star man

Interesting. Obviously it wouldnt have been a Human Hand because a Human Hand would not have been powerful enough.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 16, 2019, 01:55:35 PM
This a quote from the main site in relation to Thibo’s skull injury:

Vozrozhdenny, who undertook the autopsy, excluded accidental fall on the rock as a possible cause for such a massive and unusual fracture

Thibo’ fracture is decribed as “massive and unusual “. Interesting.

Regards

Star man

Very interesting, yet there are still those who suggest a fall was responsible. I have never believed that a fall caused those injuries.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 16, 2019, 02:04:00 PM
Well....... could be a rock/boulder.    thanky1      Even Big rocks have sharper edges and rounded points etc.


Then again, this is the butt plate of a Mosin Nagant rifle.  The Mosin Nagant was developed in the late 1800s and was about the only rifle around through to the 1970s.  There isn't a big civilian market for firearms, because unlike the US it requires special circumstances to permit one.  The semi auto SKS was developed in the 1950s, but civilians wouldnt have them. In 1959 there would have really only been TWO rifle types walking around.  The Mosin Nagant, and if military..... the SKS. 

Here is the Butt Plate of a Mosin Nagant.  I own plenty of both and can tell you the radius resemblance is striking... pun intended. 

(http://www.ltwerner.com/wwii/images/mosin-butt.gif)



Here is the Butt Plate of an SKS.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/7300/10615476053_9408d6fdef_b.jpg)




Then of course you have the grip butt of a Nagant pistol....  Like the rifle, it was about the only thing around for a crazy long time. 

(https://www.ai4fr.com/main/img_1209917334_16935_1393278344.jpg)

But the Evidence suggests that the injuries were not caused by a fall on rocks or of a rock or similar hard object hitting the Skull.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 16, 2019, 02:05:16 PM
Case closed?

How much are you willing to rely on one persons opinion that quite possibly had little to no experience with this type of injury.   nea1

One persons opinion  !  ?  Evidence says otherwise.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 16, 2019, 02:09:35 PM
Ok... this should be closer to scale.  I put a line across the Plate showing where I measured from.... at that location its 38mm across.  Thats about half the main impact area.  Once centered you can see the radius has a striking resemblance to the injury. 

This is the SKS.  Civilians wouldn't have these in 1959. 


(https://i.ibb.co/XVz2dMh/ccfxgjydxj.png) (https://ibb.co/rvZ7LNC)

Being hit by one of those things would be a bit like being hit by a Rock. And therefore we would expect to see more Evidence of that on the Skull. But there was no such Evidence of that type of hit.



(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-wpb0dq6yc5/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/12315/19396/jY7w3xe6SI2WTvpQIjn5_sks__04894.1543432606.jpg?c=2)
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 16, 2019, 02:12:55 PM
Impact = 450 pounds.   shock1

"break ribs and damage internal organs"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB-afURlP9w&list=PLFCC3A771CF7E0073&index=6

The injuries to Dubinina do not appear to have been the result of someone kicking her.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 03:08:35 PM
Quote
But the Evidence suggests that the injuries were not caused by a fall on rocks or of a rock or similar hard object hitting the Skull.

Says who?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 16, 2019, 04:59:40 PM
Ok.  This is getting interesting.  Given Thibo's two hats it is impossible that the impact injury may be slightly different from whatever made it.  If it was an impact that it.

However, it seems obvious when you put the two Diagrams together above that Thibo's injury is clearly a different shape.  It's much wider, it has a rounded bottom and rounded top which is slightly more pointed, just like the top of the ball of the thumb where it joined the thumb itself.  If the gun butt hit Thibo's head at an angle then the bottom of the fracture would only see the flat part of the butt.  I can't see how it would be so rounded. 

A more likely shape would be the handle of a pistol, but the size of the injury would mean the handle would be very large 9cm x 7cm.  I don't know if there were any pistol handles that matched those proportions?  One other thing if it was a pistol handle then it would need to deliver about 450kg of force.

Also, could it just be a coincidence that  the injury identically resembles the proportions of the ball of a thumb?

I know it's weird but there it is.

Lyuda chest injuries were created by massive blows.  A single blow that cleanly fractured all the ribs on one side in a straight line.  Over 800kg of force, at least.  Individual ribs could be broken with much less force, but then there wouldn't be a straight fracture line running through all the ribs.  The ribs would be broken randomly.

Same for Semyon's ribs - the same level of force and one massive blow.  If they fell then given differences in weight you would probably expect a slightly different pattern. 

Let's consider a fall just for interest:

Thibo falls and hits his head "only" on a rock resulting in a massive injury that exactly resembles the proportions of the ball,of the thumb.

Lyuda also falls and lands on her chest "only" on a rock that causes massive damage fracturing both sides.  Only sustains minor injuries elsewhere.

Semyon also falls on his chest "only" on a rock that causes massive damage fracturing one side of his chest.  Only sustains minor injuries elsewhere.

Now let's look at a human cause:

Someone hits Thibo with a rock to his head that just happens to create a fracture with the exact proportions of a ball of the thumb.

Then they pick up 150kg to 300 kg rock and drop it on Lyuda and Semyon, but they leave Kolevatov alive.

Regards

Star man



Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 06:59:45 PM
Welp, this is the Yeti thread so debating the injuries are not from a Yeti is futile. 

Leaving thought.   Why would the skull wound not taper out into an overall larger area?  When a rock hits a windshield, does it only affect the contact point?   This is common sense stuff thats not worth arguing about.   nea1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on August 16, 2019, 08:32:17 PM
I don't find the Yeti theory plausible. Even if they were attacked by a Yeti what accounts for the missing eyeballs of the three in the  ravine? Was this caused by animals or fish? A blow to the chest enough to cause broken ribs would not cause someone's eyes to leave their eye sockets. So is it considered that the eyes were not affected by the damaging blows and by animals?

If there were a force, such as a ball lightening, electric force that broke their ribs, their eye sockets would have been damaged all around the eye area i.e., burns, acid, etc.

If the conclusion is that the eyes were lost during the months long period they lay in the river is the plausible theory.

If a Yeti or even a bear attack, there should be amounts of flesh ripped and it would  be visible on most bodies. The three exposed and found first don't speak to an attack by an animal.


The possibility of elk or reindeer stampede is still possible and would incapacitate the hikers and make them leave the tent in order to assess their wounds and make plans to try and survive.

I do have a question, why in March was a Mansi member at the site? Especially knowing there would be bodies there and not all of the hikers had been found? Was he just passing by, or was he investigating on his own? I cannot think of any reason that he should  have been there knowing it was a devastating event. I wonder about this. If the Mansi are telling hikers not to go there, what was he doing there?

The foot prints don't give too much detail and the site was not secured.

If the Dyatlov Pass investigation team were to monitor the site during the winter with cameras like the hunters use might give up the details. Some type of sonic monitoring for electrical activity and sound wave monitoring should give info about the site being a place of supernatural events. Geiger counter monitoring for a few months.

I have to go back to the 1993 incident where the hikers died in August and during the day, the first one became ill, bled from his nose and died. Then another hiker began banging her head on rocks. Even though it did not happen in the same spot, it was definitely some kind of supernatural event either electric, sound, breathing poison gases, etc., that caused that melee. it was described quite well by the person who survived. So this tells me no Yeti, no bear, no elk, no military, no poison eaten, perehaps poison gases exposure.

Keep up the fight. Jarrfan


Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 17, 2019, 02:15:36 AM
Welp, this is the Yeti thread so debating the injuries are not from a Yeti is futile. 

Leaving thought.   Why would the skull wound not taper out into an overall larger area?  When a rock hits a windshield, does it only affect the contact point?   This is common sense stuff thats not worth arguing about.   nea1

So the point of talking about the injuries in terms of them not being made by a yeti is show/demonstrate the unlikely conditions that would be required for the injuries to have been caused by either an accident or human intervention.

I don't know about the likelihood of the injuries tapering wrt impacts on a skull.  I suppose it must be possible for some tapering, but the outline of the injury as shown in the diagram is very distinct.

Naturally I wouldn't expect anyone to be totally convinced by the information presented that it was a Yeti instead of an accident or human attack.

The point that should be more clear is that there is something very odd about these injuries when considering them all together.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 17, 2019, 02:25:00 AM
I don't find the Yeti theory plausible. Even if they were attacked by a Yeti what accounts for the missing eyeballs of the three in the  ravine? Was this caused by animals or fish? A blow to the chest enough to cause broken ribs would not cause someone's eyes to leave their eye sockets. So is it considered that the eyes were not affected by the damaging blows and by animals?

If there were a force, such as a ball lightening, electric force that broke their ribs, their eye sockets would have been damaged all around the eye area i.e., burns, acid, etc.

If the conclusion is that the eyes were lost during the months long period they lay in the river is the plausible theory.

If a Yeti or even a bear attack, there should be amounts of flesh ripped and it would  be visible on most bodies. The three exposed and found first don't speak to an attack by an animal.


The possibility of elk or reindeer stampede is still possible and would incapacitate the hikers and make them leave the tent in order to assess their wounds and make plans to try and survive.

I do have a question, why in March was a Mansi member at the site? Especially knowing there would be bodies there and not all of the hikers had been found? Was he just passing by, or was he investigating on his own? I cannot think of any reason that he should  have been there knowing it was a devastating event. I wonder about this. If the Mansi are telling hikers not to go there, what was he doing there?

The foot prints don't give too much detail and the site was not secured.

If the Dyatlov Pass investigation team were to monitor the site during the winter with cameras like the hunters use might give up the details. Some type of sonic monitoring for electrical activity and sound wave monitoring should give info about the site being a place of supernatural events. Geiger counter monitoring for a few months.

I have to go back to the 1993 incident where the hikers died in August and during the day, the first one became ill, bled from his nose and died. Then another hiker began banging her head on rocks. Even though it did not happen in the same spot, it was definitely some kind of supernatural event either electric, sound, breathing poison gases, etc., that caused that melee. it was described quite well by the person who survived. So this tells me no Yeti, no bear, no elk, no military, no poison eaten, perehaps poison gases exposure.

Keep up the fight. Jarrfan

You make an interesting point about the eyes and facial injuries.  Let's add some further info to these:

When apes attack they often attack the body and the face.  Mutilating the face is actually quite common in normal ape attacks.  Who knows what a Yeti would do?

But ask yourself this - the two people who have the worst facial injuries and missing eyes are also the two who have the worst chest injuries, consistent with them having being mauled to the worst extent.  It is actually a shame that they were Ian stream bed because if they were not then it would me more clear that there is something odd about the facial injuries.  Lyuda's face is the worst - missing tissue around lips, skull, smashed nose cartilage, missing eyes and tongue.  En there is Semyon missing eyes, tissue missing around eye brows large laceration around the back of the head.  In known ape attacks it is quite common for the ape to drag the victim around.

So, I don't think that the eyes would pop out due to the blows.  The attack on the face would be specific.

One other thing if an ape like creature was attacking one of the group, then I doubt the others would just stand by and watch, they attack it too, punching kicking etc.  they did have a knife which was never found.  An attack with a knife would interrupt the ape attack, and make it less severe.  Also it might eventually drive it away.  So if Koleveatov had the knife, he might have stabbed it several times and eventually drove it away.  The knife may have been le in the beast.  Hence it was never found.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 17, 2019, 05:17:36 AM
Welp...  All you have to do is produce a Yeti.  A big animal with a thumb like that would consume a late of food, and it has to reproduce.  Should be easy.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: cennetkusu on August 17, 2019, 09:03:04 AM
Yeti can exist in the world. This is possible. But as far as I know, he has never had any attacks on people. And there's no reason to attack. Yeti could not have attacked young people, even if they were close to them. I mean, I think he was somewhere close by. And it seemed as if he had predicted what was going to happen in the photo. So if Yeti has no extraordinary power, Yeti cannot be responsible for these deaths
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on August 17, 2019, 09:28:09 AM
This is the sad story of Charlotte Nash whose face was destroyed, eyes ripped out, so even though this was a chimp and not an ape, they are in the same line. He bit off both of her  hands.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/victim-chimp-attack-shows-destroyed-face-oprah/story?id=9053544

I cannot say if this proves or disproves a Yeti was involved.

Regards. Jarrfan
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 17, 2019, 10:48:00 AM
The only one that was bitten was Yuri, and he did it to himself.   wink1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 17, 2019, 12:08:19 PM
Quote
But the Evidence suggests that the injuries were not caused by a fall on rocks or of a rock or similar hard object hitting the Skull.

Says who?

Well there is stuff in The Dyatlov Pass Website. We have the Autopsy stuff.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 17, 2019, 12:15:53 PM
Welp, this is the Yeti thread so debating the injuries are not from a Yeti is futile. 

Leaving thought.   Why would the skull wound not taper out into an overall larger area?  When a rock hits a windshield, does it only affect the contact point?   This is common sense stuff thats not worth arguing about.   nea1

So the point of talking about the injuries in terms of them not being made by a yeti is show/demonstrate the unlikely conditions that would be required for the injuries to have been caused by either an accident or human intervention.

I don't know about the likelihood of the injuries tapering wrt impacts on a skull.  I suppose it must be possible for some tapering, but the outline of the injury as shown in the diagram is very distinct.

Naturally I wouldn't expect anyone to be totally convinced by the information presented that it was a Yeti instead of an accident or human attack.

The point that should be more clear is that there is something very odd about these injuries when considering them all together.

Regards

Star man

Well said and well said about your analysis re the Head injury. You have basically laid a fairly clear path towards it not being the result of another Human or even Rock Fall or Hit by a Rock. Along with the Autopsy Findings etc we may be looking at some kind of completely Unknown Quantity. So that brings the YETI THEORY nicely into the Equation, or Equations.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 17, 2019, 12:22:59 PM
Welp...  All you have to do is produce a Yeti.  A big animal with a thumb like that would consume a late of food, and it has to reproduce.  Should be easy.

Well thats assuming that the hypothetical YETI is an animal that eats and breeds like Apes or Humans.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 17, 2019, 12:24:50 PM
Welp...  All you have to do is produce a Yeti.  A big animal with a thumb like that would consume a late of food, and it has to reproduce.  Should be easy.

Yeaaaaaeeehh!!!!!  Will have to work on that one but you're right.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 17, 2019, 12:27:24 PM
This is the sad story of Charlotte Nash whose face was destroyed, eyes ripped out, so even though this was a chimp and not an ape, they are in the same line. He bit off both of her  hands.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/victim-chimp-attack-shows-destroyed-face-oprah/story?id=9053544

I cannot say if this proves or disproves a Yeti was involved.

Regards. Jarrfan

Yes this was a very severe attack.  I think the chimp was not stopped for some time so the injuries are even more severe.  But you can see the type and pattern of an ape attack. 

There are not many example of ape human attacks documented.  Apes are normally peaceful creatures, especially gorillas.  But interesting none the less.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 17, 2019, 12:32:01 PM
Welp, this is the Yeti thread so debating the injuries are not from a Yeti is futile. 

Leaving thought.   Why would the skull wound not taper out into an overall larger area?  When a rock hits a windshield, does it only affect the contact point?   This is common sense stuff thats not worth arguing about.   nea1

So the point of talking about the injuries in terms of them not being made by a yeti is show/demonstrate the unlikely conditions that would be required for the injuries to have been caused by either an accident or human intervention.

I don't know about the likelihood of the injuries tapering wrt impacts on a skull.  I suppose it must be possible for some tapering, but the outline of the injury as shown in the diagram is very distinct.

Naturally I wouldn't expect anyone to be totally convinced by the information presented that it was a Yeti instead of an accident or human attack.

The point that should be more clear is that there is something very odd about these injuries when considering them all together.

Regards

Star man

Well said and well said about your analysis re the Head injury. You have basically laid a fairly clear path towards it not being the result of another Human or even Rock Fall or Hit by a Rock. Along with the Autopsy Findings etc we may be looking at some kind of completely Unknown Quantity. So that brings the YETI THEORY nicely into the Equation, or Equations.

Yeah I think the pattern of events points to some kind of large ape involvement.  But what sort of ape and why would it be there on Kholat Syakhl in the middle of winter.  A Yeti in its natural habitat or something else?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 17, 2019, 12:35:06 PM
The only one that was bitten was Yuri, and he did it to himself.   wink1

Why aren't there any bite marks.  Good question

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 17, 2019, 03:53:44 PM
Welp, this is the Yeti thread so debating the injuries are not from a Yeti is futile. 

Leaving thought.   Why would the skull wound not taper out into an overall larger area?  When a rock hits a windshield, does it only affect the contact point?   This is common sense stuff thats not worth arguing about.   nea1

So the point of talking about the injuries in terms of them not being made by a yeti is show/demonstrate the unlikely conditions that would be required for the injuries to have been caused by either an accident or human intervention.

I don't know about the likelihood of the injuries tapering wrt impacts on a skull.  I suppose it must be possible for some tapering, but the outline of the injury as shown in the diagram is very distinct.

Naturally I wouldn't expect anyone to be totally convinced by the information presented that it was a Yeti instead of an accident or human attack.

The point that should be more clear is that there is something very odd about these injuries when considering them all together.

Regards

Star man

Well said and well said about your analysis re the Head injury. You have basically laid a fairly clear path towards it not being the result of another Human or even Rock Fall or Hit by a Rock. Along with the Autopsy Findings etc we may be looking at some kind of completely Unknown Quantity. So that brings the YETI THEORY nicely into the Equation, or Equations.

Yeti thumb shaped injury brings Bigfoot to the forefront of all theories as THE undisputable explanation of the DP incident.     

What a headline, and what a claim.   bang1

Definitive claims based on bias and total disregard for common sense, reality, and facts is running a muck something fierce.   
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: cennetkusu on August 18, 2019, 02:05:19 AM
Just another observation on Thibo’s skull fracture:

If you orient the ball of the thumb to line up with Thibo’s depressed fracture then the Index finger lines up with the elongated fracture that runs around to the frontal bone and the base of the hand corresponds to the fracture that runs underneath through the saddle.  Try it. 

Regards

Star man

Interesting. Obviously it wouldnt have been a Human Hand because a Human Hand would not have been powerful enough.
Why not? There are many powerful martial artists in the world. It is strong enough to break the skull with a stroke. But you can make this kick with one hand which is powerful and skillful. That's what happened to Tibo. A man of extraordinary power did not want to deal with Tibo much, took pity on him and killed him with a single shot. The others were very angry and broke his eyes and ribs in anger.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 18, 2019, 06:23:34 AM
Because it 'had' to be from the THUMB of a Yeti.    He one handedly popped his head like a grape.    whacky1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 18, 2019, 10:56:06 PM
It might be worth summarising the evidence in favour of a large ape type creature again at this point:

1. Something scary enough to drive them away from the tent without adequate clothing or equipment
2. A careful decent of the slope which would be consistent with calmly walking away from a dangerous animal
3. Dropping the flash light and not stopping to retrieve it
4. The group heads for a tall cedar and climb the tree clearing branches to look back up the slope.
5. Yuri D receives scratches bruises climbing the tree his fingers and toes are severely frost bitten.  It does  not appear that he climbed the tree to collect firewood.
6. Fragments of skin found in the tree bark
7. Yuri D and Yuris K die of hypothermia.  The fire is lit too late to save their lives.

The injuries are by far the more interesting though

Rustems head injury is inconsistent with falling and hitting your head.  His fractured skull is in the temporal region with diffuse feeding into the temporal muscle.  Falling is more likely to result in injuries to the front and back of the skull.  Rustem also had diffuse bleeding in the other temporal muscle which makes it appear that he received a blow to the head while probably lying on the ground.

Many of the group had injuries to their hands and legs consistent with punching and kicking.  It is unlikely they fighting each other but it does appear that they were attacking something.  Maybe fighting off the creature as it attacked their friends.

Thibo's head injury is identical to the shape of a thumb, but this thumb scaled up would be part of a hand that is about 30cm long and capable of delivering over 450kg of force.   The same length as the bruise on Zina's side.  Thibo has no other significant injuries.

Lyuda and Semyon have chest injuries that would require massive blows beyond that which any human could deliver.  They also have facial injuries similar to that found in ape attacks.

Kolevatov is left alive.

Dyatlov, zina die of hypothermia.  Rustem also eventually dies of hypothermia but complicated by his head injury.

One other piece of evidence which I think may also be important given the above - The Eveneing Otorten which has an entry about a Yeti.  Had one of the group seen something before the attack?

What's missing:

1.  Obviously an ape creature or Yeti
2. Foot prints
3.  Bite marks on the victims
4. The knife of the rav 4

Post edit:  oh yes the radiation- what is that all about?

Regards

Star man






Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 18, 2019, 11:34:36 PM
Just another observation on Thibo’s skull fracture:

If you orient the ball of the thumb to line up with Thibo’s depressed fracture then the Index finger lines up with the elongated fracture that runs around to the frontal bone and the base of the hand corresponds to the fracture that runs underneath through the saddle.  Try it. 

Regards

Star man

Interesting. Obviously it wouldnt have been a Human Hand because a Human Hand would not have been powerful enough.
Why not? There are many powerful martial artists in the world. It is strong enough to break the skull with a stroke. But you can make this kick with one hand which is powerful and skillful. That's what happened to Tibo. A man of extraordinary power did not want to deal with Tibo much, took pity on him and killed him with a single shot. The others were very angry and broke his eyes and ribs in anger.

Not a bad thought.  I have already considered this.  My conclusion is that the only martial artist capable of inflicting all of the injuries is the type that has very bad dubbing and can jump 50 foot up into the sky. 

But who knows when comparing the probability of a 50 foot jumping ninja with a Yeti.

Still- there was nothing in the Evening Otorten about 50 foot jumping super ninjas.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 19, 2019, 06:06:56 AM
Quote
1. Something scary enough to drive them away from the tent without adequate clothing or equipment
2. A careful decent of the slope which would be consistent with calmly walking away from a dangerous animal
3. Dropping the flash light and not stopping to retrieve it
4. The group heads for a tall cedar and climb the tree clearing branches to look back up the slope.
5. Yuri D receives scratches bruises climbing the tree his fingers and toes are severely frost bitten.  It does  not appear that he climbed the tree to collect firewood.
6. Fragments of skin found in the tree bark
7. Yuri D and Yuris K die of hypothermia.  The fire is lit too late to save their lives.


Hmmmm....   I like your enthusiasm and theories Star-Man,  but I think you may be reaching really far now.  Literally everything you list is most definitely not 'evidence' contributed to Yeti or a "large primate" dropped on the pass for some super secret experiment. 

Evidence in favor of what you propose would look more like.....

Yeti hairs
Yeti DNA
Yeti footprints
Yeti den
Yeti fingerprints
Yeti sleeping in their tent. <<. Roflmao

I think you get the idea.  Everything you list and the injuries you allocate can be contributed to.....  Anything.  It can all be an indication of goblins, trolls, mothman, and unicorn farts if you really wanna go down that road. 

Just sayin

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 19, 2019, 06:16:27 AM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.   
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 19, 2019, 08:47:26 AM
Of course.  Many of the individual pieces of evidence I have presented can be put down to a number of possible explanations.  What I have tried to do is present a picture that can be consistently pieced together and supported with some key claims that is believable or at least should raise the suspicion that some kind of large ape like creature could have been involved.

There is of course no concrete evidence yet.

I agree that what is required to complete this scenario would be exactly the sort of things you have listed LC.  The evidence currently available is unlikely to supply that. 

To progress this theory further would require new evidence.  Maybe some semi fossilised Yeti poo?  You never know there still might be some left on the pass today.

I’ll keep thinking.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 19, 2019, 09:30:21 AM
I think a Yeti theory would go a lot further it someone popped one and drug it into town. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 19, 2019, 12:06:24 PM
Welp, this is the Yeti thread so debating the injuries are not from a Yeti is futile. 

Leaving thought.   Why would the skull wound not taper out into an overall larger area?  When a rock hits a windshield, does it only affect the contact point?   This is common sense stuff thats not worth arguing about.   nea1

So the point of talking about the injuries in terms of them not being made by a yeti is show/demonstrate the unlikely conditions that would be required for the injuries to have been caused by either an accident or human intervention.

I don't know about the likelihood of the injuries tapering wrt impacts on a skull.  I suppose it must be possible for some tapering, but the outline of the injury as shown in the diagram is very distinct.

Naturally I wouldn't expect anyone to be totally convinced by the information presented that it was a Yeti instead of an accident or human attack.

The point that should be more clear is that there is something very odd about these injuries when considering them all together.

Regards

Star man

Well said and well said about your analysis re the Head injury. You have basically laid a fairly clear path towards it not being the result of another Human or even Rock Fall or Hit by a Rock. Along with the Autopsy Findings etc we may be looking at some kind of completely Unknown Quantity. So that brings the YETI THEORY nicely into the Equation, or Equations.

Yeti thumb shaped injury brings Bigfoot to the forefront of all theories as THE undisputable explanation of the DP incident.     

What a headline, and what a claim.   bang1

Definitive claims based on bias and total disregard for common sense, reality, and facts is running a muck something fierce.

I wouldnt say DEFINITIVE CLAIMS. I would say just another THEORY albeit an unusual one. But nevertheless worth looking at. All OPTIONS must be open.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 19, 2019, 12:11:45 PM
Just another observation on Thibo’s skull fracture:

If you orient the ball of the thumb to line up with Thibo’s depressed fracture then the Index finger lines up with the elongated fracture that runs around to the frontal bone and the base of the hand corresponds to the fracture that runs underneath through the saddle.  Try it. 

Regards

Star man

Interesting. Obviously it wouldnt have been a Human Hand because a Human Hand would not have been powerful enough.
Why not? There are many powerful martial artists in the world. It is strong enough to break the skull with a stroke. But you can make this kick with one hand which is powerful and skillful. That's what happened to Tibo. A man of extraordinary power did not want to deal with Tibo much, took pity on him and killed him with a single shot. The others were very angry and broke his eyes and ribs in anger.

I think we may be looking at injuries that were caused by some kind of CRUSHING as opposed to hitting. And as far as I know there is no Evidence of any Human being being able to CRUSH someones SKULL with their hand or to CRUSH someones CHEST with their hand or hands in the way that DUBININA was apparently CRUSHED.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 19, 2019, 12:17:05 PM
Quote
1. Something scary enough to drive them away from the tent without adequate clothing or equipment
2. A careful decent of the slope which would be consistent with calmly walking away from a dangerous animal
3. Dropping the flash light and not stopping to retrieve it
4. The group heads for a tall cedar and climb the tree clearing branches to look back up the slope.
5. Yuri D receives scratches bruises climbing the tree his fingers and toes are severely frost bitten.  It does  not appear that he climbed the tree to collect firewood.
6. Fragments of skin found in the tree bark
7. Yuri D and Yuris K die of hypothermia.  The fire is lit too late to save their lives.


Hmmmm....   I like your enthusiasm and theories Star-Man,  but I think you may be reaching really far now.  Literally everything you list is most definitely not 'evidence' contributed to Yeti or a "large primate" dropped on the pass for some super secret experiment. 

Evidence in favor of what you propose would look more like.....

Yeti hairs
Yeti DNA
Yeti footprints
Yeti den
Yeti fingerprints
Yeti sleeping in their tent. <<. Roflmao

I think you get the idea.  Everything you list and the injuries you allocate can be contributed to.....  Anything.  It can all be an indication of goblins, trolls, mothman, and unicorn farts if you really wanna go down that road. 

Just sayin

The same could be said of most of the THEORIES, ie, where is the real Evidence. The YETI Theory is worth looking at. Plenty of Sightings and experiences by people over the decades.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 19, 2019, 12:19:26 PM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 19, 2019, 12:19:43 PM
I guess you missed this.

https://youtu.be/RB-afURlP9w
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 19, 2019, 12:21:25 PM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 19, 2019, 11:03:37 PM
I think it's fair to say that the theory presented fits the sequence of events but like all the other theories here it is not definitive as DB states.  Again as with all other theories the thing that is missing is irrefutable forensic evidence.  For a large ape like creature or Yeti DNA would probably be required.  The remains of such an animal if ever discovered may provide this and would probably be a scientific sensation.

For the DPI it might be difficult to tease out any further evidence.

However, there are some possibilities. For instance if Kolevatov stabbed the beast and drove it away it's possible that the knife went with it.  The knife may still be there somewhere and it might even still be with the remains of the beast.  For instance the beast may have crawled off itself and died some distance from the ravine.  Finding the knife might mean finding the remains of the beast.  Or the knife may have tissue on it skin, or hair that has survIved and may be used for DNA analysis.  It's a long shot, but it's an example of how further information could come to light.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 19, 2019, 11:39:05 PM
Just another thought on evidence and where it could be found.  When the DPI happened Francis Crick had not discovered DNA so it’s unlikely that the bodies were examined for DNA evidence.  Quite often skin and hair of an attacker can be found under the finger nails. 

I would not advocate exhuming the bodies to look for such evidence though as I think they should be left to rest in peace.

If there was some kind of large ape being used in a military test that somehow managed to attack the group (note that apes were used across the world for such tests years ago) then there may be records of the movement and sales of such apes still in existence that could be traced.  Who knows.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 20, 2019, 01:17:30 PM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 20, 2019, 01:20:17 PM
Just another thought on evidence and where it could be found.  When the DPI happened Francis Crick had not discovered DNA so it’s unlikely that the bodies were examined for DNA evidence.  Quite often skin and hair of an attacker can be found under the finger nails. 

I would not advocate exhuming the bodies to look for such evidence though as I think they should be left to rest in peace.

If there was some kind of large ape being used in a military test that somehow managed to attack the group (note that apes were used across the world for such tests years ago) then there may be records of the movement and sales of such apes still in existence that could be traced.  Who knows.

Regards
Star man

Many Bodies are exhumed if there is a good reason. I have no problem with that and maybe some of the relatives would be ok with that if it helped to resolve this mystery.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 20, 2019, 04:24:26 PM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.

Sure there is....  They were found FOUR MONTHS LATER half submerged in a creek.  It does not take a rocket scientist to establish common sense.  The autopsy reports clearly state 'missing', no mention of torn flesh, cut flesh..... Nothing.  It's called decomposition..... Period.  No need for some fantastical cryptozoology or unrealistic conspiracies.   

Radiation....  Sure there is.  It was only found on very specific articles of clothing which just happen to belong to members of the group that were involved in a RADIATION CLEANUP just prior to the DP trip, and the other worked in refining it.  Again.....  Common sense no brainier.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 20, 2019, 10:52:31 PM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.

Even if the families were supportive of exhumation for further forensic examination, I think there would need to be more compelling reason that just the possibility of DNA samples under the nails.  One thing that may be interesting though is the radiation.  If the bodies clothing was removed and they were washed then any external radiation would have been at least mostly removed.  But if they had been exposed to some radiation on the pass itself then it is likely that they breathed in some of this.  So unless all of their lungs had been removed during autopsy then there will still be evidence of the radiation in the lungs, or at least the remains of the lungs.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 20, 2019, 11:38:05 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/dB9WQbR/2-DD37014-2-BDB-44-DB-A669-08-F1-CB660-C72.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

In terms of forensic evidence I think that the foot prints may be important.  Although there is a suprising lack of detail in the case files. 

I found the above photo interesting.  Although it may be nothing towards the middle right of the photo there are two large symmetrical Foot shaped dark patches in the snow.  I haven’t been able to highlight them but see if you can see them.

There is also another foot print reported as two overlapping prints that looks similar in shape to the foot of an ape.  Again it could be nothing but who knows.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 21, 2019, 08:44:22 AM
This is an ape foot for comparison with the above post.  Note the rounded shape and the big toe slightly displaced across and slightly lower than the other toes.


(https://i.ibb.co/BVYp6rP/A8376-CC1-41-D0-49-C3-97-FF-50-F2-B1-DE6-C07.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 21, 2019, 09:45:57 AM
I would imagine someone part of the search and investigation would notice drastically different footprints then a humans.   I don't see anything in that pic except human packed prints that the surrounding unpacked snow has blown away from. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 21, 2019, 01:03:15 PM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.

Sure there is....  They were found FOUR MONTHS LATER half submerged in a creek.  It does not take a rocket scientist to establish common sense.  The autopsy reports clearly state 'missing', no mention of torn flesh, cut flesh..... Nothing.  It's called decomposition..... Period.  No need for some fantastical cryptozoology or unrealistic conspiracies.   

Radiation....  Sure there is.  It was only found on very specific articles of clothing which just happen to belong to members of the group that were involved in a RADIATION CLEANUP just prior to the DP trip, and the other worked in refining it.  Again.....  Common sense no brainier.

There is no Evidence of ordinary ANIMALS having had a part in the demise and decomposition of the Dyatlov group. No SIGNS of animal activity at or near the Dead Bodies. No SIGNS of BACTERIA, etc, were reported in the Autopsy. And the Radiation reports leave much to be desired. And this radiation question crops up elsewhere in the Forum.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Morski on August 21, 2019, 02:35:30 PM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.

Sure there is....  They were found FOUR MONTHS LATER half submerged in a creek.  It does not take a rocket scientist to establish common sense.  The autopsy reports clearly state 'missing', no mention of torn flesh, cut flesh..... Nothing.  It's called decomposition..... Period.  No need for some fantastical cryptozoology or unrealistic conspiracies.   

Radiation....  Sure there is.  It was only found on very specific articles of clothing which just happen to belong to members of the group that were involved in a RADIATION CLEANUP just prior to the DP trip, and the other worked in refining it.  Again.....  Common sense no brainier.

There is no Evidence of ordinary ANIMALS having had a part in the demise and decomposition of the Dyatlov group. No SIGNS of animal activity at or near the Dead Bodies. No SIGNS of BACTERIA, etc, were reported in the Autopsy. And the Radiation reports leave much to be desired. And this radiation question crops up elsewhere in the Forum.

So, just because Vozrojdenniy did not specifically mentioned wild animals and bacteria - the most obvious natural explanation when dealing with dead bodies rotting for months in the wilderness, we can literally cross them out of the story? Well, I guess that really leaves us with only the Yeti to blame. Or the fireballs, piloted by extraterrestrial astronauts, yes?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 21, 2019, 10:51:07 PM
I would imagine someone part of the search and investigation would notice drastically different footprints then a humans.   I don't see anything in that pic except human packed prints that the surrounding unpacked snow has blown away from.

Yeah, there is definitely a lack of detail on the foot prints in the file. 

Now the Discovery channel documentary - which I Would agree is sensationalised trash for the most part does include an interview with two of the original search party.  In the interview, according to the programme they do state that they noticed strange large foot prints that were not mentioned in the case files.  Is this also sensationalised trash?  I don't know.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 21, 2019, 11:34:30 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/HXF7YZW/DF9-AD782-DBD9-42-A7-BA21-98-C9-F3-ECA8-FA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)



The above photo is quite interesting.  If you look carefully there appears to be a bare foot print on top of what seems to be a boot print. 

What is interesting though is the rounded shape of the bare foot print and the big toe is behind the other toes.  Normally a human big toe is the furthest forward but not for an ape. 

Would be interested to know what people think?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 21, 2019, 11:51:27 PM
It's a velenki print, and I don't see an ape print. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 22, 2019, 03:08:03 PM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.

Sure there is....  They were found FOUR MONTHS LATER half submerged in a creek.  It does not take a rocket scientist to establish common sense.  The autopsy reports clearly state 'missing', no mention of torn flesh, cut flesh..... Nothing.  It's called decomposition..... Period.  No need for some fantastical cryptozoology or unrealistic conspiracies.   

Radiation....  Sure there is.  It was only found on very specific articles of clothing which just happen to belong to members of the group that were involved in a RADIATION CLEANUP just prior to the DP trip, and the other worked in refining it.  Again.....  Common sense no brainier.

There is no Evidence of ordinary ANIMALS having had a part in the demise and decomposition of the Dyatlov group. No SIGNS of animal activity at or near the Dead Bodies. No SIGNS of BACTERIA, etc, were reported in the Autopsy. And the Radiation reports leave much to be desired. And this radiation question crops up elsewhere in the Forum.

So, just because Vozrojdenniy did not specifically mentioned wild animals and bacteria - the most obvious natural explanation when dealing with dead bodies rotting for months in the wilderness, we can literally cross them out of the story? Well, I guess that really leaves us with only the Yeti to blame. Or the fireballs, piloted by extraterrestrial astronauts, yes?
NO. The Autopsies were carried out by people who were aware of the unusual circumstances of this Case. IE A potential CRIME. Therefore it would be logical to assume that they would have mentioned any likely hood of animal or bacterial involvement. YES.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 22, 2019, 03:14:50 PM
I would imagine someone part of the search and investigation would notice drastically different footprints then a humans.   I don't see anything in that pic except human packed prints that the surrounding unpacked snow has blown away from.

Yeah, there is definitely a lack of detail on the foot prints in the file. 

Now the Discovery channel documentary - which I Would agree is sensationalised trash for the most part does include an interview with two of the original search party.  In the interview, according to the programme they do state that they noticed strange large foot prints that were not mentioned in the case files.  Is this also sensationalised trash?  I don't know.

Regards

Star man

Yes its a shame that that programme got a bit carried away with some parts and it certainly did become a bit sensational. I think that the interview with those 2 original searchers and what they said needs to be considered as TRUE. Why would they want to lie ?  They must have had respect and still have respect for the Dyatlov Group that met its demise in such an unusual way.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 22, 2019, 03:48:16 PM
Maybe we can write to the authorities in Russia and demand they enter it as fact in the original case files. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 22, 2019, 11:05:06 PM
I would imagine someone part of the search and investigation would notice drastically different footprints then a humans.   I don't see anything in that pic except human packed prints that the surrounding unpacked snow has blown away from.

Yeah, there is definitely a lack of detail on the foot prints in the file. 

Now the Discovery channel documentary - which I Would agree is sensationalised trash for the most part does include an interview with two of the original search party.  In the interview, according to the programme they do state that they noticed strange large foot prints that were not mentioned in the case files.  Is this also sensationalised trash?  I don't know.

Regards

Star man

Yes its a shame that that programme got a bit carried away with some parts and it certainly did become a bit sensational. I think that the interview with those 2 original searchers and what they said needs to be considered as TRUE. Why would they want to lie ?  They must have had respect and still have respect for the Dyatlov Group that met its demise in such an unusual way.

Maybe they were telling the truth but I think they would need to come forward independently as the discovery channel programme can't be considered credible?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 22, 2019, 11:11:59 PM
Maybe we can write to the authorities in Russia and demand they enter it as fact in the original case files.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

The case files are lacking in a number of areas and the foot prints are one of these areas.

In a criminal investigation surely it would be expected that the bare feet and boot prints are matched to the hikers?  There are 8 to 9 sets of tracks reported and 9 hikers.  If they found a set of tracks with a foot size that didn't match anyone in the group, or say two people with size 10 shoes and there is only 1 hiker with this foot size its a massive clue.   You get what I mean.  But there's nothing like that.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 22, 2019, 11:32:50 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/fxm95vV/1-FC1-D4-A5-8-BC7-4-E1-E-8026-3-C15-D143-B2-FD.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

The above photo should be marked up with the areas I found interesting.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Morski on August 23, 2019, 04:07:18 AM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.

Sure there is....  They were found FOUR MONTHS LATER half submerged in a creek.  It does not take a rocket scientist to establish common sense.  The autopsy reports clearly state 'missing', no mention of torn flesh, cut flesh..... Nothing.  It's called decomposition..... Period.  No need for some fantastical cryptozoology or unrealistic conspiracies.   

Radiation....  Sure there is.  It was only found on very specific articles of clothing which just happen to belong to members of the group that were involved in a RADIATION CLEANUP just prior to the DP trip, and the other worked in refining it.  Again.....  Common sense no brainier.

There is no Evidence of ordinary ANIMALS having had a part in the demise and decomposition of the Dyatlov group. No SIGNS of animal activity at or near the Dead Bodies. No SIGNS of BACTERIA, etc, were reported in the Autopsy. And the Radiation reports leave much to be desired. And this radiation question crops up elsewhere in the Forum.

So, just because Vozrojdenniy did not specifically mentioned wild animals and bacteria - the most obvious natural explanation when dealing with dead bodies rotting for months in the wilderness, we can literally cross them out of the story? Well, I guess that really leaves us with only the Yeti to blame. Or the fireballs, piloted by extraterrestrial astronauts, yes?
NO. The Autopsies were carried out by people who were aware of the unusual circumstances of this Case. IE A potential CRIME. Therefore it would be logical to assume that they would have mentioned any likely hood of animal or bacterial involvement. YES.

Logical to assume? So they should have mentioned any form of deliberate injury or "mutilation"... And we have none of that.
 
Instead, eyes and tongue are simply "missing", not ripped, nor cut. Or someone/something made them dissapear?
 
How about natural decay and animal activity which exist, instead of cryptochupacabras for who we have only legends and not even one material evidence?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 23, 2019, 11:26:38 AM
Maybe we can write to the authorities in Russia and demand they enter it as fact in the original case files.

I wouldn't hold my great on that one.

The case files are lacking in a number of areas and the foot prints are one of these areas.

In a criminal investigation surely it would be expected that the bare feet and boot prints are matched to the hikers?  There are 8 to 9 sets of tracks reported and 9 hikers.  If they found a set of tracks with a foot size that didn't match anyone in the group, or say two people with size 10 shoes and there is only 1 hiker with this foot size its a massive clue.   You get what I mean.  But there's nothing like that.

Regards

Star man

Just one of the many questions in this Dyatlov Case. Scarcity of Information and Evidence. There must surely have been the opportunity to take many photos of all the Footprints in the area. We do not appear to have that many photos  !  ?  Also there is not much written about the Footprints. Once again, surely in a potential Criminal Investigation that is just the sort of Evidence you would be looking for.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 23, 2019, 11:30:51 AM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.

Sure there is....  They were found FOUR MONTHS LATER half submerged in a creek.  It does not take a rocket scientist to establish common sense.  The autopsy reports clearly state 'missing', no mention of torn flesh, cut flesh..... Nothing.  It's called decomposition..... Period.  No need for some fantastical cryptozoology or unrealistic conspiracies.   

Radiation....  Sure there is.  It was only found on very specific articles of clothing which just happen to belong to members of the group that were involved in a RADIATION CLEANUP just prior to the DP trip, and the other worked in refining it.  Again.....  Common sense no brainier.

There is no Evidence of ordinary ANIMALS having had a part in the demise and decomposition of the Dyatlov group. No SIGNS of animal activity at or near the Dead Bodies. No SIGNS of BACTERIA, etc, were reported in the Autopsy. And the Radiation reports leave much to be desired. And this radiation question crops up elsewhere in the Forum.

So, just because Vozrojdenniy did not specifically mentioned wild animals and bacteria - the most obvious natural explanation when dealing with dead bodies rotting for months in the wilderness, we can literally cross them out of the story? Well, I guess that really leaves us with only the Yeti to blame. Or the fireballs, piloted by extraterrestrial astronauts, yes?
NO. The Autopsies were carried out by people who were aware of the unusual circumstances of this Case. IE A potential CRIME. Therefore it would be logical to assume that they would have mentioned any likely hood of animal or bacterial involvement. YES.

Logical to assume? So they should have mentioned any form of deliberate injury or "mutilation"... And we have none of that.
 
Instead, eyes and tongue are simply "missing", not ripped, nor cut. Or someone/something made them dissapear?
 
How about natural decay and animal activity which exist, instead of cryptochupacabras for who we have only legends and not even one material evidence?

Well it was a potential Criminal Investigation. We are talking about the possible Murder of 9 people. When the Authorities started searching in earnest in the area of concern they were searching with the knowledge that a Crime may have been committed.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Morski on August 23, 2019, 02:15:54 PM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.

Sure there is....  They were found FOUR MONTHS LATER half submerged in a creek.  It does not take a rocket scientist to establish common sense.  The autopsy reports clearly state 'missing', no mention of torn flesh, cut flesh..... Nothing.  It's called decomposition..... Period.  No need for some fantastical cryptozoology or unrealistic conspiracies.   

Radiation....  Sure there is.  It was only found on very specific articles of clothing which just happen to belong to members of the group that were involved in a RADIATION CLEANUP just prior to the DP trip, and the other worked in refining it.  Again.....  Common sense no brainier.

There is no Evidence of ordinary ANIMALS having had a part in the demise and decomposition of the Dyatlov group. No SIGNS of animal activity at or near the Dead Bodies. No SIGNS of BACTERIA, etc, were reported in the Autopsy. And the Radiation reports leave much to be desired. And this radiation question crops up elsewhere in the Forum.

So, just because Vozrojdenniy did not specifically mentioned wild animals and bacteria - the most obvious natural explanation when dealing with dead bodies rotting for months in the wilderness, we can literally cross them out of the story? Well, I guess that really leaves us with only the Yeti to blame. Or the fireballs, piloted by extraterrestrial astronauts, yes?
NO. The Autopsies were carried out by people who were aware of the unusual circumstances of this Case. IE A potential CRIME. Therefore it would be logical to assume that they would have mentioned any likely hood of animal or bacterial involvement. YES.

Logical to assume? So they should have mentioned any form of deliberate injury or "mutilation"... And we have none of that.
 
Instead, eyes and tongue are simply "missing", not ripped, nor cut. Or someone/something made them dissapear?
 
How about natural decay and animal activity which exist, instead of cryptochupacabras for who we have only legends and not even one material evidence?

Well it was a potential Criminal Investigation. We are talking about the possible Murder of 9 people. When the Authorities started searching in earnest in the area of concern they were searching with the knowledge that a Crime may have been committed.

The potential is there pretty much every time you have a dead body, not to mention nine, I agree.

But what does this have to do with the autopsy report not mentioning animals and bacteria? if the group died in a hotel room - fine, no rodents or predators. But the circumstances are different. In the wilderness you have animals, and whatever the environment, you have bacteria. And, I don`t think coroners should explain the very process of decomposition of the human body, especially in the specific conditions of the Pass. it is common sense. You don`t explain why you get wet during a rain storm.

They just state facts - broken bones, missing body parts, and eventually the cause of death. Relation between assumptions and facts is highly problematic. Think about Thibo`s skull. Rifle butt, fall onto a rock, or Yeti`s hand grab? I see no need to go chase the wild, while you can have the tame.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 23, 2019, 02:45:09 PM
Quote
I don`t think coroners should explain the very process of decomposition of the human body, especially in the specific conditions of the Pass. it is common sense. You don`t explain why you get wet during a rain storm.

Bingo.   okey1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 23, 2019, 04:52:44 PM
Maybe we can write to the authorities in Russia and demand they enter it as fact in the original case files.

I wouldn't hold my great on that one.

The case files are lacking in a number of areas and the foot prints are one of these areas.

In a criminal investigation surely it would be expected that the bare feet and boot prints are matched to the hikers?  There are 8 to 9 sets of tracks reported and 9 hikers.  If they found a set of tracks with a foot size that didn't match anyone in the group, or say two people with size 10 shoes and there is only 1 hiker with this foot size its a massive clue.   You get what I mean.  But there's nothing like that.

Regards

Star man

Just one of the many questions in this Dyatlov Case. Scarcity of Information and Evidence. There must surely have been the opportunity to take many photos of all the Footprints in the area. We do not appear to have that many photos  !  ?  Also there is not much written about the Footprints. Once again, surely in a potential Criminal Investigation that is just the sort of Evidence you would be looking for.

Exactly.  Very odd particularly considering the search party was asked to pay particular attention to the foot prints.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 24, 2019, 11:53:09 AM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.

Sure there is....  They were found FOUR MONTHS LATER half submerged in a creek.  It does not take a rocket scientist to establish common sense.  The autopsy reports clearly state 'missing', no mention of torn flesh, cut flesh..... Nothing.  It's called decomposition..... Period.  No need for some fantastical cryptozoology or unrealistic conspiracies.   

Radiation....  Sure there is.  It was only found on very specific articles of clothing which just happen to belong to members of the group that were involved in a RADIATION CLEANUP just prior to the DP trip, and the other worked in refining it.  Again.....  Common sense no brainier.

There is no Evidence of ordinary ANIMALS having had a part in the demise and decomposition of the Dyatlov group. No SIGNS of animal activity at or near the Dead Bodies. No SIGNS of BACTERIA, etc, were reported in the Autopsy. And the Radiation reports leave much to be desired. And this radiation question crops up elsewhere in the Forum.

So, just because Vozrojdenniy did not specifically mentioned wild animals and bacteria - the most obvious natural explanation when dealing with dead bodies rotting for months in the wilderness, we can literally cross them out of the story? Well, I guess that really leaves us with only the Yeti to blame. Or the fireballs, piloted by extraterrestrial astronauts, yes?
NO. The Autopsies were carried out by people who were aware of the unusual circumstances of this Case. IE A potential CRIME. Therefore it would be logical to assume that they would have mentioned any likely hood of animal or bacterial involvement. YES.

Logical to assume? So they should have mentioned any form of deliberate injury or "mutilation"... And we have none of that.
 
Instead, eyes and tongue are simply "missing", not ripped, nor cut. Or someone/something made them dissapear?
 
How about natural decay and animal activity which exist, instead of cryptochupacabras for who we have only legends and not even one material evidence?

Well it was a potential Criminal Investigation. We are talking about the possible Murder of 9 people. When the Authorities started searching in earnest in the area of concern they were searching with the knowledge that a Crime may have been committed.

The potential is there pretty much every time you have a dead body, not to mention nine, I agree.

But what does this have to do with the autopsy report not mentioning animals and bacteria? if the group died in a hotel room - fine, no rodents or predators. But the circumstances are different. In the wilderness you have animals, and whatever the environment, you have bacteria. And, I don`t think coroners should explain the very process of decomposition of the human body, especially in the specific conditions of the Pass. it is common sense. You don`t explain why you get wet during a rain storm.

They just state facts - broken bones, missing body parts, and eventually the cause of death. Relation between assumptions and facts is highly problematic. Think about Thibo`s skull. Rifle butt, fall onto a rock, or Yeti`s hand grab? I see no need to go chase the wild, while you can have the tame.

You seem to miss the point. And also rodents can be found in Hotels. And then you seem to contradict yourself by saying that whatever the environment you have bacteria. And then you say you dont think coroners should explain the very process of decomposition of the human body. But thats precisely what is needed in a potential Criminal Investigation, an EXPLANATION if at all possible.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 24, 2019, 12:21:53 PM
You have bacteria living in your gut, skin etc.... even in a perfectly sterile environment, they take over in death.  Fact

Wonder whats swimming around in creeks.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Morski on August 24, 2019, 02:02:27 PM
Why am I missing the point?

You say, that because Vozrojdeniy did not specifically mentioned animals and/or bacteria, there is no evidence of them being present, hence we need other explanation for the missing body parts of the decomposing for months in the wilderness bodies... Nice, what is your guess then?

I see no contradiction in my words. Ok, you may have rodents in your hotel room, but you can have bacteria everywhere. So it is absurd to eliminate their role in demaging and decomposition of the body, especially in the specific environment of the Pass.

Now, the process of decomposition and the cause of death are two separate things. Obviously, no specific relation was stated. They died because of their traumas, and they decay, because that is what happens when we die. That is probably way too obvious for a coroner, so no need to explain how and why they rot.

Dont get me wrong, but I think you are missing the point, while trying to exclude all reasonable facts, and looking for a sensational cause.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 24, 2019, 05:02:16 PM
Extract from the www:

Hyoid bone, U-shaped bone situated at the root of the tongue in the front of the neck and between the lower jaw and the largest cartilage of the larynx, or voice box. The primary function of the hyoid bone is to serve as an anchoring structure for the tongue.


In Lyuda's autopsy report the "unusual movement of the hyoid bone is mentioned".

Bacterial or rodent damage?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 24, 2019, 06:20:01 PM
Extract from the www:

Hyoid bone, U-shaped bone situated at the root of the tongue in the front of the neck and between the lower jaw and the largest cartilage of the larynx, or voice box. The primary function of the hyoid bone is to serve as an anchoring structure for the tongue.


In Lyuda's autopsy report the "unusual movement of the hyoid bone is mentioned".

Bacterial or rodent damage?

Regards

Star man

If the entire area is decomposed, is it a wonder it has movement? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 25, 2019, 01:39:03 AM
Extract from the www:

Hyoid bone, U-shaped bone situated at the root of the tongue in the front of the neck and between the lower jaw and the largest cartilage of the larynx, or voice box. The primary function of the hyoid bone is to serve as an anchoring structure for the tongue.


In Lyuda's autopsy report the "unusual movement of the hyoid bone is mentioned".

Bacterial or rodent damage?

Regards

Star man

If the entire area is decomposed, is it a wonder it has movement?

I don't know.  But it could be an important piece of evidence about the tongue.  I can certainly understand it could be damaged if it was forcefully ripped out, but I don't know enough to say if it could be loosened by decomposition.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 25, 2019, 04:23:21 AM
Just another quick thought on the hyoid bone.  The autopsy report mentions "unusual" movement of the bone.  If it is normal for the bone to loosen due to decomposition why would the autopsy describe it as "usual"

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 25, 2019, 04:31:46 AM
Just another quick thought on the hyoid bone.  The autopsy report mentions "unusual" movement of the bone.  If it is normal for the bone to loosen due to decomposition why would the autopsy describe it as "usual"

Regards

Star man

I dunno but analyzing every word from a google chosen translation......  meh
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Morski on August 25, 2019, 05:52:57 AM
Just another quick thought on the hyoid bone.  The autopsy report mentions "unusual" movement of the bone.  If it is normal for the bone to loosen due to decomposition why would the autopsy describe it as "usual"

Regards

Star man

Probably the "usual" movement is when the whole thing is still there, while "unusual" is when the muscles and tissue holding it, are not there anymore.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 25, 2019, 06:51:22 AM
Is it easier to pull a bone out of a living fish, or a 4 month dead rotten fish? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 25, 2019, 07:11:14 AM
Does it take cryptozoology or aliens to do this slippage?

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OFJrow7yaec/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 25, 2019, 07:28:00 AM
How about those eyes....  did Yeti suck out those eyeballs? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 25, 2019, 04:32:03 PM
Just another quick thought on the hyoid bone.  The autopsy report mentions "unusual" movement of the bone.  If it is normal for the bone to loosen due to decomposition why would the autopsy describe it as "usual"

Regards

Star man

I dunno but analyzing every word from a google chosen translation......  meh

That's just it.  I don't know either.  I'm just relaying what I read. 

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 25, 2019, 04:39:57 PM
I have no idea what happened to that person.  I doubt that we will conclude anything from considering what was meant in the reports by specific terms.  My interpretation is that skin slippage or tissue slippage is different from epidermis is absent.  But it depends on how specific the wording of the report was meant to be.  Terms can often be thrown around that sometimes need clarification.

Again I have no idea what happened to the above persons eyes?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 27, 2019, 04:52:30 AM
The extract below describes the sorts of injuries expected from different types of fall.  It is also documented that the type of force required to cause the flail chest injuries of Lyudmila and Semyon is the same order as a car crash or a fall from significant height.

Have a look at the extract and ask yourself whether you would expect to see additional head injuries, lower and upper extremity injuries and or spinal injuries?  Also ask yourself how you think a human might have inflicted those flail chest injuries?

This is the extract below.  Note SLF means same level fall.

Extremity skeletal injuries (ranging from 20% in SLFs [33] to 77% in high falls [9] where hip and upper extremity (UE) injuries predominate in SLFs and other lower extremity (LE) injuries are more common in high falls.

Spine injuries are very common (ranging from 13% in mixed falls [9] to 36% in high falls [4,6]. Lumbar spine injuries are completely predominating. Spine injuries are not confined to high falls, but can happen from even below 2 m [6].

Head injuries are more common in children, likely due to them having relatively larger heads, shifting the center of gravity cranially. Jumpers more often land on their feet than fallers and thus injuries to the lower extremities are more common, but the higher the fall, the greater is the chance of landing on the head. 20-45% of falls from 2-10 m resulted in head injury. Several studies have detailed reports on head injuries with ranges of 0.7-5.8% of epidural hematoma, 0.9-6.0% of subdural hematoma, 1.5-7.0% of subarachnoid hematoma and 0.4-3.7% of intracerebral hem

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 27, 2019, 05:40:43 AM
Did they slide head first down an embankment?  Can a person be dragged 50m of snow downhill from the cedar? 

yes
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 27, 2019, 08:34:45 AM
I think sliding down the embankment is another scenario that should be considered.  Given the significant flail chest injuries though and the force required to cause them I think the readers should still consider the likelihood of them receiving other injuries to head, limbs, spine etc.  I am asking people to make their own judgments.  Also to look up other reference information on falls, sliding down steep slopes.  I don’t know if any research has been done on that.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 27, 2019, 11:42:21 AM
You have bacteria living in your gut, skin etc.... even in a perfectly sterile environment, they take over in death.  Fact

Wonder whats swimming around in creeks.

There wasnt a Creek at Dyatlov Pass  or any where near, just a little Stream. Yes Bacteria are everywhere. But I dont recall any one specifically stating that they had seen DECOMPOSITION on the Bodies of the Dyatlov Group  !  ? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 27, 2019, 11:49:47 AM
Why am I missing the point?

You say, that because Vozrojdeniy did not specifically mentioned animals and/or bacteria, there is no evidence of them being present, hence we need other explanation for the missing body parts of the decomposing for months in the wilderness bodies... Nice, what is your guess then?

I see no contradiction in my words. Ok, you may have rodents in your hotel room, but you can have bacteria everywhere. So it is absurd to eliminate their role in demaging and decomposition of the body, especially in the specific environment of the Pass.

Now, the process of decomposition and the cause of death are two separate things. Obviously, no specific relation was stated. They died because of their traumas, and they decay, because that is what happens when we die. That is probably way too obvious for a coroner, so no need to explain how and why they rot.

Dont get me wrong, but I think you are missing the point, while trying to exclude all reasonable facts, and looking for a sensational cause.

Well Iam definitely not looking for a sensational Cause.  Iam merely trying to look at this in the way a DETECTIVE may look at a potential MURDER CASE. Iam not eliminating Bacteria, Iam merely asking for PROOF as to its possible role in any so called DECOMPOSITION. Bear in mind that some Human bodies are found many years after death in very cold conditions and they are well preserved because of the cold. Bacteria love warm environments.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 27, 2019, 11:51:49 AM
http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=187.0

Quote
The fall scenario makes perfect sense for the pattern of chest wall injuries and scapula. I do not see that pattern as due to multiple blows (but not impossible  of course).

The situation regarding the eyes, perhaps tongue, etc could certainly be postmortem predation.  I would likely give the original pathologist benefit of the doubt on their interpretation.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 27, 2019, 11:52:46 AM
Extract from the www:

Hyoid bone, U-shaped bone situated at the root of the tongue in the front of the neck and between the lower jaw and the largest cartilage of the larynx, or voice box. The primary function of the hyoid bone is to serve as an anchoring structure for the tongue.


In Lyuda's autopsy report the "unusual movement of the hyoid bone is mentioned".

Bacterial or rodent damage?

Regards

Star man

 My favourite and I have had plenty to say about that particular Bone in other parts of this Forum. There is no proof that Bacteria or Rodents caused that damage.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 27, 2019, 11:55:10 AM
Extract from the www:

Hyoid bone, U-shaped bone situated at the root of the tongue in the front of the neck and between the lower jaw and the largest cartilage of the larynx, or voice box. The primary function of the hyoid bone is to serve as an anchoring structure for the tongue.


In Lyuda's autopsy report the "unusual movement of the hyoid bone is mentioned".

Bacterial or rodent damage?

Regards

Star man

If the entire area is decomposed, is it a wonder it has movement?

In that case why didnt the Report State that the damage was definitely duy to DECOMPOSITION  !  ?  Answer may be simple.  Because the damage wasnt  due to Decomposition.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 27, 2019, 11:58:15 AM
Just another quick thought on the hyoid bone.  The autopsy report mentions "unusual" movement of the bone.  If it is normal for the bone to loosen due to decomposition why would the autopsy describe it as "usual"

Regards

Star man

Thats right, and by the way you meant Unusual not usual, ie, Why would the Autopsy describe  it as Unusual Movement  !  ? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 27, 2019, 11:59:19 AM
Who the hell said anything about "damage"?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 27, 2019, 11:59:49 AM
Is it easier to pull a bone out of a living fish, or a 4 month dead rotten fish?

There were not any living  or dead fish at the Dyatlov Pass Incident.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 27, 2019, 12:00:51 PM
Extract from the www:

Hyoid bone, U-shaped bone situated at the root of the tongue in the front of the neck and between the lower jaw and the largest cartilage of the larynx, or voice box. The primary function of the hyoid bone is to serve as an anchoring structure for the tongue.


In Lyuda's autopsy report the "unusual movement of the hyoid bone is mentioned".

Bacterial or rodent damage?

Regards

Star man

 My favourite and I have had plenty to say about that particular Bone in other parts of this Forum. There is no proof that Bacteria or Rodents caused that damage.

I suppose a question that we could ask is - are there any other examples for the hyoid bone becoming loose due to decomposition or bacteria etc?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 27, 2019, 12:01:01 PM
Does it take cryptozoology or aliens to do this slippage?

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OFJrow7yaec/maxresdefault.jpg)

What does this mean  !  ? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 27, 2019, 12:01:10 PM
Just another quick thought on the hyoid bone.  The autopsy report mentions "unusual" movement of the bone.  If it is normal for the bone to loosen due to decomposition why would the autopsy describe it as "usual"

Regards

Star man

Thats right, and by the way you meant Unusual not usual, ie, Why would the Autopsy describe  it as Unusual Movement  !  ?

Prolly because when your alive or recently deceased, its not like that.  The rotted state in of itself created the unusual movement.  This isn't rocket science. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 27, 2019, 12:06:02 PM
Is it REALLY a wonder having the tongue rotten, that the cartilage associated with it had movement?   Seriously......
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 27, 2019, 12:25:59 PM
Getting to quote myself from another thread....  priceless. 

Also from the autopsy report.      whist1


Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.
 

Pretty sure the head encompasses everything within said head.   

 quiet1


 grin1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 27, 2019, 12:27:16 PM
^^^^^^^   literally.....  end of atory  ^^^^^^^^^
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 28, 2019, 12:45:12 PM
Just another quick thought on the hyoid bone.  The autopsy report mentions "unusual" movement of the bone.  If it is normal for the bone to loosen due to decomposition why would the autopsy describe it as "usual"

Regards

Star man

Thats right, and by the way you meant Unusual not usual, ie, Why would the Autopsy describe  it as Unusual Movement  !  ?

Prolly because when your alive or recently deceased, its not like that.  The rotted state in of itself created the unusual movement.  This isn't rocket science.

We know its not Rocket Science, thats for sure. But it doesnt make sense to put that Statement in the Autopsy Report if its common knowledge. I mean, the Autopsy person doesnt need to say specifically that such a body part is displaying unusual movement if that is what would normally be expected of that body part. Surely you must agree with what I have said  ! ?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 28, 2019, 12:47:13 PM
^^^^^^^   literally.....  end of atory  ^^^^^^^^^

Actually its the end of nothing because nothing as been proved.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 28, 2019, 01:11:23 PM
Whats been proven is whats in the autopsy.

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 28, 2019, 10:59:25 PM
I think with the proper expert advice it should be easy to conclude whether the loose hyoid bone loosening is usual or unusual.  Unfortunately I am not an expert on this, but maybe someone who reads this thread may know more. 

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 29, 2019, 12:49:38 AM
How accurate was google in its word choosing?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 29, 2019, 04:08:06 AM
How accurate was google in its word choosing?

I suspect that google translate will have its limitations.

Saying that there will be someone out there who has the right expertise who will know whether the movement of the hyoid bone is a normal part of decomposition.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 29, 2019, 12:05:45 PM
Whats been proven is whats in the autopsy.

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

Not sure what you mean by that.  The Autopsy Report is all that we have regarding the Autopsy, there was no other Examination done as far as I know. And also there appear to be questions about the Autopsy Report being thorough enough. The Autopsy Report alone does not provide the proof needed to establish the exact cause of all the Deaths.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 29, 2019, 12:09:35 PM
How accurate was google in its word choosing?

I suspect that google translate will have its limitations.

Saying that there will be someone out there who has the right expertise who will know whether the movement of the hyoid bone is a normal part of decomposition.

Regards
Star man

But surely if the movement of the Hyoid Bone is normal due to Decomposition then why bother to mention this in the Autopsy Report  !  ?   It appears to have been mentioned because its not a normal thing to happen.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 29, 2019, 12:13:00 PM
I agree, which is why concluding anything was ripped or cut out when it only states 'missing' is an extreme stretch in my opinion. Especially when the report specifically states.....

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

There is ample evidence this was caused by decomposition, and we have nothing to suggest it was anything else such as but not limited to ripped ot cut out. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 29, 2019, 12:19:42 PM
Quote
But surely if the movement of the Hyoid Bone is normal due to Decomposition then why bother to mention this in the Autopsy Report  !  ?   It appears to have been mentioned because its not a normal thing to happen.

The decomposition is what makes it "not normal".....   She was found with her head and neck slumped over a boulder. Is it not possible for the weight of her body and the rotten nature of the area to cause movement in cartilage that has movement to begin with?   Again, is it easier to wiggle a bone loose from a thawed dead rotten fish, or a freshly dead and frozen fish?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 29, 2019, 12:27:09 PM
Ask yourself this....

Why would it be a Yeti, and not for instance a giant purple penguin?  This theory requires a big non human animal....  Why not a flying Mothman or a shapeshifting Chupacabra?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 29, 2019, 01:28:44 PM
I think I would say that there appears to have been something large and powerful with potentially 30cm long hands.  I don't actually know that it was a Yeti or if they exist.  There seems to have been some strange hapenings though.  It definitely wasn't a penguin - no hands.  I don't think it was unicorns farting either. 

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 29, 2019, 06:36:01 PM
 bigjoke

fair enough.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 29, 2019, 11:44:58 PM
Where do I currently stand on this?

As I said above I am not claiming that the dpi was caused by a Yeti.  We don’t know if they exist.  However if you laid out all of the current theories in a circle and placed a indicative evidence compass in the middle I would say that to me it seems to be pointing strongly at the possibility of some kind of large powerful ape like creature and slightly towards the military test.  The only known species of ape I think is capable of causing those injury patterns is a Gorilla.  So I still think the compass is pointing towards the military test using some kind of ape as a test subject:

Ape + radiation + cover up =?

But if it wasn’t something like that then it seems to me that we are left with the really bizarre possibilities of a Yeti or some other weird thing.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 31, 2019, 12:41:49 PM
I agree, which is why concluding anything was ripped or cut out when it only states 'missing' is an extreme stretch in my opinion. Especially when the report specifically states.....

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

There is ample evidence this was caused by decomposition, and we have nothing to suggest it was anything else such as but not limited to ripped ot cut out.

Ample Evidence  !  ?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 31, 2019, 12:46:15 PM
Quote
But surely if the movement of the Hyoid Bone is normal due to Decomposition then why bother to mention this in the Autopsy Report  !  ?   It appears to have been mentioned because its not a normal thing to happen.

The decomposition is what makes it "not normal".....   She was found with her head and neck slumped over a boulder. Is it not possible for the weight of her body and the rotten nature of the area to cause movement in cartilage that has movement to begin with?   Again, is it easier to wiggle a bone loose from a thawed dead rotten fish, or a freshly dead and frozen fish?

But why does the Autopsy Report report the Unusual Movement ! ? You are saying that Decomposition is normal in this particular case  !  ?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 31, 2019, 12:49:36 PM
Ask yourself this....

Why would it be a Yeti, and not for instance a giant purple penguin?  This theory requires a big non human animal....  Why not a flying Mothman or a shapeshifting Chupacabra?

Giant Purple Penguin  !  ?  But people have been reporting large Ape like Creatures for hundreds of years right up to present times. I dont see or hear of any reports of GIANT PURPLE PENGUINS though.  Flying Creatures have been reported and also Shapeshifters. And Chupacabra.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 31, 2019, 12:56:32 PM
Where do I currently stand on this?

As I said above I am not claiming that the dpi was caused by a Yeti.  We don’t know if they exist.  However if you laid out all of the current theories in a circle and placed a indicative evidence compass in the middle I would say that to me it seems to be pointing strongly at the possibility of some kind of large powerful ape like creature and slightly towards the military test.  The only known species of ape I think is capable of causing those injury patterns is a Gorilla.  So I still think the compass is pointing towards the military test using some kind of ape as a test subject:

Ape + radiation + cover up =?

But if it wasn’t something like that then it seems to me that we are left with the really bizarre possibilities of a Yeti or some other weird thing.

Regards

Star man

We are moving towards the unknown. When I first came upon this Dyatlov Mystery My first thoughts was that it was some kind of Creature, whether of this World or whatever. Then I became interested in the UFO reports. And then the Radiation reports. ETC ETC.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 31, 2019, 05:31:23 PM
Where do I currently stand on this?

As I said above I am not claiming that the dpi was caused by a Yeti.  We don’t know if they exist.  However if you laid out all of the current theories in a circle and placed a indicative evidence compass in the middle I would say that to me it seems to be pointing strongly at the possibility of some kind of large powerful ape like creature and slightly towards the military test.  The only known species of ape I think is capable of causing those injury patterns is a Gorilla.  So I still think the compass is pointing towards the military test using some kind of ape as a test subject:

Ape + radiation + cover up =?

But if it wasn’t something like that then it seems to me that we are left with the really bizarre possibilities of a Yeti or some other weird thing.

Regards

Star man

We are moving towards the unknown. When I first came upon this Dyatlov Mystery My first thoughts was that it was some kind of Creature, whether of this World or whatever. Then I became interested in the UFO reports. And then the Radiation reports. ETC ETC.

I think it's important to have an open mind on these things.  It is equally important to have the devils advocate who challenges the strange and weird ideas.  LC does a good job at this but I am surprised that there are not more?  All ideas, theories and evidence needs to be tested.

One thing though.  Like all criminal cases the dpi requires evidence.  How do we get this evidence:

Existing case files
People visiting the area and investigating themselves ( take hat off to you)
Converting existing ambiguous evidence into solid evidence through analytical techniques and expertise.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 31, 2019, 05:39:27 PM
Quote
LC does a good job at this but I am surprised that there are not more?

I would guess there is a certain percentage of more modest and verbally conservative then myself.   lol4
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: track hunter on August 31, 2019, 10:59:35 PM
Where do I currently stand on this?

As I said above I am not claiming that the dpi was caused by a Yeti.  We don’t know if they exist.  However if you laid out all of the current theories in a circle and placed a indicative evidence compass in the middle I would say that to me it seems to be pointing strongly at the possibility of some kind of large powerful ape like creature and slightly towards the military test.  The only known species of ape I think is capable of causing those injury patterns is a Gorilla.  So I still think the compass is pointing towards the military test using some kind of ape as a test subject:

Ape + radiation + cover up =?

But if it wasn’t something like that then it seems to me that we are left with the really bizarre possibilities of a Yeti or some other weird thing.

Regards

Star man
I recommend to read http://sasquatchgenomeproject.org/index.html, And this is our Russian site. Enough evidence http://alamas.ru/
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 01, 2019, 04:35:32 AM
The Patterson hoax is the main picture....  I don't care who you are, thats funny right there.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 02, 2019, 04:29:44 PM
Would just like to go back to the Lyuda's hyoid bone and it's "unusual" movement.  The autopsy reports of all three of the other rav 4 report that the hyoid bone is intact.  Curious.  If the unusual movement of the hyoid bone were due to decomposition and is normal, why aren't the hyoid bones of the other three moving unusually?  They have been there for just as long in the stream bed?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 02, 2019, 06:44:54 PM
Because she was slumped over a rock. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 02, 2019, 10:42:33 PM
Because she was slumped over a rock.

Why would being slumped over a rock make any difference?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 02, 2019, 10:46:03 PM
Where are the forensic details on the foot prints?  Does anyone here think that the case files reflect an adequate  investigation of the foot prints?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Morski on September 02, 2019, 10:50:55 PM
Because she was slumped over a rock.

Why would being slumped over a rock make any difference?

Regards

Star man

If I remember correctly, she was slumped over the rock, face down, and water was running through her open mouth. So...
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 02, 2019, 10:57:13 PM
There is a lot of information available in the case files on the clothing.  We know what they were wearing, whether it was torn, cut or burned.  We not whether it was shabby or not.  But another question for me is where is the analysis of the biological samples - blood stains - although DNA analysis was nt available in 1959 blood groups were easily discernible and the difference between human and non human blood types could be resolved.  Again in a criminal investigation would you not look for blood groups that did not match the hikers?  These are just some peculiarities.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 02, 2019, 10:58:44 PM
Because she was slumped over a rock.

Why would being slumped over a rock make any difference?

Regards

Star man

If I remember correctly, she was slumped over the rock, face down, and water was running through her open mouth. So...

I was wondering the same thing.  So did any of the others in the stream bed have their heads in water?  I'll have to look into that.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 02, 2019, 11:45:09 PM
Quote from the main website:

The bodies of the men cannot be identified without removing them from the water.

This suggests that the men in the ravine had their faces in the water too?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 03, 2019, 05:52:30 AM
Welp....   the three males were on their side with their mouths facing down stream. Think about sticking your head out of a car window at speed.... is there a difference between facing the airstream vs the back of your head towards the airstream?  In addition, the female had the weight of her upper body slumped of a rock applying pressure in odd areas, most likely the neck.  In addition, if the tongue was rotten, and the mouth open facing the incoming water stream, it would flop around in the mouth.  The hyoid bone is connected to the tongue just below the jaw and controls movement of the tongue particularly when swallowing.... what you you think will happen to a bone that controls the tongue in a facing the water stream plopping around while rotten will do to the hyoid bone?   Perhaps give it some "unusual" movement?    Remember, if the tongue was missing from decomposition but the hyoid bone remains without the flesh that it connects to..... would it have movement?   Again, if you lay out a dead fish to decompose and the flesh is rotten and even missing around the ribs..... would the ribs have movement?   

This is common sense stuff that shouldn't have to be explained in detail. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 03, 2019, 08:49:49 AM
Ok.  Some good points.  We should probably expect a faster rate of decay given that Lyuda face and open mouth was directly in the flow of the water.  But the mention of “unusual “ movement of the hyoid in Lyuda autopsy report is still suspicious, especially as the autopsy reports of the others specifically mention that they are intact.  Why differentiate between those with intact hyoid bone and those with “unusual “ movement?

The autopsy reports do not mention any other type of intact bones.  He didn’t say ankle bones were in intact for instance.  Why specifically mention the hyoid bone?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 03, 2019, 09:30:58 AM
I dunno...  perhaps they were secretly trying to hide that Yeti is a double agent for the KGB and has a weird fetish for hyoid bone necklaces.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on September 03, 2019, 12:41:54 PM
The Yeti theory is still in the hat. The problem I have with it is there is no ripping, tearing, shredding of skin that would occur (I would think) with an animal so big and with claws like a bear. Also biting. If it had been any kind of an animal the marks and wounds would show this type of pattern. What I see is kicking, hitting with fists, etc.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 03, 2019, 04:21:18 PM
I dunno...  perhaps they were secretly trying to hide that Yeti is a double agent for the KGB and has a weird fetish for hyoid bone necklaces.

Putting Yetis aside - when I first started looking at the dpi I thought that the missing eyes and tongue could easily be explained by small animal predation and natural decay processes.  But closer examination of the injuries points to something more sinister in my opinion, and this raises the question about the other reported body damage including  Lyuda's tongue and other facial injuries and Semyon's eyes and facial injuries.  The two people with  the more significant flail chest injuries both also have missing eyes and other facial damage.  The unusual movement of Lyuda's hyoid bone may be an important clue.  It should also be noted that Lyuda had 100 cc of red mucous mass in her stomach which is likely to be blood.  This would point towards the tongue being removed before she died.  If this is the case then I doubt that the tongue was removed by small animal predator or decay.  I Think the hyoid bone and it's state as reported in the autopsy could really do with expert comment.  Unfortunately I am not an expert in this field.

The hyoid bone combined with coagulated blood in the stomach of Lyuda points towards the tongue being forcibly removed.  If this is the case then I suspect her and Semyon's eyes may also have been forcibly removed, but still may be the result of small animal and birds.  I think these clues are important for any theory that proposes a violent end for the dpi group.

Regards

star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 03, 2019, 04:30:44 PM
The Yeti theory is still in the hat. The problem I have with it is there is no ripping, tearing, shredding of skin that would occur (I would think) with an animal so big and with claws like a bear. Also biting. If it had been any kind of an animal the marks and wounds would show this type of pattern. What I see is kicking, hitting with fists, etc.

I don't think that we should assume that a Yeti has razor sharp claws like a bear.  Nevertheless, you make a very good point.  Where are the bite marks?  A Gorilla with its human like nails is still actually capable of disembowelling a human.  Is it possible that whatever attacked them did not have time to utilise all of its natural weapons because it too was under attack, by the people who were attempting to defend their friends?  The knife is still missing.  What happened to it.  Was it used in defence of those who were mauled?  Was it plunged into something that limped away with a knife stuck in its hide?  I don't know.  But a very good question.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 03, 2019, 06:42:04 PM
Your in luck.   

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=187.0

Quote
The situation regarding the eyes, perhaps tongue, etc could certainly be postmortem predation.  I would likely give the original pathologist benefit of the doubt on their interpretation.


https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

Quote
When palpating the neck, there is extraordinary mobility of the thyrohyal and thyroid cartilages.

Quote
Diaphragm of mouth and tongue absent. The upper margin of the hyoid bone is exposed.

Quote
There is no tongue in the oral cavity. Mucous cavities of the mouth are gray-greenish in color
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 03, 2019, 07:23:24 PM
In addition, the forums autopsy reports need to be updated/copied from the parent site.  Until we get around to doing that, I would suggest using the translated version on dyatlovpass.com as Teddy herself translated the report and would be MUCH more accurate then what google translate does. 

The correct translation 'extraordinary'

Quote
there is extraordinary mobility of the thyrohyal and thyroid cartilages.


There happens to be THREE definition uses for the word extraordinary.

Extraordinary
EXTRAOR'DINARY, adjective extror'dinary. [Latin extraordinarius; extra and ordinarius, usual, from ordo, order.]

1. Beyond or out of the common order or method; not in the usual, customary or regular course; not ordinary. extraordinary evils require extraordinary remedies.

2. Exceeding the common degree or measure; hence, remarkable; uncommon; rare; wonderful; as the extraordinary talents of Shakespeare; the extraordinary powers of Newton; an edifice of extraordinary grandeur.

3. Special; particular; sent for a special purpose, or on a particular occasion; as an extraordinary courier or messenger; an embassador extraordinary; a gazette extraordinary



Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 03, 2019, 07:30:02 PM
Now, if I broke my leg and the doctor said there is extraordinary movement of the bones....  does this warrant a bigfoot investigation?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 03, 2019, 10:53:51 PM
Now, if I broke my leg and the doctor said there is extraordinary movement of the bones....  does this warrant a bigfoot investigation?

It would not be first line of investigation.  But then it was not my first line of investigation of the dpi either.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 03, 2019, 11:03:13 PM
Your in luck.   

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=187.0

Quote
The situation regarding the eyes, perhaps tongue, etc could certainly be postmortem predation.  I would likely give the original pathologist benefit of the doubt on their interpretation.


https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

Quote
When palpating the neck, there is extraordinary mobility of the thyrohyal and thyroid cartilages.

Quote
Diaphragm of mouth and tongue absent. The upper margin of the hyoid bone is exposed.

Quote
There is no tongue in the oral cavity. Mucous cavities of the mouth are gray-greenish in color

Well the independent pathologist report does confirm my own assumption that the chest injuries were unlikely to have been caused by multiple blows from a human.  Large surface area impact such as fall or car crash.  There are no tyre tracks.  Have already discussed toughts on possibility of fall.  Although he says the eyes and tongue "could" have been caused by decomposition and predation he refers back the the opinion of the original pathologist who doesn't say a lot about it.  I'll have to have another look at that.

Regards

Star man

Missing tongue + blood in stomach + extraordinary movement of the hyoid bone. 

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 04, 2019, 06:01:15 AM
Missing tongue + blood in stomach + extraordinary movement of the hyoid bone

can only mean.....


(https://i2.wp.com/awesci.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/yeti.jpg?resize=672%2C372)
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 04, 2019, 06:06:15 AM
Quote
who doesn't say a lot about it

 shock1   holy crap....  its all over the place.  Slipping that, rotten this, greenish that.  1/3rd of the conclusion at the bottom points out the body and particularly the head is rotten and decayed.   What do you call it when organisms feed on flesh? 


I can't even grab ahold of my own tongue....  how Yeti with hands big enough to pop a head like a grape do it? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 04, 2019, 06:19:38 AM
It wasn't all blood in the stomach, but still....  she had massive internal bleeding.   Whats the point?  Are you suggesting that blood in the stomach can ONLY be a result of yeti ripping out the tongue?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 04, 2019, 08:50:03 AM
Missing tongue + blood in stomach + extraordinary movement of the hyoid bone

can only mean.....


(https://i2.wp.com/awesci.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/yeti.jpg?resize=672%2C372)

Nice picture.  Not quite what I was imagining though. 

Obviously the hyoid bone , tongue and blood would not in itself lead one to the conclusion in the attached picture.  And yes Lyuda was decomposing in the stream (God bless her).  I am merely pointing out that there are three pieces of information that point towards a conclusion and that is not necessarily a white one eyed cyclops yeti or any other yeti.   

If something looks like a duck and walks like a duck then it probably is a duck.

Brown + soft/sticky + smells like poo = chocolate ice cream?

Regards
Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 04, 2019, 08:56:41 AM
It wasn't all blood in the stomach, but still....  she had massive internal bleeding.   Whats the point?  Are you suggesting that blood in the stomach can ONLY be a result of yeti ripping out the tongue?

How else could the blood have gotten into her stomach?  Unlikely from internal bleeding into plural cavity.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 04, 2019, 09:08:51 AM
Quote
Unlikely from internal bleeding into plural cavity.

Says who?

Ever had a nose bleed?  You don't know whether or not she had a busted lip, or bit her own tongue prior to dying and subsequently it rotting away.    whist1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 04, 2019, 10:13:38 AM
How does Bigfoot cause them to have aortas three times the size they should be? 

The tonge....  please perform an experiment.  Put on a  catchers mitt and attempt an extraction on a family member? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 04, 2019, 10:15:33 AM
Quote
Unlikely from internal bleeding into plural cavity.

Says who?

Ever had a nose bleed?  You don't know whether or not she had a busted lip, or bit her own tongue prior to dying and subsequently it rotting away.    whist1

Yeah, could have been a nose bleed or bleeding mouth.

So being objective:

No tongue + unusual hyoid bone + blood could be a result of:

Natural decay
Or
Predation
Or
Violent attack

Any other options?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 04, 2019, 10:29:13 AM
Quote
No tongue + extraordinary movement of the hyoid bone + blood could be a result of:

fixed it for ya. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on September 05, 2019, 05:01:56 AM
Where do I currently stand on this?

As I said above I am not claiming that the dpi was caused by a Yeti.  We don’t know if they exist.  However if you laid out all of the current theories in a circle and placed a indicative evidence compass in the middle I would say that to me it seems to be pointing strongly at the possibility of some kind of large powerful ape like creature and slightly towards the military test.  The only known species of ape I think is capable of causing those injury patterns is a Gorilla.  So I still think the compass is pointing towards the military test using some kind of ape as a test subject:

Ape + radiation + cover up =?

But if it wasn’t something like that then it seems to me that we are left with the really bizarre possibilities of a Yeti or some other weird thing.

Regards

Star man

We are moving towards the unknown. When I first came upon this Dyatlov Mystery My first thoughts was that it was some kind of Creature, whether of this World or whatever. Then I became interested in the UFO reports. And then the Radiation reports. ETC ETC.

I think it's important to have an open mind on these things.  It is equally important to have the devils advocate who challenges the strange and weird ideas.  LC does a good job at this but I am surprised that there are not more?  All ideas, theories and evidence needs to be tested.

One thing though.  Like all criminal cases the dpi requires evidence.  How do we get this evidence:

Existing case files
People visiting the area and investigating themselves ( take hat off to you)
Converting existing ambiguous evidence into solid evidence through analytical techniques and expertise.

Regards

Star man

Yes we certainly need this sort of cross examination etc. Despite the fact that this Dyatlov Incident is now 60 years old its only in more recent times that proper Investigating as been done. Well as far as we know. Because we do not know whether or not the Authorities have been doing anything in secret. There is certainly a lot of MISSING EVIDENCE.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on September 05, 2019, 05:07:33 AM
There is a lot of information available in the case files on the clothing.  We know what they were wearing, whether it was torn, cut or burned.  We not whether it was shabby or not.  But another question for me is where is the analysis of the biological samples - blood stains - although DNA analysis was nt available in 1959 blood groups were easily discernible and the difference between human and non human blood types could be resolved.  Again in a criminal investigation would you not look for blood groups that did not match the hikers?  These are just some peculiarities.

Regards

Star man

Maybe the Authorities did check up on that. And maybe they found something interesting. And maybe with the other factors it led them to IMMEDIATELY close the Case and seal off the area in question for several years.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on September 05, 2019, 05:17:42 AM
Welp....   the three males were on their side with their mouths facing down stream. Think about sticking your head out of a car window at speed.... is there a difference between facing the airstream vs the back of your head towards the airstream?  In addition, the female had the weight of her upper body slumped of a rock applying pressure in odd areas, most likely the neck.  In addition, if the tongue was rotten, and the mouth open facing the incoming water stream, it would flop around in the mouth.  The hyoid bone is connected to the tongue just below the jaw and controls movement of the tongue particularly when swallowing.... what you you think will happen to a bone that controls the tongue in a facing the water stream plopping around while rotten will do to the hyoid bone?   Perhaps give it some "unusual" movement?    Remember, if the tongue was missing from decomposition but the hyoid bone remains without the flesh that it connects to..... would it have movement?   Again, if you lay out a dead fish to decompose and the flesh is rotten and even missing around the ribs..... would the ribs have movement?   

This is common sense stuff that shouldn't have to be explained in detail.

Its a shame that the Autopsy Reports were not more SPECIFIC. So many factors in The Dyatlov Case point to something not quite right.  Also in the Autopsy Report were there is the possibility of a Crime having been committed you would have thought that there would have been some kind of explanation regarding the Unusual Movement of the Hyoid Bone. Any Medical Experts out there  !  ? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on September 05, 2019, 05:21:47 AM
Ok.  Some good points.  We should probably expect a faster rate of decay given that Lyuda face and open mouth was directly in the flow of the water.  But the mention of “unusual “ movement of the hyoid in Lyuda autopsy report is still suspicious, especially as the autopsy reports of the others specifically mention that they are intact.  Why differentiate between those with intact hyoid bone and those with “unusual “ movement?

The autopsy reports do not mention any other type of intact bones.  He didn’t say ankle bones were in intact for instance.  Why specifically mention the hyoid bone?

Regards

Star man

Probably because like so many other aspects of this Dyatlov Case something is not quite right. Any Autopsy Report were there is the possibility of Criminal Action having taken place, will be more SPECIFIC.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on September 05, 2019, 05:38:29 AM
Your in luck.   

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=187.0

Quote
The situation regarding the eyes, perhaps tongue, etc could certainly be postmortem predation.  I would likely give the original pathologist benefit of the doubt on their interpretation.


https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

Quote
When palpating the neck, there is extraordinary mobility of the thyrohyal and thyroid cartilages.

Quote
Diaphragm of mouth and tongue absent. The upper margin of the hyoid bone is exposed.

Quote
There is no tongue in the oral cavity. Mucous cavities of the mouth are gray-greenish in color



Interesting.   Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

The death of Dubinina is through violence.

Medical examiner signature (Vozrozhdenny)

So if Dubininas body was underwater then we should have expected more ROT and DECAY  !  ?  So why wasnt more of the Body Soft Tissues MISSING etc. Why just those at the Head part of the Body  !  ? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 09, 2019, 07:58:40 AM
Your in luck.   

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=187.0

Quote
The situation regarding the eyes, perhaps tongue, etc could certainly be postmortem predation.  I would likely give the original pathologist benefit of the doubt on their interpretation.


https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

Quote
When palpating the neck, there is extraordinary mobility of the thyrohyal and thyroid cartilages.

Quote
Diaphragm of mouth and tongue absent. The upper margin of the hyoid bone is exposed.

Quote
There is no tongue in the oral cavity. Mucous cavities of the mouth are gray-greenish in color



Interesting.   Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

The death of Dubinina is through violence.

Medical examiner signature (Vozrozhdenny)

So if Dubininas body was underwater then we should have expected more ROT and DECAY  !  ?  So why wasnt more of the Body Soft Tissues MISSING etc. Why just those at the Head part of the Body  !  ?

The dpi is a complicated mystery made up of different components:

The tent
The slope
The cedar
The ravine

Each of the above components has sub components. 

Each of the components and sub components may have different possible explanations and taken in isolation they may seem justified.  The problem comes when you try to explain each of the explanations of the various components in a logical and sensible way.  If it doesn’t fit together holistically the narrative soon unravels.

For example the facial injuries and the tongue could very well have been the result of decay and predation, but we are still left with three bodies each with major trauma that is uncharacteristic of them all falling and which requires forced beyond normal human capabilities.  The autopsy reports their deaths as violent.  So then you ask yourself is it likely or unlikely that the facial injuries and tongue are natural decay and predation? 

Just to illustrate this principle using an analogy:

If you discovered a body on the beach with a severed leg lying next to it, and several metres away there was also a beached dead great white shark, how would you conclude the persons leg was severed?  It could have been a result of a boating accident?  It could have been severed by jagged rocks? Both are possible.  Or would you think there was a good chance that the shark had something to do with it?

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on September 09, 2019, 09:20:44 PM
My own personal thoughts on the missing tongue is that yes, it could have been from insects/fish but why was the tongue exposed in the first place? It appears from the autopsy Lyudia had red substance in her stomach, which could have been blood. I don't know what else it could have been. If the tongue was cut/bitten and there was blood in the mouth, that would signal insects/fish to that area of her body. I can only assume the eyes were the result of insects/fish/decay. But the tongue very well may have been bitten half off which would draw predatory insects.

How far into the water was her body and for how long? total of 3 months or only wet for 1 month  or even 2 weeks? This  info would factor into the tongue being eaten by insects as otherwise she was frozen completely until starting to defrost. Dyatlov was frozen but pretty much exposed and his eyes were not missing. So, it is a question and a mystery.

That is my thought on the tongue being missing....
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 09, 2019, 11:47:17 PM
My own personal thoughts on the missing tongue is that yes, it could have been from insects/fish but why was the tongue exposed in the first place? It appears from the autopsy Lyudia had red substance in her stomach, which could have been blood. I don't know what else it could have been. If the tongue was cut/bitten and there was blood in the mouth, that would signal insects/fish to that area of her body. I can only assume the eyes were the result of insects/fish/decay. But the tongue very well may have been bitten half off which would draw predatory insects.

How far into the water was her body and for how long? total of 3 months or only wet for 1 month  or even 2 weeks? This  info would factor into the tongue being eaten by insects as otherwise she was frozen completely until starting to defrost. Dyatlov was frozen but pretty much exposed and his eyes were not missing. So, it is a question and a mystery.

That is my thought on the tongue being missing....

My own personal thoughts on the missing tongue is that yes, it could have been from insects/fish but why was the tongue exposed in the first place? It appears from the autopsy Lyudia had red substance in her stomach, which could have been blood. I don't know what else it could have been. If the tongue was cut/bitten and there was blood in the mouth, that would signal insects/fish to that area of her body. I can only assume the eyes were the result of insects/fish/decay. But the tongue very well may have been bitten half off which would draw predatory insects.

How far into the water was her body and for how long? total of 3 months or only wet for 1 month  or even 2 weeks? This  info would factor into the tongue being eaten by insects as otherwise she was frozen completely until starting to defrost. Dyatlov was frozen but pretty much exposed and his eyes were not missing. So, it is a question and a mystery.

That is my thought on the tongue being missing....

The red substance in the stomach probably was blood.  The question is where was it from.  There are several plausible explanations including:

Bleeding from the nose.  Lyuda’s nose cartilage was flattened, possibly by some kind of impact/blow.  It could have been blood from this.  It could have been from bleedingl lips, gums etc or it could be because her tongue was bitten off or ripped out. 

You make a good point about the partial damage biting of the tongue and subsequent acceleration of decay.  I think it is a good question about how long the body was in the water.

I don’t think we will be able to answer all these questions with any certainty without additional forensic evidence though.

Sometimes though, the absence of evidence is almost as striking as the evidence itself imo.  A kind of smoking gun as the saying goes.  An example of this imp is the absence of detailed forensic information about the foot prints. 

Everything leaves a trace.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 15, 2019, 04:06:34 PM
Was the door to the tent fully open, partially open or closed that night on the pass?  Was just reading Akselrod's statement again and he states that only some of the toggles were open.  He also states that the back of the tent is pulled tight and therefore it would be difficult for someone to crawl out.  Is there any other evidence or information on whether the door was found open or closed?  Or is Akselrod simply relaying what he thinks may have happened? This information may be important.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 16, 2019, 01:44:06 PM
There are conflicting statements within the case files.... WAB says the opening had the lower section unbuttoned and it is possible for humans to enter/exit in that configuration. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 16, 2019, 02:07:58 PM
There are conflicting statements within the case files.... WAB says the opening had the lower section unbuttoned and it is possible for humans to enter/exit in that configuration.

WAB's statement would align with Akselrod's then.  Probably wouldn't need much of an opening to crawl in or out.  Slobstov found the tent, but haven't seen any statements he made about whether the toggles were fastened or not.  I'll continue to peruse the files.  Thanks.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 17, 2019, 11:48:03 PM
Have been wondering again what the relationship is between the cedar and the den.    A question for me is:

 Did the two Yuris and the ravine 4 arrive at the cedar together or did the rav 4 find the cedar later? 

My impression from the information in the files is that they arrived together.  There are statements about there being more work completed than two people could achieve etc.  There is also the half burned women’s handkerchief.  We know the rav 4 were there at some point as they took the clothing and used it.  Also thinking about Akselrod’s statement the wind was not too strong as Rustems hat would likely be blown off.  But common sense might be a better guide given the above information and the fact that the den was only about 75m from the cedar.  If both the Yuris and the rav 4 were at these locations at the same time then I think they would be able to hear each other and smell the smoke from the fire.  Also unless they were compelled to separate they would know that their chance of surviving would be better if they stayed together.  So there is enough evidence to support this.

So if the above is true, then why was there no fire at the den site?  You would think that they would build a den and a fire if they could.

Is it possible that they were in the process of moving from the cedar to the den and had not had time to light a fire yet?  Is it also possible that if they were attacked at the den by whatever/whoever that Kolevatov was at the cedar collecting clothing and anything else that may have been useful and therefore he was not at the den when the attack happened!

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 18, 2019, 06:59:19 PM
Yeah...  I dunno.  Lots of variables and possibilities.   
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 19, 2019, 11:08:19 PM
Just some more searching questions about the three cuts that appear to have been made from the inside of the tent.  There were two small cuts and one cut just under 90cm.  There were also some scratch marks as if other attempts had been made with a knife but they didn’t penetrate the fabric.

We don’t know for sure who made these cuts but for argument sake if we assume that the Dyatlov group made them then what circumstances would they have needed to cut the tent?

The three main reasons that come to my mind are:

The main entrance was somehow not available.  However from my understanding I think the cuts were fairly close to the entrance.

They were trying to slash at someone or something outside the tent

The tent had collapsed in the middle and the hikers being in distress for some reason decided to cut the tent to get out.

Any other possibilities?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on September 21, 2019, 12:30:33 PM
Your in luck.   

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=187.0

Quote
The situation regarding the eyes, perhaps tongue, etc could certainly be postmortem predation.  I would likely give the original pathologist benefit of the doubt on their interpretation.


https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

Quote
When palpating the neck, there is extraordinary mobility of the thyrohyal and thyroid cartilages.

Quote
Diaphragm of mouth and tongue absent. The upper margin of the hyoid bone is exposed.

Quote
There is no tongue in the oral cavity. Mucous cavities of the mouth are gray-greenish in color



Interesting.   Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

The death of Dubinina is through violence.

Medical examiner signature (Vozrozhdenny)

So if Dubininas body was underwater then we should have expected more ROT and DECAY  !  ?  So why wasnt more of the Body Soft Tissues MISSING etc. Why just those at the Head part of the Body  !  ?

The dpi is a complicated mystery made up of different components:

The tent
The slope
The cedar
The ravine

Each of the above components has sub components. 

Each of the components and sub components may have different possible explanations and taken in isolation they may seem justified.  The problem comes when you try to explain each of the explanations of the various components in a logical and sensible way.  If it doesn’t fit together holistically the narrative soon unravels.

For example the facial injuries and the tongue could very well have been the result of decay and predation, but we are still left with three bodies each with major trauma that is uncharacteristic of them all falling and which requires forced beyond normal human capabilities.  The autopsy reports their deaths as violent.  So then you ask yourself is it likely or unlikely that the facial injuries and tongue are natural decay and predation? 

Just to illustrate this principle using an analogy:

If you discovered a body on the beach with a severed leg lying next to it, and several metres away there was also a beached dead great white shark, how would you conclude the persons leg was severed?  It could have been a result of a boating accident?  It could have been severed by jagged rocks? Both are possible.  Or would you think there was a good chance that the shark had something to do with it?

Regards

Star man

Well put. This is the way to carry out any kind of proper investigation, which means that the Russian or should I say Soviet Government clearly did not carry out a proper investigation FOR SOME REASON.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 21, 2019, 03:59:43 PM
Your in luck.   

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=187.0

Quote
The situation regarding the eyes, perhaps tongue, etc could certainly be postmortem predation.  I would likely give the original pathologist benefit of the doubt on their interpretation.


https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

Quote
When palpating the neck, there is extraordinary mobility of the thyrohyal and thyroid cartilages.

Quote
Diaphragm of mouth and tongue absent. The upper margin of the hyoid bone is exposed.

Quote
There is no tongue in the oral cavity. Mucous cavities of the mouth are gray-greenish in color



Interesting.   Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

The death of Dubinina is through violence.

Medical examiner signature (Vozrozhdenny)

So if Dubininas body was underwater then we should have expected more ROT and DECAY  !  ?  So why wasnt more of the Body Soft Tissues MISSING etc. Why just those at the Head part of the Body  !  ?

The dpi is a complicated mystery made up of different components:

The tent
The slope
The cedar
The ravine

Each of the above components has sub components. 

Each of the components and sub components may have different possible explanations and taken in isolation they may seem justified.  The problem comes when you try to explain each of the explanations of the various components in a logical and sensible way.  If it doesn’t fit together holistically the narrative soon unravels.

For example the facial injuries and the tongue could very well have been the result of decay and predation, but we are still left with three bodies each with major trauma that is uncharacteristic of them all falling and which requires forced beyond normal human capabilities.  The autopsy reports their deaths as violent.  So then you ask yourself is it likely or unlikely that the facial injuries and tongue are natural decay and predation? 

Just to illustrate this principle using an analogy:

If you discovered a body on the beach with a severed leg lying next to it, and several metres away there was also a beached dead great white shark, how would you conclude the persons leg was severed?  It could have been a result of a boating accident?  It could have been severed by jagged rocks? Both are possible.  Or would you think there was a good chance that the shark had something to do with it?

Regards

Star man

Well put. This is the way to carry out any kind of proper investigation, which means that the Russian or should I say Soviet Government clearly did not carry out a proper investigation FOR SOME REASON.

Or, do you mean they did carry out a proper investigation but the proper investigation is not what is presented in the available files?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 24, 2019, 08:40:29 AM
If you are one of those who believe that there is something odd about the investigation and that there is evidence of a cover up  let me ask you this question:

9 hikers die in the wilderness and there is evidence that they were attacked and killed by a Menk.  Why would the authorities try to withhold such evidence and cover up the case?  What possible motive could they have?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on September 30, 2019, 11:32:15 AM
Quoted from Star Man

[[  Or, do you mean they did carry out a proper investigation but the proper investigation is not what is presented in the available files?  ]]

 [[  If you are one of those who believe that there is something odd about the investigation and that there is evidence of a cover up  let me ask you this question:
9 hikers die in the wilderness and there is evidence that they were attacked and killed by a Menk.  Why would the authorities try to withhold such evidence and cover up the case?  What possible motive could they have?  ]]


Yes I know what you mean. I mention the obvious first and that is that it must surely be clear to most Investigators that the Authorities did not carry out a proper Investigation for one reason or another.
And the more any Investigator looks into this mystery the more they will suspect that something is ODD. But we dont have any real evidence that the Dyatlov Group was attacked and killed by a MENK  !  ?  But yes if that was the case then Iam sure that most Investigators would conclude that the Case was quickly closed in the Interests of The Public so as not to cause ALARM etc. Much like we still get plenty of UFO sightings and experiences and the Authorities which ever Country they may be in are quick to close such reports down and pass them off as natural phenomenon or whatever. Anything bar the TRUTH. Whatever the TRUTH may be.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 30, 2019, 01:53:21 PM
Quoted from Star Man

[[  Or, do you mean they did carry out a proper investigation but the proper investigation is not what is presented in the available files?  ]]

 [[  If you are one of those who believe that there is something odd about the investigation and that there is evidence of a cover up  let me ask you this question:
9 hikers die in the wilderness and there is evidence that they were attacked and killed by a Menk.  Why would the authorities try to withhold such evidence and cover up the case?  What possible motive could they have?  ]]


Yes I know what you mean. I mention the obvious first and that is that it must surely be clear to most Investigators that the Authorities did not carry out a proper Investigation for one reason or another.
And the more any Investigator looks into this mystery the more they will suspect that something is ODD. But we dont have any real evidence that the Dyatlov Group was attacked and killed by a MENK  !  ?  But yes if that was the case then Iam sure that most Investigators would conclude that the Case was quickly closed in the Interests of The Public so as not to cause ALARM etc. Much like we still get plenty of UFO sightings and experiences and the Authorities which ever Country they may be in are quick to close such reports down and pass them off as natural phenomenon or whatever. Anything bar the TRUTH. Whatever the TRUTH may be.

Well I think one thing is fairly clear and that is that the dpi was not caused by some natural event such as an avalanche or weather as any of these events would not warrant any kind of cover up.  Why would you cover up a strong wind?  That leaves weirdness, man made accidents, or murder.  But I still think Thibo's head injury and the shape of the depressed fracture being identical to the ball of a very large thumb is difficult to explain away and what are the chances of this simply being a coincidence?  Then when you consider that the thumb would need to have belonged to a hand the size of an A4 sheet of paper we are into the weird.  But then when you look at the rib fractures and the forces required to inflict them, a 30cm long hand makes perfect sense. 

Regards

Star mam
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on September 30, 2019, 04:30:39 PM
Starman: When you say the depression in his head was like a huge thumb, I have trouble imagining any beast hitting someone's head with their thumb. If the hiker's head was grabbed by the beast's hand, and the thumb was pressed into the side of his head making this fracture, then the other side of his head or neck should also show trauma if his head was indeed "squeezed" by a huge hand....
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 30, 2019, 11:37:23 PM
Starman: When you say the depression in his head was like a huge thumb, I have trouble imagining any beast hitting someone's head with their thumb. If the hiker's head was grabbed by the beast's hand, and the thumb was pressed into the side of his head making this fracture, then the other side of his head or neck should also show trauma if his head was indeed "squeezed" by a huge hand....

When I say thumb I am talking about the ball of the thumb at the base.  Imagine Thibo is on the ground on his side.  His head is on the snow.  Now imagine this hand coming down really fast and hard and continuing to push with full force and weight behind it.  The base of the hand and ball of the thumb is where maximum force is applied.

Does that make it any clearer?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 30, 2019, 11:41:30 PM
Jarrfan.  Thinking about what you said about Thibo’s head injury being on both sides.  Have a look at Rustem head injuries.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 01, 2019, 08:33:36 AM
Some thoughts on the sequence of events based on the idea that they were attacked by something at the tent:

If something attacked them then it was probably terrifying and dangerous enough to cause them to leave their only safe means of survival with insufficient clothing to survive the cold weather for any significant length of time .  They move down the slope towards the tree line and spot a tall cedar that is prominent on the landscape.  They move towards and climb the cedar to escape the threat on the ground.  They cling to the cedar for some time until they believe the threat has moved away.  By this time the two Yuris are in a bad way and the group desperately try to light a fire.  When the fire is lit it is already too late for the two Yuris who have lost too much body heat.  They or their friends try to warm their numb limbs and bodies, burning their skin in the process.  The Yuris die.

The cedar - even with the fire is too exposed and not the best place for a shelter so they scout around for a better place to hide and shelter themselves.  They decide to build a shelter in the nearby ravine and begin setting it up and moving branches and clothing across to the ravine.  They cut the clothing off the Yuris and use some themselves and other pieces to insulate them from the ground.  Before the shelter is complete and a fire is lit the threat returns and attacks those in the ravine.  Kolevatov is at the cedar.  He hears the screams, drops the clothing he is carrying and tries to get back to his friends but it is too late.  Maybe Kolevatov fights off the attacker with the knife and sticks it into the attacker.   There is now not much Kolevatov can do other than try to comfort his dying friends, eventually dying himself.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on October 01, 2019, 11:19:35 AM
Yes, I looked at Slobodin's injuries, now his appear that his head could have been crushed by a large hand or two hands pushing on his temporal bones. The only thing I can say about these injuries is that the temporal bones are the easiest to crush since they are the thinnest of the skull bones. If someone or something pushed into his temporal bones on each side they could cause such an injury.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 01, 2019, 02:44:41 PM
Yes, I looked at Slobodin's injuries, now his appear that his head could have been crushed by a large hand or two hands pushing on his temporal bones. The only thing I can say about these injuries is that the temporal bones are the easiest to crush since they are the thinnest of the skull bones. If someone or something pushed into his temporal bones on each side they could cause such an injury.

Thibo's depressed fracture would have taken a force in the region of 450kg but without any soft tissue damage.  The two linear fractures extent under and through the saddle of the skull and around the front to the occipital region.  The linear fractures alone would require a significant force, so the full force of this injury would have been significant and beyond any human capability using bare hands.  Slobodin's skull fracture is less significant but follows a similar pattern.  The flail chests and fractured ribs would also require forces in excess of a normal human.  Yet, the injuries are very specific.  For accidental falls there is a 25 to 70% chance of receiving other injuries to ankles, wrists, arms and legs etc, but there are no such injuries.  Now the chances of all three falling and not sustaining the other types of injuries to extremities is remote.  Now combine the above with the fact that Thibo's head injury is pretty much identical in shape to the pad of the ball of a thumb and it starts getting pretty weird. 

I tried comparing the ratio of major and minor axis of Thibo's elliptical depressed fracture with my own thumb:

Thibo's fracture = 1.25
My thumb = 1.27

I think I got that the right way round.

That's is pretty much the same shape.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on October 02, 2019, 10:09:11 AM
I have to wonder if the most severe injuries, i.e., skull fractures which were undetected on the outside skin, could it be possible the skin was damaged by severe bruising but because of the mottling and skin freezer burns, the effects of a bruise were originally undetected?

I say this because it makes no sense as to how these people were so injured on the inside but there were no outward signs, according to the autopsy reports? As the autopsy shows Slobodin with a severe head fracture on both sides, how could this not be evident on the outside of his skull? I have to surmise it was because of the color of the skin after freezing.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 02, 2019, 02:27:45 PM
I have to wonder if the most severe injuries, i.e., skull fractures which were undetected on the outside skin, could it be possible the skin was damaged by severe bruising but because of the mottling and skin freezer burns, the effects of a bruise were originally undetected?

I say this because it makes no sense as to how these people were so injured on the inside but there were no outward signs, according to the autopsy reports? As the autopsy shows Slobodin with a severe head fracture on both sides, how could this not be evident on the outside of his skull? I have to surmise it was because of the color of the skin after freezing.

I think you have raised some interesting questions.  I can’t say that I know the answers.  I would imagine that if a significant force is applied to external soft tissue and that force is transmitted through the tissue then the small capillaries and blood vessels would be damaged and there would be some bruising.  Maybe because it was cold, the bodies natural protective reaction kicked in and the blood was restricted from the outer skin and extremities to protect the internal organs?  Then the small capillaries would not leak blood into the surrounding tissue and therefore there was not much bruising.  Also, if they died shortly afterward and the heart stopped then that would also prevent further bruising?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 07, 2019, 02:37:56 PM
I have to wonder if the most severe injuries, i.e., skull fractures which were undetected on the outside skin, could it be possible the skin was damaged by severe bruising but because of the mottling and skin freezer burns, the effects of a bruise were originally undetected?

I say this because it makes no sense as to how these people were so injured on the inside but there were no outward signs, according to the autopsy reports? As the autopsy shows Slobodin with a severe head fracture on both sides, how could this not be evident on the outside of his skull? I have to surmise it was because of the color of the skin after freezing.

I think you have raised some interesting questions.  I can’t say that I know the answers.  I would imagine that if a significant force is applied to external soft tissue and that force is transmitted through the tissue then the small capillaries and blood vessels would be damaged and there would be some bruising.  Maybe because it was cold, the bodies natural protective reaction kicked in and the blood was restricted from the outer skin and extremities to protect the internal organs?  Then the small capillaries would not leak blood into the surrounding tissue and therefore there was not much bruising.  Also, if they died shortly afterward and the heart stopped then that would also prevent further bruising?

Regards

Star man

Just another thought on the above - in the autopsy reports there are many reports of bruises on the bodies, so I doubt that the skin colour and mottling would have hidden any bruising around the major injuries of the rav 4.  Another possibility is that the injuries occurred after they had died, but there is also evidence that they were still alive when they received the injuries such as bleeding from the heart into the plural cavity.

Another option is that the injuries were caused by powerful blows but with softer pads of a hand?  As previously explored maybe a very large hand?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on October 08, 2019, 12:42:33 PM
Yes, I looked at Slobodin's injuries, now his appear that his head could have been crushed by a large hand or two hands pushing on his temporal bones. The only thing I can say about these injuries is that the temporal bones are the easiest to crush since they are the thinnest of the skull bones. If someone or something pushed into his temporal bones on each side they could cause such an injury.

Thibo's depressed fracture would have taken a force in the region of 450kg but without any soft tissue damage.  The two linear fractures extent under and through the saddle of the skull and around the front to the occipital region.  The linear fractures alone would require a significant force, so the full force of this injury would have been significant and beyond any human capability using bare hands.  Slobodin's skull fracture is less significant but follows a similar pattern.  The flail chests and fractured ribs would also require forces in excess of a normal human.  Yet, the injuries are very specific.  For accidental falls there is a 25 to 70% chance of receiving other injuries to ankles, wrists, arms and legs etc, but there are no such injuries.  Now the chances of all three falling and not sustaining the other types of injuries to extremities is remote.  Now combine the above with the fact that Thibo's head injury is pretty much identical in shape to the pad of the ball of a thumb and it starts getting pretty weird. 

I tried comparing the ratio of major and minor axis of Thibo's elliptical depressed fracture with my own thumb:

Thibo's fracture = 1.25
My thumb = 1.27

I think I got that the right way round.

That's is pretty much the same shape.

Regards

Star man

Well I have to say that you are providing good food for thought in your detailed descriptions.  It certainly goes against the grain of any of the usual official lines which tend to suggest the simplest explanations like FALLS or run of the mill fist FIGHTS etc. And there is a reason why that is the case because the AUTHORITIES covered up this case as quick as they could because something extraordinary and probably unearthly happened.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 08, 2019, 02:15:21 PM
Thanks.  It does seem to appear that something very strange happened to the hikers.  Maybe one more key piece of evidence might be enough to remove any doubt?  The problem is finding it.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 10, 2019, 06:57:13 PM
I am sorry to disappoint some people here but force of 450kg is just NOT beyond human capability. I personally know people who can deliver this amount of force with a direct punch, not to mention a kick. One well trained person with enough skill and weight around 100-120kg can cause basically all of these fractures in the matter of minutes without "superhuman" effort. As for "bigger" size of the "hands" needed to inflict the injuries, the simple explanation is gloves.

Just ask a question: if I were to replicate those injuries, what would I do? Who would be technically capable of that?

My answer is that a well trained soldier or marine can inflict these injuries.

The link below has a table at end that shows what force can be developed in combat sports. Please note that these have rules, unlike military combat.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2017/04/27/heavyweight-punch-brutal-weapon-sport/
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 10, 2019, 11:55:19 PM
I am sorry to disappoint some people here but force of 450kg is just NOT beyond human capability. I personally know people who can deliver this amount of force with a direct punch, not to mention a kick. One well trained person with enough skill and weight around 100-120kg can cause basically all of these fractures in the matter of minutes without "superhuman" effort. As for "bigger" size of the "hands" needed to inflict the injuries, the simple explanation is gloves.

Just ask a question: if I were to replicate those injuries, what would I do? Who would be technically capable of that?

My answer is that a well trained soldier or marine can inflict these injuries.

The link below has a table at end that shows what force can be developed in combat sports. Please note that these have rules, unlike military combat.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2017/04/27/heavyweight-punch-brutal-weapon-sport/

The figures presented in the link are in pounds not kg.  The super heavy weight professional delivers a force which is only just over 450kg.  I have already researched this and stated that only at the extreme end of human capability could Thibo’s depressed fracture be caused.  Kicks and knees could also do this, but it would be a very unlikely coincidence that the shape was in exact proportion to ball of thumb.  Also no human could deliver the forces required to cause Luda and Semyon chest injuries with a single blow as they were inflicted. 

The attacker theory doesn’t explain why Kolevatov was left alive?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on October 11, 2019, 05:15:23 PM
Dear Starman:

I was watching about the Jon Benet Ramsey murder case and she incurred a massive skull fracture that was not detectable on the outer skin except for a small bruise. I submit this in thinking about the Slobodin head injury. It seems whatever is used to inflict this destruction to the skull may not be visible as we would think it should be. No one knows how the blow was inflicted but it was suggested it might have been a flashlight, but it has never been proven.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 12, 2019, 03:26:20 PM
Dear Starman:

I was watching about the Jon Benet Ramsey murder case and she incurred a massive skull fracture that was not detectable on the outer skin except for a small bruise. I submit this in thinking about the Slobodin head injury. It seems whatever is used to inflict this destruction to the skull may not be visible as we would think it should be. No one knows how the blow was inflicted but it was suggested it might have been a flashlight, but it has never been proven.

The interesting thing about Slobodin's head injuries is that they are directly opposite each other in the temporal region.  Such injuries are unlikely to be the result of a fall, and more like a blow of some kind. 

Maybe the soft tissue damage is a red herring as it is not always obvious.  But the pathologists seam to puzzle over the lack of soft tissue damage on Thibo and I am simply reflecting their analysis.

The injuries of the rav 4 and the way in which they were inflicted are key to understanding what happened IMO.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on October 12, 2019, 05:22:13 PM
I am sorry to disappoint some people here but force of 450kg is just NOT beyond human capability. I personally know people who can deliver this amount of force with a direct punch, not to mention a kick. One well trained person with enough skill and weight around 100-120kg can cause basically all of these fractures in the matter of minutes without "superhuman" effort. As for "bigger" size of the "hands" needed to inflict the injuries, the simple explanation is gloves.

Just ask a question: if I were to replicate those injuries, what would I do? Who would be technically capable of that?

My answer is that a well trained soldier or marine can inflict these injuries.

The link below has a table at end that shows what force can be developed in combat sports. Please note that these have rules, unlike military combat.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2017/04/27/heavyweight-punch-brutal-weapon-sport/

Lots of logs laying around....  wonder what one could do with a baseball bat, or a rock.   
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 12, 2019, 05:25:07 PM
I am sorry to disappoint some people here but force of 450kg is just NOT beyond human capability. I personally know people who can deliver this amount of force with a direct punch, not to mention a kick. One well trained person with enough skill and weight around 100-120kg can cause basically all of these fractures in the matter of minutes without "superhuman" effort. As for "bigger" size of the "hands" needed to inflict the injuries, the simple explanation is gloves.

Just ask a question: if I were to replicate those injuries, what would I do? Who would be technically capable of that?

My answer is that a well trained soldier or marine can inflict these injuries.

The link below has a table at end that shows what force can be developed in combat sports. Please note that these have rules, unlike military combat.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2017/04/27/heavyweight-punch-brutal-weapon-sport/

The figures presented in the link are in pounds not kg.  The super heavy weight professional delivers a force which is only just over 450kg.  I have already researched this and stated that only at the extreme end of human capability could Thibo’s depressed fracture be caused.  Kicks and knees could also do this, but it would be a very unlikely coincidence that the shape was in exact proportion to ball of thumb.  Also no human could deliver the forces required to cause Luda and Semyon chest injuries with a single blow as they were inflicted. 

The attacker theory doesn’t explain why Kolevatov was left alive?

Regards

Star man

Yes the table is in pounds. What I am saying is that if there are (few?) people able to deliver that kind of force from a stance, it proves my point that this kind of force is NOT beyond human capability.

Please bear in mind that your calculation of 450kg is one of a static force (although I agree with your measurements in principle, to me they look mathematically correct). Secondly, they are approximate. Real number would vary from person to person. To calculate the dynamic force (more applicable if we are talking a blow), force has to be multiplied by acceleration. In other words you need less force if you deliver the blow while moving, running etc. The other thing to consider is that those measurements in combat sports were made with boxing gloves that are designed to lower the damage on the impact. The 'attacker' could have used tactical gloves which are designed to fo the exact opposite.

The "single blow" theory to explain the fractures is highly speculative itself. I explained earlier that rib fractures can be relatively easily inflicted during CPR by medial staff by repeatedly pressing the rib cage... and that happens every day. Just ask any paramedic. For this variant, much less power is needed. As for skull injuries, we have no idea what was the 'weapon' that hit the head,but we should not exclude an object in someone else's hands.

To be honest, I see not a single piece of evidence that would conceivably ruled out human involvement in the tragedy. Occam's razor tells us there is no need to include entities of questionable existence if there is a realistic explanation to the parts of the event. To put them parts together, however, is another matter. There are still questions to be asked.

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on October 12, 2019, 05:29:08 PM
Slobodin's head injury defies logic of falling down or being hit. It appears both sides of his head were equally crushed by a device, like a vice applied to his temples. The only comparison I can think of would be the movie Casino when Tony Spilatro puts a suspect into a head vice and applied pressure cracking his skull on each side. If Slobodin were hit one side and then the other, he would have had to been standing at the time of impact because either blow would have rendered him unconscious. This is a very strange injury. I think it is more strange than Lyudia's missing tongue and eyes.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 12, 2019, 05:31:29 PM


Lots of logs laying around....  wonder what one could do with a baseball bat, or a rock.

A nice heavy piece of ice would be my choice in such conditions. Perfect murder weapon never to be found after melting, no fingerprints, variable shape, probably little soft tissue damage due to thick fabric in between,no bruise hemorrhage developed due to low temperature...
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 12, 2019, 05:33:58 PM
Slobodin's head injury defies logic of falling down or being hit. It appears both sides of his head were equally crushed by a device, like a vice applied to his temples. The only comparison I can think of would be the movie Casino when Tony Spilatro puts a suspect into a head vice and applied pressure cracking his skull on each side. If Slobodin were hit one side and then the other, he would have had to been standing at the time of impact because either blow would have rendered him unconscious. This is a very strange injury. I think it is more strange than Lyudia's missing tongue and eyes.

Hit by something (piece of wood or ice?) while being held against something (another person or a tree?) ? Lying on the floor with his head on one side while being hit from above?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on October 12, 2019, 05:39:55 PM
Slobodin's head wasn't crushed on both sides ...  is was hairline fractured from one side across the top to the other.  My theory of choice is that the bloody snot froze in his nose leaving no room for expansion when his brain froze.  Why do you think water pipes crack in freezing temps?  Don't be distracted by the bruising that may have happened prior and by something different. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 12, 2019, 05:46:21 PM
Slobodin's head wasn't crushed on both sides ...  is was hairline fractured from one side across the top to the other. 

There was a fracture on one side and hemorrhage on both sides (just checked the illustration on the website). To me it looks like from pressing his head against the tree or ground and then hitting or crushing the head with a heavy piece of something.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on October 12, 2019, 05:56:18 PM
Several of them had bruising to various places on the skull including the temples.  In my opinion, the bruise in question 'may' have nothing to do with the fracture. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/7c64/b8236bb6e3be19ffaadce1be3db75a7f1809.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjJoZ-FgpjlAhVE5awKHeapDV4QFjAOegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw1m7upnILv8JhtF1pEESUnE&cshid=1570927902831
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 12, 2019, 06:06:17 PM
Several of them had bruising to various places on the skull including the temples.  In my opinion, the bruise in question 'may' have nothing to do with the fracture. 

Just on the first sight, looks like a different type of fracture. My logic is that inner pressure of liquid as a result of refrigeration would have caused a fracture at the weakest point which does not seem to be the place on Slobodin's head. That is why I lean towards a blow of a blunt object here. I cannot rule out one or another without expert opinion, though.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on October 12, 2019, 06:25:21 PM
Variables and conditions....

I would imagine the brain areas near the thin portions of the skull would start to freeze first, thus further reinforcing those areas.  It would seem to be the base of the skiskullll that cracks first, but what happens when your face down in snow with the back/base of the skull exposed to negative temps?   I can imagine a brain freezing under these circumstances from rear to front. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 13, 2019, 02:11:02 PM
I am sorry to disappoint some people here but force of 450kg is just NOT beyond human capability. I personally know people who can deliver this amount of force with a direct punch, not to mention a kick. One well trained person with enough skill and weight around 100-120kg can cause basically all of these fractures in the matter of minutes without "superhuman" effort. As for "bigger" size of the "hands" needed to inflict the injuries, the simple explanation is gloves.

Just ask a question: if I were to replicate those injuries, what would I do? Who would be technically capable of that?

My answer is that a well trained soldier or marine can inflict these injuries.

The link below has a table at end that shows what force can be developed in combat sports. Please note that these have rules, unlike military combat.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2017/04/27/heavyweight-punch-brutal-weapon-sport/

The figures presented in the link are in pounds not kg.  The super heavy weight professional delivers a force which is only just over 450kg.  I have already researched this and stated that only at the extreme end of human capability could Thibo’s depressed fracture be caused.  Kicks and knees could also do this, but it would be a very unlikely coincidence that the shape was in exact proportion to ball of thumb.  Also no human could deliver the forces required to cause Luda and Semyon chest injuries with a single blow as they were inflicted. 

The attacker theory doesn’t explain why Kolevatov was left alive?

Regards

Star man

Yes the table is in pounds. What I am saying is that if there are (few?) people able to deliver that kind of force from a stance, it proves my point that this kind of force is NOT beyond human capability.

Please bear in mind that your calculation of 450kg is one of a static force (although I agree with your measurements in principle, to me they look mathematically correct). Secondly, they are approximate. Real number would vary from person to person. To calculate the dynamic force (more applicable if we are talking a blow), force has to be multiplied by acceleration. In other words you need less force if you deliver the blow while moving, running etc. The other thing to consider is that those measurements in combat sports were made with boxing gloves that are designed to lower the damage on the impact. The 'attacker' could have used tactical gloves which are designed to fo the exact opposite.

The "single blow" theory to explain the fractures is highly speculative itself. I explained earlier that rib fractures can be relatively easily inflicted during CPR by medial staff by repeatedly pressing the rib cage... and that happens every day. Just ask any paramedic. For this variant, much less power is needed. As for skull injuries, we have no idea what was the 'weapon' that hit the head,but we should not exclude an object in someone else's hands.

To be honest, I see not a single piece of evidence that would conceivably ruled out human involvement in the tragedy. Occam's razor tells us there is no need to include entities of questionable existence if there is a realistic explanation to the parts of the event. To put them parts together, however, is another matter. There are still questions to be asked.

Gypsy, if we put the injuries to one side  - there is still a requirement to explain why Kolevatov was not dispatched in the same way?  Clearly he was alive and embraced Semyon in his final moments.  Kolevatov does not have the same significant injuries.  Why would intelligent humans not kill him in the same violent way?

Then there is Semyon's camera.  This could have had important evidence.  Why not take it?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 13, 2019, 02:13:19 PM
Slobodin's head injury defies logic of falling down or being hit. It appears both sides of his head were equally crushed by a device, like a vice applied to his temples. The only comparison I can think of would be the movie Casino when Tony Spilatro puts a suspect into a head vice and applied pressure cracking his skull on each side. If Slobodin were hit one side and then the other, he would have had to been standing at the time of impact because either blow would have rendered him unconscious. This is a very strange injury. I think it is more strange than Lyudia's missing tongue and eyes.

He could have received this blow while on the ground.  A blow to one side and his head hits the ground on the other.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 13, 2019, 03:45:12 PM


Lots of logs laying around....  wonder what one could do with a baseball bat, or a rock.

A nice heavy piece of ice would be my choice in such conditions. Perfect murder weapon never to be found after melting, no fingerprints, variable shape, probably little soft tissue damage due to thick fabric in between,no bruise hemorrhage developed due to low temperature...

The blows to the chest of Semyon and Lyuda happened while they were on the ground.  if they had been hit while they were standing then the force would have propelled them horizontally quite some distance in the same way a body would be propelled if hit by a vehicle.  We should expect to see other significant injuries if this were the case but we don't see any.  So it's more likely that they were on the ground when they received these blows. 

A very heavy flat or smooth rock between 150kg and 300kg dropped between 1 to 2 metres would be required to cause similar injuries.  It would be difficult to recreate those injuries with a log or piece of ice.  Yes blows from a piece of wood will break ribs but not 6 ribs at a time in a vertical straight line .  A single rib can take a force of about 270kg before it breaks and will absorb a lot of energy in the process.  The combined strength of 6 ribs would need a force in the region of 1.6 tonnes. Lyuda had 6 to 7 rib fractures on either side of her chest.  It's possible that the fractures could have been the result of two blows of similar force - one on each side.

For a log to create those injuries it would need to be heavy or moving very fast, but more interestingly it would need to make contact with all of the ribs that were broken which means it would have to hit the body at a very flat angle and in a vertical direction.  A person swinging a log or baton etc would not be able to hit the body at such a flat angle if they were standing over them or if the victim was standing up.   To recreate that angle with a log or baton they would have to be kneeling kind of over their feet or above their head and hit them flat on their chest.  It would require a very specific set of circumstances and a significant force, which I may need to do some calculations on.  But to be honest why would anyone kill three of the rav 4 with log or baton, spare Kolevatov the same fate and leave Semyon with a camera?  Why not just shoot them?  I suppose there is the option that Kolevatov himself used a log and killed them as an act of mercy to spare them from a slow death of freezing?  I don't think this is likely though.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 13, 2019, 04:30:47 PM

Gypsy, if we put the injuries to one side  - there is still a requirement to explain why Kolevatov was not dispatched in the same way?  Clearly he was alive and embraced Semyon in his final moments.  Kolevatov does not have the same significant injuries.  Why would intelligent humans not kill him in the same violent way?

Then there is Semyon's camera.  This could have had important evidence.  Why not take it?

Regards

Star man

I completely agree there is much more left to explain than just injuries. The variability of trauma is quite normal in open area combat and there are many techniques to inflict serious injuries. The alleged attacker obviously would not want to leave the scene looking like a 'crime scene' but rather leave the victims die due to hypothermia. Kolevatov could have been unconscious and only later he would get to Semyon. The different injuries can also be a result of a different way how they tried to defend themselves thus prompting a different reaction from the 'attacker(s)'.

My point is that we should not rule out deliberate killing of Dyatlov group. Violent attack of human(s) seems to be the common denominator of all 'technical' aspects of the case.

The motive remains unsolved, but we should look into something that explains the aftermath of the tragedy, most importantly actions of investigators and other people in charge involved in the incident. There are good theories on this forum, problem is that we don't have resources for serious verification.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on October 13, 2019, 09:53:45 PM
Regarding the camera, perhaps it was not visible at the time of the injuries, hidden by his clothing?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on October 13, 2019, 10:01:56 PM
Quote
So it's more likely that they were on the ground when they received these blows.

Or it was the impact into the ground itself i.e falling onto rocks, out of tree etc.

Also, I am not suggesting that Semyon and Lyuda were hit with a bat/log or handheld rock. I was referring to the head injuries.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 14, 2019, 03:14:38 PM
Quote
So it's more likely that they were on the ground when they received these blows.

Or it was the impact into the ground itself i.e falling onto rocks, out of tree etc.

Also, I am not suggesting that Semyon and Lyuda were hit with a bat/log or handheld rock. I was referring to the head injuries.

A fall could create the injuries, but there should be other injuries to limbs from a fall which are absent.  It very unlikely that all three would have no limb injuries.

A log or baton to Thibo's head is possible though.  But the other injuries would also need to be explained and this is not so easy.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 14, 2019, 04:02:16 PM

Gypsy, if we put the injuries to one side  - there is still a requirement to explain why Kolevatov was not dispatched in the same way?  Clearly he was alive and embraced Semyon in his final moments.  Kolevatov does not have the same significant injuries.  Why would intelligent humans not kill him in the same violent way?

Then there is Semyon's camera.  This could have had important evidence.  Why not take it?

Regards

Star man

I completely agree there is much more left to explain than just injuries. The variability of trauma is quite normal in open area combat and there are many techniques to inflict serious injuries. The alleged attacker obviously would not want to leave the scene looking like a 'crime scene' but rather leave the victims die due to hypothermia. Kolevatov could have been unconscious and only later he would get to Semyon. The different injuries can also be a result of a different way how they tried to defend themselves thus prompting a different reaction from the 'attacker(s)'.

My point is that we should not rule out deliberate killing of Dyatlov group. Violent attack of human(s) seems to be the common denominator of all 'technical' aspects of the case.

The motive remains unsolved, but we should look into something that explains the aftermath of the tragedy, most importantly actions of investigators and other people in charge involved in the incident. There are good theories on this forum, problem is that we don't have resources for serious verification.

I agree that we should not rule out a particular theory until we have conclusive evidence to the contrary.  I don't think that it is possible to rule out human attack yet, but the available evidence and pattern of events doesn't point very strongly in that direction IMO.  That doesn't mean there is no indirect human involvement either.

One thing that I will say is that thanks to your questioning approach to the injuries you may have helped provide me with another piece of evidence, or at least to exclude some options as more unlikely:

I have been looking at the injuries and the suggestion that they may have been caused by a person hitting them with a log or a club etc.  I have made some calculations around this type of attack to help put it into perspective.  If we take Lyuda's chest injuries for example.   Each or possibly even both sides of her ribs simultaneously took a single and very powerful blow.  As stated in a previous post to inflict those injuries would require a significant force with an energy in the range of 2400 joules.  The object delivering the force/energy would need to come into contact with all of the ribs fractured, or the sternum at a flat angle of no more that several degrees.  This would mean that Lyuda was almost certainly on the ground with the attacker kneeling or lowered down directly over her and the attackers body would be oriented in a vertical direction to Lyuda.  For argument sake if we say that the attacker has a club that weighs about 10kg or the equivalent of a 20ish pound sledge hammer ( which is a fairly heavy club but manageable).  Now to deliver the injury to one side of Lyuda's chest that person would have to throw the club over his head and bring it down flat onto Lyudas chest.  The person would need to apply a force in the region of 150kg to the handle end of the club accelerating it at 77m/s^2 or just under 8g applying a power of about 8.5kw over a short time of 0.3 seconds.  That's a lot of force and power.  I won't speculate at this point on whether a human is capable of doing this.  However, it would be entirely consistent with an attack from a very powerful ape like creature that would knock a person to the ground then stand over them raining down powerful blows squarely on their chest.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 15, 2019, 04:56:05 PM
  This would mean that Lyuda was almost certainly on the ground with the attacker kneeling or lowered down directly over her and the attackers body would be oriented in a vertical direction to Lyuda.  For argument sake if we say that the attacker has a club that weighs about 10kg or the equivalent of a 20ish pound sledge hammer ( which is a fairly heavy club but manageable).  Now to deliver the injury to one side of Lyuda's chest that person would have to throw the club over his head and bring it down flat onto Lyudas chest.  The person would need to apply a force in the region of 150kg to the handle end of the club accelerating it at 77m/s^2 or just under 8g applying a power of about 8.5kw over a short time of 0.3 seconds.  That's a lot of force and power.  I won't speculate at this point on whether a human is capable of doing this.  However, it would be entirely consistent with an attack from a very powerful ape like creature that would knock a person to the ground then stand over them raining down powerful blows squarely on their chest.

Regards

Star man

What about a larger object like a wooden log or a piece of ice somewhere from the ravine? An average person can quite easily lift 30-50 lilograms above their head / 2-2,2m/ and drop it onto somebody lying on the ground. That would be about 6.5m/s velocity thus dynamic force of circa 300kg which could be enough to cause rib or skull fractures (exact number would differ from person to person and can only be measured by experiment and forensic analysis).

I am lazy with calculations so I found a website that have a free fall calculator:)) https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/free-fall

Just one more point regarding the position on the ground while receiving the trauma. I would say it is easier to cause fracture to a person which is positioned against firm ground compared to standing. That is exaclty why rib fractures happen during resuscitation, the ribs have no space to extend even though they are quite flexible so they tend to break more easily. Also repeated use of force (like stomping or hammer fist) can cause rib fractures if the person is on the ground. I discussed this stuff with doctors and it should be taken into account that the force needed differs according to the position of the body (I have no specific numbers though). A hit in the rib cage of a standing person needs more power because part of that energy is 'spent' on the movement to the other side and more power is absorbed by tissue and bones if they have enaough space to stretch and extend.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 16, 2019, 12:03:03 AM
The problem is the type of injury.  If you look at Lyuda’s left rib fractures you can see that they all line up which indicates a large force over a wide area.  Even if you assume the ribs weaken from repeated compression what is the likelihood of them all failing in a straight line?  Also the flail chest on the right requires a similar amount of force but it would have to be from a single fast blow IMO.  This aligns with the thoughts of the pathologists who examined the bodies.

A dropped 50kg load even with a 300kg impact is unlikely to break all those ribs simultaneously.  A club impact as discussed would require a force of about 150kg at handle.  It’s not credible.  Anyone can try this if they want but you need to it safely if you do.  If you have take a piece of wood or let’s say a  long sledge hammer and put the top on a table.  Hold the end of the handle at arms length and now push down until you are applying 150kg of force.  First unless weigh at least 150kg you would find that your feet will lift off the floor and you would need to push your body up at arms length.  That is the force that would need to be applied consistently throughout the swing.  Obviously you will not be able to do this and I Doubt that you will be able to move your body off the ground at all .

The only way would be to lift a 150 - 300 kg bolder and drop it on them from 1 to 2 metres

Regards
Star man



Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 16, 2019, 01:58:18 AM
It could be measured in the similar way they calculate deformation in crash tests with cars and figurines... there could be a thin line between breaking and not breaking the ribs... Also we should consider the area of impact (smaller area usually inflicts more damage). I would really be interested what damage could a piece of wood do when hitting a rob cage from 2m height with the edge (considering the edge would be exactly the size that fits the pattern of the broken ribs)
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 16, 2019, 04:57:21 AM
It could be measured in the similar way they calculate deformation in crash tests with cars and figurines... there could be a thin line between breaking and not breaking the ribs... Also we should consider the area of impact (smaller area usually inflicts more damage). I would really be interested what damage could a piece of wood do when hitting a rob cage from 2m height with the edge (considering the edge would be exactly the size that fits the pattern of the broken ribs)

That ‘s a reasonable question to ask.  What difference would the cross sectional area of impact make to the required force and energy.  It would certainly increase the applied pressure at the point of impact. But it would also increase the likelihood of soft tissue damage in the same area. I probably need to think more on that one.    Don’t have much time at the moment.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 16, 2019, 08:52:55 AM
Ok here are further thoughts on this:

Decreasing the cross sectional area of any blunt instrument for any fixed amount of force increases the pressure and shear forces around the point of impact.  As the area is reduced the pressure and shear force increase asymptotically - as the edge of the blunt instrument moves from being a club to a knife edge.  At a certain point the shear force should become high enough to cause shearing/cutting of bone and eventually tissue .  It would be possible to cause the rib fractures with less overall force but - for example - if an thin iron bar were used, but in these circumstances you should also see more significant tissue damage too.  I think that Lyuda would have such tissue damage if a thinner heavy object had been used.  So again it’s more likely that the injuries were a result of heavier powerful blows .  The flail chest injury I think is stronger evidence that the blows were caused by a fast moving blunt object.  Especially since both Lyuda and Semyon both have these type of injuries.  Such injuries are usually the result of blunt force trauma .

This then takes me back to the original point that humans are not capable of delivering these injuries - even with a blunt instrument.

On the other hand, the average weight of a Silver back Gorilla is about 170kg with a typical range between 150 to 200kg.  Using its weight and power such an animal could inflict these injuries and the pattern of the injuries are consistent with a Gorilla standing over its victim raining blows down them. 

I find this kind of weird myself but the more I dig into it the more the evidence seems to point in this direction.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on October 16, 2019, 09:32:10 AM

On the slope they drop the flashlight.  If it was important enough to take why wasn't it important enough to pick up?  Haste? Panic?

At the cedar is there evidence of haste.  The clothes removed from the two Yuris for instance.  Cut from their bodies, socks scattered around the camp fire, clothes left between the ravine and the cedar.  If they were in a hurry why?  Gloves in pockets, unused socks, coats not fully buttoned up.  I'd the cold was a threat, then maybe it wasn't the only threat?  Maybe there was something else just as dangerous as the cold?

If you and I were attacked by determined killers - for example highly trained Special Forces Operators - and forced out from our tent at gunpoint, we would certainly be in a hurry too.

By the way, those who point out that the crushing of rib cages can be caused by hard blows by other humans are entirely correct. I have briefly trained jiu jitsu, and therefore have learned that trained close combat specialists can easily break rib cages with elbow strikes. Such injuries may cause massive internal bleeding and death. This is what I suppose happened to Dubinina and Zolotaryov.

There are those who cannot bring themselves to believe that the Dyatlov group members were murdered by a well-planned and intelligently executed operation designed to look like an "accicent." That is a pity, and it is also strange since it is clear that these nine were bright people who could conceivably be considered a threat to state security if they observed something they were not supposed to witness - and ever told others what they had seen. It is not unreasonable to suggest that some officials in Moscow gave the order to eliminate a possible future security risk, and that a helicopter was landed near Kholat Syakhl with a group of professional extecutors of "wet affairs." It is also possible, albeit much less likely, that some local Mansi people for some reason were incensed by the presence of the hikers in their area. Realistically, these are the two only possibilities.

The head injury of Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle that hit the side of his head is certainly not caused by any fall or any non-existent avalanche. It seems to me to be from a rifle butt, with the force of the impact being dampened by his headgear and possibly delivered by several blows in succession:

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Nikolay-Thibeaux-Brignolle-autopsy-report.png

The same can be said of the injury that was found on Rustem Slobodin. He seems to have had less protection on his head, causing the impact from the blow to be more pointed:

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Rustem-Slobodin-autopsy-report.png

Not a fall injury, not the kind of damage would expect from avalanches - besides there were no avalanches in the area.

Aleksander Kolevatov had:

"open wound behind ear, size 3x1.5 cm"
"deformed neck"

Which were not exactly the typical signs of falls or avalanches either.

We should all realize that irrespective of the identity of the killers and what their motives may have been, every piece of evidence available points to and is only consistent with the conclusion that the Dyatlov group members were in fact attacked and killed, and most importantly their attackers were human.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 16, 2019, 02:30:23 PM

On the slope they drop the flashlight.  If it was important enough to take why wasn't it important enough to pick up?  Haste? Panic?

At the cedar is there evidence of haste.  The clothes removed from the two Yuris for instance.  Cut from their bodies, socks scattered around the camp fire, clothes left between the ravine and the cedar.  If they were in a hurry why?  Gloves in pockets, unused socks, coats not fully buttoned up.  I'd the cold was a threat, then maybe it wasn't the only threat?  Maybe there was something else just as dangerous as the cold?

If you and I were attacked by determined killers - for example highly trained Special Forces Operators - and forced out from our tent at gunpoint, we would certainly be in a hurry too.

By the way, those who point out that the crushing of rib cages can be caused by hard blows by other humans are entirely correct. I have briefly trained jiu jitsu, and therefore have learned that trained close combat specialists can easily break rib cages with elbow strikes. Such injuries may cause massive internal bleeding and death. This is what I suppose happened to Dubinina and Zolotaryov.

There are those who cannot bring themselves to believe that the Dyatlov group members were murdered by a well-planned and intelligently executed operation designed to look like an "accicent." That is a pity, and it is also strange since it is clear that these nine were bright people who could conceivably be considered a threat to state security if they observed something they were not supposed to witness - and ever told others what they had seen. It is not unreasonable to suggest that some officials in Moscow gave the order to eliminate a possible future security risk, and that a helicopter was landed near Kholat Syakhl with a group of professional extecutors of "wet affairs." It is also possible, albeit much less likely, that some local Mansi people for some reason were incensed by the presence of the hikers in their area. Realistically, these are the two only possibilities.

The head injury of Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle that hit the side of his head is certainly not caused by any fall or any non-existent avalanche. It seems to me to be from a rifle butt, with the force of the impact being dampened by his headgear and possibly delivered by several blows in succession:

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Nikolay-Thibeaux-Brignolle-autopsy-report.png

The same can be said of the injury that was found on Rustem Slobodin. He seems to have had less protection on his head, causing the impact from the blow to be more pointed:

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Rustem-Slobodin-autopsy-report.png

Not a fall injury, not the kind of damage would expect from avalanches - besides there were no avalanches in the area.

Aleksander Kolevatov had:

"open wound behind ear, size 3x1.5 cm"
"deformed neck"

Which were not exactly the typical signs of falls or avalanches either.

We should all realize that irrespective of the identity of the killers and what their motives may have been, every piece of evidence available points to and is only consistent with the conclusion that the Dyatlov group members were in fact attacked and killed, and most importantly their attackers were human.

What do you think it is they might have seen on the top of that mountain in the middle of nowhere, at night ithat would have made them such a risk to national security that their murders were ordered that night and if they had seen something so important why would they leave Semyon with a camera?  Why would they leave the other cameras in the tent?

After their brutal attack the hikers would not have died immediately.  Thibo may have been unconscious but alive for several hours.  Lyuda may have lived for up to 20 minutes.  Semyon may have lived for several hours.  Kolevatov appears to have lived the longest.  Do you think the attackers would stick around and wait until they had all died?  Do you think they would have watched while Lyudas fur jacket and hat were put onto Semyon?

Why not just make them all disappear, including the tent and all their gear?  That would leave zero evidence and just one big mystery about their disappearance?  It's much cleaner and easier and far more logical.

Another possibility is if they had seen something why not make them sign non disclosure documents, in the ame way the pathologists were required to sign non disclosure documents?

One other question Lyuda left set of ribs have 6 fractures all in a single line.  How was this pattern of fractures created so linearly?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 16, 2019, 04:55:25 PM
Before continuing the "no human is capable to deliver such forces" narrative, please try to read the following document, especially the discussion section.https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297700506_Measuring_the_force_of_punches_and_kicks_among_combat_sport_athletes_using_a_modified_punching_bag_with_an_embedded_accelerometer
I will copy part of it below:

The impact
forces of delivered kicks were reported at a broad
range of 382 N to 9015 N and depended on the meas-
uring methods adopted and the type of punches and
kicks performed [4], [5], [10]–[12], [16], [17]. In box-
ers, the recorded punching forces ranged from 1990 N
to 4741 N [16], [17].
 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 17, 2019, 12:00:11 AM
Before continuing the "no human is capable to deliver such forces" narrative, please try to read the following document, especially the discussion section.https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297700506_Measuring_the_force_of_punches_and_kicks_among_combat_sport_athletes_using_a_modified_punching_bag_with_an_embedded_accelerometer
I will copy part of it below:

The impact
forces of delivered kicks were reported at a broad
range of 382 N to 9015 N and depended on the meas-
uring methods adopted and the type of punches and
kicks performed [4], [5], [10]–[12], [16], [17]. In box-
ers, the recorded punching forces ranged from 1990 N
to 4741 N [16], [17].

There is nothing really new in there Gypsy.  The upper range forces you have quoted are at the top end of what is possible by professionally trained heavy weight boxers and athletes and these are below the margin of the forces required to cause those injuries.  My estimation of the force required to cause Lyuda’s chest injuries is about 16000N - roughly 270kg per rib.  Expert knowledge of the forces required for such injuries would help.  My estimate is based on the forces required to break 6 ribs simultaneously which is what the injuries appear to be.  It also appears that the force required to cause the injury to Lyuda ‘s left and right ribs is about the same.  And for Semyon.

Regards
Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 17, 2019, 05:57:36 PM
Isn't the whole incident at the top of range of what is possible in real world? On the balance of probability, I pretty much lean towards close combat trained people as opposed to humanoid apes. There is absolutely nothing weird about the existence of elite soldiers. The problematic part is their presence at given time and place.. And ofcourse them being responsible for the death of 9 people. No need to bring apes, yetis or any other entities with questionable existence to realistic explanation in my opinion.

Arguments in favour of the trained soldiers, not apes :

humans can erase the the traces

more consistent with the government response and cover-up

different "technical" COD, the animals are more likely to use the same technique, usually leave bites or scratches

would explain the "fire orbs", in other words there could have been something that triggered the engagement of Soviet "specnaz", e.g. something appeared on the radar or the military intercepted unsolicited communication in the vicinity of Kholat Syakhil

Arguments in favour of the apes /yetis, not soldiers /close combat trained individuals :

... Don't know but feel free to add them, I want to keep this discussion open-minded.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 17, 2019, 11:47:53 PM
Isn't the whole incident at the top of range of what is possible in real world? On the balance of probability, I pretty much lean towards close combat trained people as opposed to humanoid apes. There is absolutely nothing weird about the existence of elite soldiers. The problematic part is their presence at given time and place.. And ofcourse them being responsible for the death of 9 people. No need to bring apes, yetis or any other entities with questionable existence to realistic explanation in my opinion.

Arguments in favour of the trained soldiers, not apes :

humans can erase the the traces

more consistent with the government response and cover-up

different "technical" COD, the animals are more likely to use the same technique, usually leave bites or scratches

would explain the "fire orbs", in other words there could have been something that triggered the engagement of Soviet "specnaz", e.g. something appeared on the radar or the military intercepted unsolicited communication in the vicinity of Kholat Syakhil

Arguments in favour of the apes /yetis, not soldiers /close combat trained individuals :

... Don't know but feel free to add them, I want to keep this discussion open-minded.

The problem with the military human attack is that apart from the injuries Being akin to massive blunt force trauma.  The whole pattern of events does not logically fit together.  Nothing was taken from them.  The cameras in particular could have had evidence on it.  There is no motive for the attack.  It would have been much cleaner and more logical to just make them all disappear including the tent and their gear.  Leave no evidence and just one big mystery about their disappearance.  Even the attack on the rav four is inconsistent with specialists taking them out.  Semyon and Kolevatov could have lived for several hours after sustained those injuries.  Why would they not just finish them off with a few extra blows to the ribs or head?  I doubt they would want to stick around for several hours in the freezing cold just to watch them slowly die.  None of it makes sense.  It’s not just the injuries.

I have already described the evidence that supports an ape like attack.  Apes were used to test the effects of military weapons.  Maybe it was some apes that had been released from an exotic pet owner or a circus or zoo, but that probably would not justify burying the bodies in zinc coffins.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Semyon's last pictures...
Post by: jarrfan on October 18, 2019, 10:56:57 AM
The two pictures of lights, one not so clear and another of a blast of light are questionable as to what they could be. The one of the blast you can see 3 head shapes at the bottom so it appears it was taken with people standing in front of Semyon as he took the picture. The one picture that Semyon took with the blurry lights could have been from his camera as he was in the ravine, left to die and it may be a picture of someone walking up the hill with a lantern or flashlight that did not capture anything but the lantern moving. He may have thought taking the picture would give the world the information needed to figure out how they died. He may have had the camera around his neck hidden and as the attackers were walking away back up the hill, he snapped it hoping it would show more than it did.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 18, 2019, 02:31:28 PM
Semyon may well have taken some photographs that presented the cause of their demise.  But I don't think there is any useful information that could be extracted from them as they very damaged.  Also there is speculation that 9 of the negatives went missing.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 18, 2019, 03:13:31 PM
I want to present some further thoughts on the tent and the cuts that were made from the inside.  There were only three cuts that appeared to have been made from inside the tent.  Two of them were very small and one was about 86cm.  From what I can tell (happy to be corrected on this) the cuts appear to be near the entrance of the tent on The down side of the slope.  There were also reports of tears and holes in the tent with one of Dyatlov's jackets stuffed into the hole.

My first question is if the hikers were trying to make an exit to escape the tent why make three cuts, and why stuff a jacket into an already existing hole or tear?  Clearly they could not have made those cuts in order to try to escape the tent?  The only cut that was big enough to escape through would have been the 86cm cut.  Also the cuts were very close to the entrance which was still standing albeit covered in a new build up of snow when the tent was found.  So it would more likely be easier to leave through the entrance than cut a hole in the tent given the proximity of the cuts to the entrance.

My second question is if the cuts were not made as a means to try and escape from the tent why were they made at all?  I can't remember who stated this on the forum, but they said that if there were wolves or a wild animal outside the tent the last thing you would do is go outside and leave the tent.  So maybe this could be close to what did actually happen.  In this scenario, the cuts were not made to escape the tent, they were made to defend the tent and the hikers inside, from whatever it was that was outside?  The hikers tried to slash at whatever it was through the tent.  Said thing may have been pushing on the tent or attacking them from outside.  If the attacker damaged part of the tent then it would make sense to try and cover the hole by pushing a jacket into it.  Now it may be that all this happened very quickly and with little warning creating a panic within the tent.  As the tent became more damaged and torn during the attack, the hikers had no choice but to flee, taking only those things they already had in their hands and on the clothing they were wearing in the tent.  It's possible that some had time to grab a few extra items of clothing.  The jacket and sneakers found about 10 metres from the tent may have been dropped during a frantic escape from the camp site?

Could the attackers have been human?  Unlikely, as staying in the tent would not be an effective strategy against intelligent humans who would be familiar with tents.  Stuffing a jacket into a hole would also be an unlikely deterrent for humans.  But it would be a likely set of events if the attacker were an animal of some kind.  Like an ape type creature?

One possibility is that humans attacked them and destroyed the tent after forcing the hikers out.  If this were true why would the human attacker stuff Dyatlovs jacket in one of the holes they had made!

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on October 18, 2019, 05:35:01 PM
Dear Starman: What I gathered from reading Mihail Shavarin's latest testimony 2007 was that the tent was cut open with an ice ax by him and another searcher when they found the tent to see if there was anyone in there. The two big cuts were made by them looking for a person, or body. So that leaves the 3 small cuts made from the inside. The only purpose for these cuts would be to see what is outside the tent either by noise, voice or light. whatever it was they did not hesitate and left the tent either as directed or scared beyond their limits. For me, I am weak on the Yeti theory but do not count it out.

With Semyon's fake cap tooth, it makes me think he was some sort of a spy either for Russia or against Russia and they wanted him taken out. Perhaps the middle of the Urals was the place to do that. Dentists don't put a fake cap on a root as a normal practice. If he were a spy, that might have been a poison capsule he carried in his mouth and so as to not accidentally bite it, it was hidden under the fake tooth. He may have used it as he was dying for all we know. The only way to know for sure would to be to exhume  the body again and check the area of the mouth for traces of poison. As I have stated, the Nazi's used this tactic and one used it in prison for his own demise. There is still speculation as to whether he was related to the one person in his family tree, and apparently the results were either negative or inconclusive.

Best regards...

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on October 18, 2019, 05:51:26 PM
I am going to throw this out there too: The picture with the 3 heads in the front, that means Semyon was standing behind these 3 individuals perhaps trying to hide in the group and he snapped the picture thinking he might capture the attackers forms but as he took the picture, someone flashed a light at him. Just another thought about the pictures.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 19, 2019, 02:33:25 PM
Dear Starman: What I gathered from reading Mihail Shavarin's latest testimony 2007 was that the tent was cut open with an ice ax by him and another searcher when they found the tent to see if there was anyone in there. The two big cuts were made by them looking for a person, or body. So that leaves the 3 small cuts made from the inside. The only purpose for these cuts would be to see what is outside the tent either by noise, voice or light. whatever it was they did not hesitate and left the tent either as directed or scared beyond their limits. For me, I am weak on the Yeti theory but do not count it out.

With Semyon's fake cap tooth, it makes me think he was some sort of a spy either for Russia or against Russia and they wanted him taken out. Perhaps the middle of the Urals was the place to do that. Dentists don't put a fake cap on a root as a normal practice. If he were a spy, that might have been a poison capsule he carried in his mouth and so as to not accidentally bite it, it was hidden under the fake tooth. He may have used it as he was dying for all we know. The only way to know for sure would to be to exhume  the body again and check the area of the mouth for traces of poison. As I have stated, the Nazi's used this tactic and one used it in prison for his own demise. There is still speculation as to whether he was related to the one person in his family tree, and apparently the results were either negative or inconclusive.

Best regards...

There is a high probability that the tent was subject to additional damage during its recovery, but the three cuts from the inside and the hole with the jacket in were unlikely to be made by the search and rescue team.  So on that basis the questions I asked and the proposed explanation still stand.

I'm not as familiar with Semyon's hollow crown, or why he had it or what it's intended use was for.  It's interesting though.  Whatever it was for I doubt that he used it that night to end his life.  He tried to survive.  I suppose if it was a cyanide cap then he could have used it in the final moments to try and end the pain.  If someone wanted Semyon dead though I very much doubt that they would wait until he was in one of the most inhospitable and difficult to get to areas.  It would be much easier to arrange for his demise closer to civilisation.

 Think about it. 

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 19, 2019, 02:42:22 PM
I am going to throw this out there too: The picture with the 3 heads in the front, that means Semyon was standing behind these 3 individuals perhaps trying to hide in the group and he snapped the picture thinking he might capture the attackers forms but as he took the picture, someone flashed a light at him. Just another thought about the pictures.

If I remember right, Loose Cannon presented another photo that showed that the three heads photo is actually a very small section of one Semyon's pics that had been blown up rather than a pic of three heads.  it's been manipulated.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 25, 2019, 04:01:10 PM
Some more thoughts on the tent and why human involvement is unlikely.

The scene in the tent when it was found was very orderly.  It appears that nothing was taken from the tent.  Apart from the shoes to the left of the entrance, which are described as uncharacteristically untidy, the rest of the contents appears orderly.  If human attackers had been there, what are the chances that they would leave everything in the tent as it was when the hikers left?  Even if they had searched the tent and took nothing, the scene in the tent would be more chaotic.  It appears that no person or animal had entered the tent?  If humans had been there I really don't think that they would not have at least searched the tent.  Of course it is possible that the tent was searched and the searchers tidied up after themselves?  But it's very very unlikely. - because they didn't tidy the boots up.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 25, 2019, 04:32:24 PM
I think the whole "tent scene" is just inconclusive. If there was another person (or more), they could have taken something without turning the place upside down...we just don't know as the whole operation was not according to basic forensic or investigation standards. The search party was scrambled kind of hastily so it is understandable that there was no strict procedure how to handle the evidence. We probably don't even have a full inventory list - I would wonder what "tins and wires" mentioned in radioigrams or "Kolevatov's device" from Zina's diary was. Not to mention toxicology report that is omitted from the known case files completely.

I previously asked about what speakt in favour of "ape" attack as opposed to human involvement. Maybe I should rephrase the question. My general understanding is that humans have more capabilities and more variability in combat. Animals have rather consistent pattern of behaviour when facing danger. So the question stands: Is there anything that an ape would be capable of, but human atacker wouldn't? Then  there is a question of traces...I doubt that ape(s) wandering around would not gain attention sooner or later, people can just fly away with a helicopter. In the end if we exclude presence of both other humans or animals, that leaves us with a version that involves violence among the members of Dyatlov group. However, there people did not seem to be capable of such a strong violence...unless somebody went psycho a smashed Tibo's skull with a 60lb piese of ice a threw it into the ravine... because I do not see a 'murder weapon' accounted for either.

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on October 25, 2019, 09:43:53 PM
I would refer you to the Mihail Sharavin testimony that claims when they found the tent on the  first search, he and another searcher took the ice ax and made a hole in the tent to see if anyone was in there, i.e., one of the hikers possibly alive or deceased. They said the tent contents were catalogued and made note of. So I don't believe anyone or anything entered the tent after the hikers died or were driven from the tent. I believe they were separated by the government military and questioned, beaten each group as they were separated. The attackers huddled together figuring out the statements from the hikers, the  first 5 that were found. As the ravine 4 were building the den, they realized their comrades were murdered and one of them snuck up the cedar and removed clothing still not certain they would be killed, hoping they might be able to survive because they knew they were innocent but the attackers decided they all needed to die and beat and shoved the last 4 into the ravine and that is how their injuries were so much worse.

That is the only explanation I can come up with at this time. It could have been a Yeti but unless it tracked all 3 groups down separately I don't know how that would be possible, but it is still feasible.

Regards, Jarrfan
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 26, 2019, 05:01:31 PM
I think the whole "tent scene" is just inconclusive. If there was another person (or more), they could have taken something without turning the place upside down...we just don't know as the whole operation was not according to basic forensic or investigation standards. The search party was scrambled kind of hastily so it is understandable that there was no strict procedure how to handle the evidence. We probably don't even have a full inventory list - I would wonder what "tins and wires" mentioned in radioigrams or "Kolevatov's device" from Zina's diary was. Not to mention toxicology report that is omitted from the known case files completely.

I previously asked about what speakt in favour of "ape" attack as opposed to human involvement. Maybe I should rephrase the question. My general understanding is that humans have more capabilities and more variability in combat. Animals have rather consistent pattern of behaviour when facing danger. So the question stands: Is there anything that an ape would be capable of, but human atacker wouldn't? Then  there is a question of traces...I doubt that ape(s) wandering around would not gain attention sooner or later, people can just fly away with a helicopter. In the end if we exclude presence of both other humans or animals, that leaves us with a version that involves violence among the members of Dyatlov group. However, there people did not seem to be capable of such a strong violence...unless somebody went psycho a smashed Tibo's skull with a 60lb piese of ice a threw it into the ravine... because I do not see a 'murder weapon' accounted for either.

You're right.  The whole tent scene is a bit messed up in terms of preserving evidence.  However, there are many key things that I think can be taken as useful evidence, including some of the witness statements.  In particular the following:

1. The three cuts made from the inside of the tent
2. The description of the layout of items in the tent
3. The listed inventory of the tent
4. The jacket and sneakers found several metres from the tent
5. Dyatlov's jacket stuffed in a hole in the side of tent.

even things that may seem simple and uninteresting are IMO of potentially key importance.  For instance the cuts made from inside the tent.  It has often been said/implied and a mental image created within the case files info that the Dyatlov group were so terrified that cut their way out of the tent to escape.  But when you consider the cuts in detail it is unlikely that this was ghe reason for the cuts.  Firstly, two of the cuts are quite small and not big enough to escape the tent.  The largest cut is 89cm which is probably big enough to escape through.  But if you were cutting a hole to escape then once your knife had penetrated the fabric of the tent you would not withdraw it after only 33cm and start a new hole.  You would continue to cut the fabric until the hole was big enough to escape through.  Also these cuts were near the entrance which was still standing  and probably not covered in snow at the time.  It would be far easier to escape through the entrance.  One other thing, if you were trying to escape to the tent by cutting a hole in it, then you would not try to block up another hole with your jacket.  That leaves me wondering then why they were cutting the tent from the inside?  The only thing that I can think of is that they were trying to defend the tent and themselves from something outside, by thrusting the knife at something through the tent.  Using a knife to lash out at a trained team of armed military officers is unlikely to be an effective strategy against them.  So if there were military outside, I doubt that they would have even engaged in such a form of defence.  However, such a defence might be something that you would try if there was some kind of animal/beast outside.  Another possibility is that something drove them to behave irrationally.  Drugs, food poisoning, altitude sickness etc.  when you then consider the fact that nothing was taken from the tent that we know of, the tent contents were left in a relatively orderly way, the cameras were left in the tent, diaries were left in the tent,  whilst the hikers left with a camera (subsequently not removed either), matches, at least one knife, a flashlight then it presents a picture that is very unlikely to have involved other human beings.

On the subject of ape or ape like creature, such an animal would be capable of inflicting all of the injuries with sufficient force to cause the straight line fractures and flail chest injuries.  Thibo's depressed fracture is actually the same shape as a ball of a thumb that belonged to hand 30cm long.  This is about the size of an ape hand and the lengthnof the bruise of Zina's side.  An ape could generate sufficient force to crush Thibo's skull as we see in the autopsy report.  It's interesting that you say that an ape or animal is more likely to apply a consistent technique in its attack, because there is a consistent pattern to the attacks.  Two flail chest injuries and two fractured skull injuries.  The injuries are consistent with being knocked to the ground and hit with powerful blows.  It's clear that the chest injuries were received while Lyuda and Semyon were on the ground.  This is based on the angle that such a blow would have to come from.  It is possible that all of the injuries came from falls, but the lack of associated injuries to limbs and other body parts is very unlikely.  It's also unlikely that all three would have fallen simultaneously and received very similar injuries each of similar force.

Could a human inflict these injuries?  IMO its very unlikely.  More interestingly, why would they do it that way and not just shoot or stab them?  It could not have been to avoid suspicion, because there is nothing more suspicious than the injuries of the rav 4.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 26, 2019, 05:04:42 PM
I would refer you to the Mihail Sharavin testimony that claims when they found the tent on the  first search, he and another searcher took the ice ax and made a hole in the tent to see if anyone was in there, i.e., one of the hikers possibly alive or deceased. They said the tent contents were catalogued and made note of. So I don't believe anyone or anything entered the tent after the hikers died or were driven from the tent. I believe they were separated by the government military and questioned, beaten each group as they were separated. The attackers huddled together figuring out the statements from the hikers, the  first 5 that were found. As the ravine 4 were building the den, they realized their comrades were murdered and one of them snuck up the cedar and removed clothing still not certain they would be killed, hoping they might be able to survive because they knew they were innocent but the attackers decided they all needed to die and beat and shoved the last 4 into the ravine and that is how their injuries were so much worse.

That is the only explanation I can come up with at this time. It could have been a Yeti but unless it tracked all 3 groups down separately I don't know how that would be possible, but it is still feasible.

Regards, Jarrfan

Hi Jarrfan,

Have a look at the previous post I have made above.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Spygirl 1 on October 26, 2019, 05:16:52 PM
I would refer you to the Mihail Sharavin testimony that claims when they found the tent on the  first search, he and another searcher took the ice ax and made a hole in the tent to see if anyone was in there, i.e., one of the hikers possibly alive or deceased. They said the tent contents were catalogued and made note of. So I don't believe anyone or anything entered the tent after the hikers died or were driven from the tent. I believe they were separated by the government military and questioned, beaten each group as they were separated. The attackers huddled together figuring out the statements from the hikers, the  first 5 that were found. As the ravine 4 were building the den, they realized their comrades were murdered and one of them snuck up the cedar and removed clothing still not certain they would be killed, hoping they might be able to survive because they knew they were innocent but the attackers decided they all needed to die and beat and shoved the last 4 into the ravine and that is how their injuries were so much worse.

That is the only explanation I can come up with at this time. It could have been a Yeti but unless it tracked all 3 groups down separately I don't know how that would be possible, but it is still feasible.

Regards, Jarrfan
11
Hi Jarrfan,

Have a look at the previous post I have made above.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on October 27, 2019, 09:57:44 AM
Thanks Starman, I will take a look again.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 06, 2019, 03:55:02 PM
The link below is to a paper produced by the Sasquatch Genome Project.  I don't think that it has been widely accepted by the scientific community yet.  But it is certainly interesting.  What I found particularly interesting is that not only does it hypothesise the existence of Sasquatch, the DNA sequencing and analysis provides a possible explanation for the origin of the species (if it can be called a species as such).  The results suggest that of the many samples collected and tested they all contained consistent "human" mitochondrial DNA, while the nuclear DNA contained both human sequences and novel sequences and sequences consistent with primate DNA.

Mitochondrial DNA is only passed down from the female, while the nuclear DNA is a mixture of both male parent and female parent DNA? 

What the paper and DNA results suggest is that the samples tested are very likely to be hybrids.  This means that at some time during human history a female human has mated with a primate and had viable offspring.  Interestingly all the mitochondrial DNA is human, suggesting that the original hybrid did not go on to breed with further primates, but likely did mate with further human females. Weird.  Such a hybrid species could have come into existence in relatively recent history.  It means that if the report is genuine and eventually accepted that Sasquatch is a species that has not evolved along the normal tree of life but just appeared suddenly.

This could be evidence of the existence of big foot, or Yeti etc which may have relevance to the dpi and the theories and ideas presented in this thread.  Some interesting light reading anyway.

Regards

Star man

http://sasquatchgenomeproject.org/linked/novel-north-american-hominins-final-pdf-download.pdf
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on November 06, 2019, 09:14:04 PM
I don't negate the Yeti or UFO's at this point. The Yeti has been folklore in some areas but there are documented cases in the 1700's and 1800's in the US when it was first being settled. The cases seem the same as the ones that emerge today. An out of way camera placed in a ravine caught a picture of a feline that was allegedly determined to be extinct for hundreds of years.

The possibility of a primate/human breeding does not appear possible to my knowledge. Now, as far as the Neanderthal and the Denisovans is more feasible. There is a small amount of proof of the Denisovan but enough DNA to relate it to Neanderthal.

As far as Neanderthal and human breeding, apparently they did. But the male had to be a modern human and the female had to be a Neanderthal because a human female could not carry a Neanderthal child because of the size of the head and bones. Neanderthal bones were extremely thick and heavy which gave them much strength.

Jarrfan



Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 06, 2019, 11:46:31 PM
Hi Jarrfan.  The Big Foot Genome report above is supposed to have analysed a sample from a Sasquatch that they captured on video.  They sequenced the gene for hair colour and found it was human red hair gene.  The animal they recorded had red hair.

I can’t comment on the authenticity of the work or exactly on the origins of the species if the work is authentic.  But the report is there in black and white along with the supplemtary information and they claim to have 3 terabytes of recorded complete genome sequences.  3 complete separate genomes.  They will also have the original samples.  That should be enough data to independently evaluate and peer review the work they have done.  They say that there is such a massive stigma around the suspect that nobody wants to touch it.  They themselves are calling it the Galileo effect. 

So it sounds like there is an opportunity there to either prove the work or the conclusion incorrect - or to make scientific history.

I think Darwin had similar problems when he first proposed that humans had evolved from apes.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 08, 2019, 05:00:41 AM
Is this a potential scenario for the dpi?

One or more Sasquatch/yeti whatever you want to call them approach the tent out of curiosity and maybe to assess if the hikers are a threat.  They keep their distance.  One of the hikers (Semyon/Thibo),  go outside to relieve themselves and spot them in the beam of their flashlight.  They go back into the tent and warn the others.  Maybe they even make fun of him and enter a comment in The Evening Otorten.  The Yeti come closer to the tent and maybe start throwing snow at them in an attempt to persuade them to move away from their territory.  The hikers panic thinking that lives are at risk and leave the tent heading down the slope.  The yeti follow them keeping their distance and keeping an eye on them as they may be a threat to their family. 

At some point the hikers attack them or throw things at them triggering a protective and defensive response which results in the injuries of the rav 4.  Dyatlov Rustem and Zina head back to the tent but never make it.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Spygirl 1 on November 09, 2019, 09:02:40 AM
Is this a potential scenario for the dpi?

One or more Sasquatch/yeti whatever you want to call them approach the tent out of curiosity and maybe to assess if the hikers are a threat.  They keep their distance.  One of the hikers (Semyon/Thibo),  go outside to relieve themselves and spot them in the beam of their flashlight.  They go back into the tent and warn the others.  Maybe they even make fun of him and enter a comment in The Evening Otorten.  The Yeti come closer to the tent and maybe start throwing snow at them in an attempt to persuade them to move away from their territory.  The hikers panic thinking that lives are at risk and leave the tent heading down the slope.  The yeti follow them keeping their distance and keeping an eye on them as they may be a threat to their family. 

At some point the hikers attack them or throw things at them triggering a protective and defensive response which results in the injuries of the rav 4.  Dyatlov Rustem and Zina head back to the tent but never make it.

Regards

Star man

THIS IS NOT THE SASQUATCH DEFINITIVE PROOF I'M REFERRING TO IN PREVIOUS POST!!!

I REPEAT:
THIS IS NOT THE SASQUATCH DEFINITIVE PROOF I'M REFERRING TO IN PREVIOUS POST!!!
(I'll post that later as its kinda lengthy).

Simply just adding to the conversation about Yeti/Menk theory.

So.......

Many US Native American tribes have always been gender neutral or matriarchal. Many tribes also pass their tribal positions from one generation to the next.

This was the case with my Native American friend Rebecca. She was a Medicine Woman of the Kiowa Tribe. Her lineage had been so for many generations.

The US government is rather lenient in allowing certain otherwise illegal items for continued use in Native American practices.

Rebecca is rather elderly. She asked if I would drive her 3-4 hours away.  She had a particular cedar box made to refurbish a bald eagle wing. The wing itself has been passed down for many years used in Kiowa medicinal healing.

She also told me it would be an overnight stay.

I was happy to help out so I drove her......but she failed to tell me we were picking up the box at a BIGFOOT CONVENTION!!!! I swear I had no idea!

The convention was quite an experience.

There were many self- proclaimed scientists/researchers/fanatics. Guessing there was approximately 200 people there when we arrived.

These folks used the terms Sasquatch/Bigfoot interchangeably as I will do here.

Although I was skeptical as any one else I did listen but all was taken with a grain of salt.

Over & over I heard the same thing from this gathering of Sasquatch enthusiasts (their collective thoughts, not mine):

According to them no Sasquatch has ever been caught because they have ability to "sizzle" humans.

They explained that like other animals who have defensive measures ( a skunk who sprays or a rattlesnake rattles) Bigfoot sizzles.

What is a sizzle? If Sasquatch feels threatened or space being invaded they have ability to stare down a predator (human)  Their "telekinesis" sends some sort of energy to humans.

The way it was explained made me think of Superman shooting beams from his eyes to use his x-ray vision.

So with this sizzle energy the human(s) suddenly becomes terrified - hair standing up on back of the neck,  horribly nauseous, the worst migraine ever, etc. It is sheer panic & horror.

The sudden & severe onset of symptoms makes humans flee for safety & away from them.

According to these folks the more of a bad-a$$ some Bigfoot hunter thinks they are the worse they get sizzled!

It also seemed to be a collective mindset that Bigfoot does get curious about humans & want to investigate in the majority of encounters.  That's it-- they are just simply curious.

In  other encounters with humans where there is a raging, screaming Bigfoot is because they feel threatened or they are very ill &/or in pain.

Also of this group's collective belief (don't ask me how they would know)  is Sasquatch
live in family units.

With the DPI anything is possible. Because there is 3 distinctive areas it would seem more than 1 Yeti/Menk would have to be involved.

IMO if Yeti's were involved there would be a a number of scenarios with these 3 components:
1) DPI 9
2) Yeti(s)
3) Miltary "something"

I certainly do NOT believe these hikers were sleeping quietly in the tent & some Yeti(s) became maniacal monsters.

Again-- just food for thought

Happy Trails-
Spygirl 1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 09, 2019, 03:36:50 PM
Is this a potential scenario for the dpi?

One or more Sasquatch/yeti whatever you want to call them approach the tent out of curiosity and maybe to assess if the hikers are a threat.  They keep their distance.  One of the hikers (Semyon/Thibo),  go outside to relieve themselves and spot them in the beam of their flashlight.  They go back into the tent and warn the others.  Maybe they even make fun of him and enter a comment in The Evening Otorten.  The Yeti come closer to the tent and maybe start throwing snow at them in an attempt to persuade them to move away from their territory.  The hikers panic thinking that lives are at risk and leave the tent heading down the slope.  The yeti follow them keeping their distance and keeping an eye on them as they may be a threat to their family. 

At some point the hikers attack them or throw things at them triggering a protective and defensive response which results in the injuries of the rav 4.  Dyatlov Rustem and Zina head back to the tent but never make it.

Regards

Star man

THIS IS NOT THE SASQUATCH DEFINITIVE PROOF I'M REFERRING TO IN PREVIOUS POST!!!

I REPEAT:
THIS IS NOT THE SASQUATCH DEFINITIVE PROOF I'M REFERRING TO IN PREVIOUS POST!!!
(I'll post that later as its kinda lengthy).

Simply just adding to the conversation about Yeti/Menk theory.

So.......

Many US Native American tribes have always been gender neutral or matriarchal. Many tribes also pass their tribal positions from one generation to the next.

This was the case with my Native American friend Rebecca. She was a Medicine Woman of the Kiowa Tribe. Her lineage had been so for many generations.

The US government is rather lenient in allowing certain otherwise illegal items for continued use in Native American practices.

Rebecca is rather elderly. She asked if I would drive her 3-4 hours away.  She had a particular cedar box made to refurbish a bald eagle wing. The wing itself has been passed down for many years used in Kiowa medicinal healing.

She also told me it would be an overnight stay.

I was happy to help out so I drove her......but she failed to tell me we were picking up the box at a BIGFOOT CONVENTION!!!! I swear I had no idea!

The convention was quite an experience.

There were many self- proclaimed scientists/researchers/fanatics. Guessing there was approximately 200 people there when we arrived.

These folks used the terms Sasquatch/Bigfoot interchangeably as I will do here.

Although I was skeptical as any one else I did listen but all was taken with a grain of salt.

Over & over I heard the same thing from this gathering of Sasquatch enthusiasts (their collective thoughts, not mine):

According to them no Sasquatch has ever been caught because they have ability to "sizzle" humans.

They explained that like other animals who have defensive measures ( a skunk who sprays or a rattlesnake rattles) Bigfoot sizzles.

What is a sizzle? If Sasquatch feels threatened or space being invaded they have ability to stare down a predator (human)  Their "telekinesis" sends some sort of energy to humans.

The way it was explained made me think of Superman shooting beams from his eyes to use his x-ray vision.

So with this sizzle energy the human(s) suddenly becomes terrified - hair standing up on back of the neck,  horribly nauseous, the worst migraine ever, etc. It is sheer panic & horror.

The sudden & severe onset of symptoms makes humans flee for safety & away from them.

According to these folks the more of a bad-a$$ some Bigfoot hunter thinks they are the worse they get sizzled!

It also seemed to be a collective mindset that Bigfoot does get curious about humans & want to investigate in the majority of encounters.  That's it-- they are just simply curious.

In  other encounters with humans where there is a raging, screaming Bigfoot is because they feel threatened or they are very ill &/or in pain.

Also of this group's collective belief (don't ask me how they would know)  is Sasquatch
live in family units.

With the DPI anything is possible. Because there is 3 distinctive areas it would seem more than 1 Yeti/Menk would have to be involved.

IMO if Yeti's were involved there would be a a number of scenarios with these 3 components:
1) DPI 9
2) Yeti(s)
3) Miltary "something"

I certainly do NOT believe these hikers were sleeping quietly in the tent & some Yeti(s) became maniacal monsters.

Again-- just food for thought

Happy Trails-
Spygirl 1

Thank you for the story about the convention.  Whether or not a Sasquatch has the telepathic ability to sizzle I think if I saw one staring at me while I was in the middle of nowhere it would probably have the same effect as a sizzle anyway.   

Definitive proof would be very useful to support the Yeti hypothesis.  The Sasquatch genome project and the report they have produced is quite convincing and the researchers seem genuine.  They claim to have the data just waiting to be peer reviewed and their manuscript published.

For the dpi if one of the hikers went outside and saw one of these creatures I am sure he would have been very scared and spooked.  I can't help but wonder what the others would have thought when he first warned them?  Would they think he playing a prank and trying to scare them?  If more of them went outside and saw the Yeti  - how would that then play out?  What would happen if the hikers showed signs of aggression toward the creatures?  Would that trigger an aggressive response from them?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on November 10, 2019, 08:31:06 AM


Thank you for the story about the convention.  Whether or not a Sasquatch has the telepathic ability to sizzle I think if I saw one staring at me while I was in the middle of nowhere it would probably have the same effect as a sizzle anyway.   

Definitive proof would be very useful to support the Yeti hypothesis.  The Sasquatch genome project and the report they have produced is quite convincing and the researchers seem genuine.  They claim to have the data just waiting to be peer reviewed and their manuscript published.

For the dpi if one of the hikers went outside and saw one of these creatures I am sure he would have been very scared and spooked.  I can't help but wonder what the others would have thought when he first warned them?  Would they think he playing a prank and trying to scare them?  If more of them went outside and saw the Yeti  - how would that then play out?  What would happen if the hikers showed signs of aggression toward the creatures?  Would that trigger an aggressive response from them?

Regards

Star man
[/quote]

 [[  What would happen if the hikers showed signs of aggression toward the creatures?  Would that trigger an aggressive response from them? ]] I have often pondered that one. I think the answer is YES.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 10, 2019, 02:38:16 PM
When humans are scared it is natural for them to become defensive and sometimes aggressive in response.  That may have been taken as a threat and triggered a reciprocal response.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 11, 2019, 08:47:50 AM
The cuts made in the tent.  Currently there is an interesting discussion going on another thread that suggests that the three cuts were made through the seams of the tent and that such action would have taken a slow deliberate sawing motion.  The cuts may have been smaller when made and later elongated by the wind and or recovery of the tent.  If they were smaller then it is unlikely that they were made as a means of escape.  Also, it would be unlikely that they were made to make the tent unusable.  So what were they made for?  The hikers would not have made cuts in the tent lightly as it was their life boat. 

So could the cuts have been made to look outside to check on some kind of threat that they knew was there? 

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on November 11, 2019, 12:47:30 PM
The cuts made in the tent.  Currently there is an interesting discussion going on another thread that suggests that the three cuts were leaders through the seams of the tent and that such action would have taken a slow deliberate sawing motion.  The cuts may have been smaller when made and later elongated by the wind and or recovery of the tent.  If they were smaller then it is unlikely that they were made as a means of escape.  Also, it would be unlikely that they were made to make the tent unusable.  So what were they made for?  The hikers would not have made cuts in the tent lightly as it was their life boat. 

So could the cuts have been made to look outside to check on some kind of threat that they knew was there? 

Regards

Star man

Well I have never been that convinced about the so called Cuts   !  ?  What if they were made by something slashing at the Tent from the outside  !  ?  After all there are so many ponderables in this Dyatlov Mystery.  Who is to say that the person who examined the Tent wasnt told to say that the cuts came from the inside or perhaps they made a mistake in their examination.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 11, 2019, 01:33:34 PM
The cuts made in the tent.  Currently there is an interesting discussion going on another thread that suggests that the three cuts were leaders through the seams of the tent and that such action would have taken a slow deliberate sawing motion.  The cuts may have been smaller when made and later elongated by the wind and or recovery of the tent.  If they were smaller then it is unlikely that they were made as a means of escape.  Also, it would be unlikely that they were made to make the tent unusable.  So what were they made for?  The hikers would not have made cuts in the tent lightly as it was their life boat. 

So could the cuts have been made to look outside to check on some kind of threat that they knew was there? 

Regards

Star man

Well I have never been that convinced about the so called Cuts   !  ?  What if they were made by something slashing at the Tent from the outside  !  ?  After all there are so many ponderables in this Dyatlov Mystery.  Who is to say that the person who examined the Tent wasnt told to say that the cuts came from the inside or perhaps they made a mistake in their examination.

Where the cuts are made from the inside there was suppose to be scratch marks made before the sharp implement (presumably a knife) penetrated the fabric.  That's why they attributed three of the holes in the tent to cuts from the inside.  Also it's unlikely that a slashing action could have cut through the seams - based on Jarrfan's posts, and when you think about it it kind of makes sense.  You would need a sawing cutting motion to cut the thicker tougher seams

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on November 11, 2019, 03:37:12 PM
SaraPuk: The cuts were identified by searchers when they reassembled the tent at the facility where they kept it. There are pictures on the document "autopsy of the tent," that clearly show the cuts through the seams. A woman who was in the building and was a seamstress determined the cuts were made from the inside of the tent. Her theory was examined with a microscopic look at the cut patterns and they determined the seamstress was correct. If you look at the pictures you can see the 3 cuts, one bigger than the other two. The slashes on the tent wall, yes they are there but they may have been there before the incident just accidentally.

It is very odd that any hiker would cut through the seam to make a hole to peek through. As stated before, it would have taken more effort such as a sawing motion to cut through a seam with 2-3 layers thick of canvas. If you started to slash, when you hit the seam, the slashing would stop and you would have to take time to saw through the  seam.

It is also visible on the pictures that the initial cuts were further ripped by the wind.

All of this is a puzzle, even as to why they had to make 3 cuts to see something unless there were 3 of them looking. It is almost as if the hikers were not thinking properly when they did this or in such frame of mind that they did not care if they made the tent unsalvageable.

I have been sewing all of my life, all kinds of fabrics even some canvas and to cut through the seam would make the tent easily rip from the winds, as is witnessed by the cuts being torn.

as far as if they were making the cuts to air out some horrible fume or smoke, that doesn't make any sense either since they had a tent hole that held the stove pipe. It is all a mystery.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 15, 2019, 08:45:29 AM
I think there might be more useful information available through the detailed analysis of the cuts and tears, especially where a cut and tear intersect. 

If you look at the cut in the middle of the tent it has two other straightish cuts/tears that intersect it on either side at an angle.  One of which runs along adjacent to the seam.  Detailed analysis might be able to determine the order in which the cuts/tears were made.  I’m not sure if it could reveal anything useful but it might so may be worth investigating.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on November 15, 2019, 09:20:54 AM
Since the tent was thrown out years later because of mold and deterioration, all we have are the pictures...
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on November 15, 2019, 12:25:30 PM
The cuts made in the tent.  Currently there is an interesting discussion going on another thread that suggests that the three cuts were leaders through the seams of the tent and that such action would have taken a slow deliberate sawing motion.  The cuts may have been smaller when made and later elongated by the wind and or recovery of the tent.  If they were smaller then it is unlikely that they were made as a means of escape.  Also, it would be unlikely that they were made to make the tent unusable.  So what were they made for?  The hikers would not have made cuts in the tent lightly as it was their life boat. 

So could the cuts have been made to look outside to check on some kind of threat that they knew was there? 

Regards

Star man

Well I have never been that convinced about the so called Cuts   !  ?  What if they were made by something slashing at the Tent from the outside  !  ?  After all there are so many ponderables in this Dyatlov Mystery.  Who is to say that the person who examined the Tent wasnt told to say that the cuts came from the inside or perhaps they made a mistake in their examination.

Where the cuts are made from the inside there was suppose to be scratch marks made before the sharp implement (presumably a knife) penetrated the fabric.  That's why they attributed three of the holes in the tent to cuts from the inside.  Also it's unlikely that a slashing action could have cut through the seams - based on Jarrfan's posts, and when you think about it it kind of makes sense.  You would need a sawing cutting motion to cut the thicker tougher seams

Regards

Star man

We only have some old photos and we have to take the word of the Authorities that the so called cuts were made from the inside.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on November 15, 2019, 12:32:25 PM
Since the tent was thrown out years later because of mold and deterioration, all we have are the pictures...

And thats another mystery. Why keep a Tent  [[  a Tent that was a main piece of EVIDENCE  ]]  that long if you dont want to look after it properly. Could the Tent still exist but be hidden away somewhere  !  ? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on November 15, 2019, 09:38:23 PM
I believe they kept it for a long time but since the incident was not front page news or international news, they did not keep adequate care of it. From what I read, the storage room where it was kept leaked water which caused the mold and further destruction of the tent. I don't believe anyone hid the tent away, they just didn't care about it figuring the case was closed...
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 16, 2019, 04:23:23 PM
Have been looking at one of the cuts from the inside.  I think it is cut number 3.  Tried to mark up the image but couldnt upload it as it kept crashing.  Will try again another time.  I am not certain about this, but it looks like cut 3 was made with a knife, and then someone or something used the cut hole as a grab point and then pulled the fabric both up and down, creating two tears that intersect the cut.  The cut has been made through the seam of the tent which is quite strong and therefore unlikely to yield when pulled.  Instead the weak point running at the side of and parallel to the seam is torn upwards.  A second tear intersects the cut on the other side and runs upwards, parallel to the tear on the other side (along the natural line of the stitching).  The cut is also elongated slightly by tearing downwards on both sides.  It looks someone has placed two hands into the cut, grabbing the top and bottom and pulled both up and down at the same time making a bigger hole by tearing the fabric.  It could have been the search and rescue team tying to look inside the tent after they had found it, or It could have been someone or something else.  Think it would be difficult to tell.  Detail from Slobstov might help?

If I can find a way to post the marked up image I will but it keeps crashing.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 16, 2019, 06:24:37 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTwKqNUsSmQcoyOhhDfDf300KtWg1GW1yzUjxVXmGGAFOxCIikF)

Wonder what the shovels looked like that they used to free the tent from its ice incrustation.

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 17, 2019, 02:47:05 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTwKqNUsSmQcoyOhhDfDf300KtWg1GW1yzUjxVXmGGAFOxCIikF)

Wonder what the shovels looked like that they used to free the tent from its ice incrustation.

Yeah looks like it could do some serious damage.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 17, 2019, 02:53:10 PM
Have tried to mark up the picture again.  It is not great as I had to use my phone.  It appears that the hole was cut, then hands were used to pull at the hole to make it bigger.  It could have been the hikers themselves or the search party or someone/something else .

I would not be surprised if the other cuts were used in the same way.


(https://i.ibb.co/5k85XRN/7-C443-AC3-9-A2-B-4-BE9-94-BB-EE92-C36-BC1-DF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tzsbwJ7)

image uploader (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on November 18, 2019, 11:09:17 AM
I believe they kept it for a long time but since the incident was not front page news or international news, they did not keep adequate care of it. From what I read, the storage room where it was kept leaked water which caused the mold and further destruction of the tent. I don't believe anyone hid the tent away, they just didn't care about it figuring the case was closed...

I dont think that the Soviet Authorities would have been to concerned with the news papers in their own Country because they had tight control of them. And they certainly would not have been concerned about what the Western newspapers thought, because they regarded those papers as corrupted anyway.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on November 18, 2019, 11:15:05 AM
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTwKqNUsSmQcoyOhhDfDf300KtWg1GW1yzUjxVXmGGAFOxCIikF)

Wonder what the shovels looked like that they used to free the tent from its ice incrustation.

But did the Investigation suggest that the so called Cuts could have been caused by the Searchers digging gear  !  ? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 23, 2019, 01:11:51 PM
Yes

I have gone over this atleast a half dozen times.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 24, 2019, 11:45:38 PM
From the photographs of the tent it seems that there are lots of tears and small holes which could well have been made by digging the tent out.  But some are clearly cuts made from inside.  Cutting through the seams as Jarrfan has pointed out.  Adjacent to the cut in the above photo there appears to be tears and it looks like the tears are extrapolated from the cuts.  To me it looks like the cuts were made so far and then someone has pulled at the cut to make the hole bigger.  If so then who and why?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 26, 2019, 11:49:35 PM
Have just been reading Ivanov”s interview about fire balls again.  And although I must say it does not appear to bring any new evidence to the case,  there are a couple of observations that I find interesting in the context of the Yeti theory.

He states that someone wearing only socks left the tent to relieve themselves and then their foot prints trace immediately down the slope as if something frightened them.  He also says that there were 8 and sometimes 9 sets of tracks leading to the valley below.  This would indicate that they all went the same way and probably together.

He also talks about the skin of the hikers frozen onto the bark of the cedar as they desperately climbed the tree.

These comments could equally be applied to the Yeti theory.  Just replace fire balls with a Yeti or two.

The skin on the bark is interesting because other eye witness reports claim there was other wood lying around that could have been used for a fire and that many of the cut branches were not used and were left hanging from the lower branches.  When you combine such information with Doroshenko’s severe frost bite and the obvious indicator that he climbed the cedar then it seems to link the events to something very scary that they climbed the tree to find safety from.

This thread has been very strange for me because I started it I thought that I would be able to find evidence to rule out Yeti but I have only found things that could support such a theory with the problem that there is still no globally accepted evidence that they exist.  Saying that the evidence does not rule out other theories either.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on November 27, 2019, 11:43:55 AM
Have just been reading Ivanov”s interview about fire balls again.  And although I must say it does not appear to bring any new evidence to the case,  there are a couple of observations that I find interesting in the context of the Yeti theory.

He states that someone wearing only socks left the tent to relieve themselves and then their foot prints trace immediately down the slope as if something frightened them.  He also says that there were 8 and sometimes 9 sets of tracks leading to the valley below.  This would indicate that they all went the same way and probably together.

He also talks about the skin of the hikers frozen onto the bark of the cedar as they desperately climbed the tree.

These comments could equally be applied to the Yeti theory.  Just replace fire balls with a Yeti or two.

The skin on the bark is interesting because other eye witness reports claim there was other wood lying around that could have been used for a fire and that many of the cut branches were not used and were left hanging from the lower branches.  When you combine such information with Doroshenko’s severe frost bite and the obvious indicator that he climbed the cedar then it seems to link the events to something very scary that they climbed the tree to find safety from.

This thread has been very strange for me because I started it I thought that I would be able to find evidence to rule out Yeti but I have only found things that could support such a theory with the problem that there is still no globally accepted evidence that they exist.  Saying that the evidence does not rule out other theories either.

Regards

Star man

Thats probably the way the best Professional Investigators go about their Investigations. They try to find Evidence to rule out their Hypothesis. That way they are their own best Critic as well. What I would do here is to ALLOW for the inclusion of both FIREBALLS or whatever they are and YETI or whatever they are. In other words it could be that the mysterious Ball or Balls are also connected with the mysterious Creature or Creatures. I note that there have been many reports over time especially coming from North America of UFO's and BIGFOOTS and ANIMAL MUTILATIONS being closely connected.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 27, 2019, 02:37:09 PM
Have just been reading Ivanov”s interview about fire balls again.  And although I must say it does not appear to bring any new evidence to the case,  there are a couple of observations that I find interesting in the context of the Yeti theory.

He states that someone wearing only socks left the tent to relieve themselves and then their foot prints trace immediately down the slope as if something frightened them.  He also says that there were 8 and sometimes 9 sets of tracks leading to the valley below.  This would indicate that they all went the same way and probably together.

He also talks about the skin of the hikers frozen onto the bark of the cedar as they desperately climbed the tree.

These comments could equally be applied to the Yeti theory.  Just replace fire balls with a Yeti or two.

The skin on the bark is interesting because other eye witness reports claim there was other wood lying around that could have been used for a fire and that many of the cut branches were not used and were left hanging from the lower branches.  When you combine such information with Doroshenko’s severe frost bite and the obvious indicator that he climbed the cedar then it seems to link the events to something very scary that they climbed the tree to find safety from.

This thread has been very strange for me because I started it I thought that I would be able to find evidence to rule out Yeti but I have only found things that could support such a theory with the problem that there is still no globally accepted evidence that they exist.  Saying that the evidence does not rule out other theories either.

Regards

Star man

Thats probably the way the best Professional Investigators go about their Investigations. They try to find Evidence to rule out their Hypothesis. That way they are their own best Critic as well. What I would do here is to ALLOW for the inclusion of both FIREBALLS or whatever they are and YETI or whatever they are. In other words it could be that the mysterious Ball or Balls are also connected with the mysterious Creature or Creatures. I note that there have been many reports over time especially coming from North America of UFO's and BIGFOOTS and ANIMAL MUTILATIONS being closely connected.

To repeat the comments that I have heard many presenters and researchers of the DPI say "the deeper you dig the stranger things seem to get"

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on December 15, 2019, 11:49:20 PM
Have had a thought about the injuries of the rav four and the type of scanario that could explain them.

Is a fall down a steep slope a realistic scenario?  Let’s say that three of the group approached the ravine and walked onto a snow overhang, caused by drifting snow and the overhang gives way.  The three fall a couple of metres and tumble down the slope hitting boulders and sustaining cuts to head and chest fractures?

What evidence is there for or against this scenario?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on December 18, 2019, 05:34:14 PM
Have had a thought about the injuries of the rav four and the type of scanario that could explain them.

Is a fall down a steep slope a realistic scenario?  Let’s say that three of the group approached the ravine and walked onto a snow overhang, caused by drifting snow and the overhang gives way.  The three fall a couple of metres and tumble down the slope hitting boulders and sustaining cuts to head and chest fractures?

What evidence is there for or against this scenario?

Regards
Star man

But there was no visible external damage to the skin to suggest those kinds of falls.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on December 18, 2019, 07:24:12 PM
Quote
But some are clearly cuts made from inside


Yup....  Clear as mud
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on December 18, 2019, 11:39:36 PM
Have had a thought about the injuries of the rav four and the type of scanario that could explain them.

Is a fall down a steep slope a realistic scenario?  Let’s say that three of the group approached the ravine and walked onto a snow overhang, caused by drifting snow and the overhang gives way.  The three fall a couple of metres and tumble down the slope hitting boulders and sustaining cuts to head and chest fractures?

What evidence is there for or against this scenario?

Regards
Star man

But there was no visible external damage to the skin to suggest those kinds of falls.

Good point, but could the clothes have protected the outer soft tissue?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on December 18, 2019, 11:42:32 PM
Quote
But some are clearly cuts made from inside


Yup....  Clear as mud

Clearly as in the three cuts reported in the case files. They are clearly cuts made through the seams of the tent.  It doesn’t inform us who made them though.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on December 19, 2019, 08:42:41 AM
Have had a thought about the injuries of the rav four and the type of scanario that could explain them.

Is a fall down a steep slope a realistic scenario?  Let’s say that three of the group approached the ravine and walked onto a snow overhang, caused by drifting snow and the overhang gives way.  The three fall a couple of metres and tumble down the slope hitting boulders and sustaining cuts to head and chest fractures?

What evidence is there for or against this scenario?

Regards
Star man

A fall from a snow overhang is less likely to result in breaks of extremities like ankles and wrists as opposed to a direct fall from height.  But if you consider Thibo he did not sustain significant injuries other than the one depressed fracture.  Also could Lyuda have sustained significant rib fractures on both sides of the chest from tumbling down a slope?  Semyon and Lyuda both suffer very similar injuries to chest AND both of them were found with missing eyes ?  Could this just be a coincidence?

If three of them did fall and Kolevatov did not, it would explain why he had less injuries and died of hypothermia!

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on December 21, 2019, 01:33:57 PM
Have had a thought about the injuries of the rav four and the type of scanario that could explain them.

Is a fall down a steep slope a realistic scenario?  Let’s say that three of the group approached the ravine and walked onto a snow overhang, caused by drifting snow and the overhang gives way.  The three fall a couple of metres and tumble down the slope hitting boulders and sustaining cuts to head and chest fractures?

What evidence is there for or against this scenario?

Regards
Star man

But there was no visible external damage to the skin to suggest those kinds of falls.

Good point, but could the clothes have protected the outer soft tissue?

Regards
Star man

Well I dont know about your outdoor activities but I have been in rough and tumbles since I was a kid. Out and about on building sites and farmland etc etc from age 7. In those days no Elf and Lafty to worry about. And I had many a fall and bump and scrap of the not to serious kind, although I once fell of a push bike and took a small chunk out of My Elbow down to the bone despite protection from clothing. So despite protection from clothing I suffered My fair share of Skin Damage. And the damage to some of those bodies should have involved very serious Skin Damage. Mystery.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on December 21, 2019, 03:19:39 PM
Have had a thought about the injuries of the rav four and the type of scanario that could explain them.

Is a fall down a steep slope a realistic scenario?  Let’s say that three of the group approached the ravine and walked onto a snow overhang, caused by drifting snow and the overhang gives way.  The three fall a couple of metres and tumble down the slope hitting boulders and sustaining cuts to head and chest fractures?

What evidence is there for or against this scenario?

Regards
Star man

But there was no visible external damage to the skin to suggest those kinds of falls.

Good point, but could the clothes have protected the outer soft tissue?

Regards
Star man

Well I dont know about your outdoor activities but I have been in rough and tumbles since I was a kid. Out and about on building sites and farmland etc etc from age 7. In those days no Elf and Lafty to worry about. And I had many a fall and bump and scrap of the not to serious kind, although I once fell of a push bike and took a small chunk out of My Elbow down to the bone despite protection from clothing. So despite protection from clothing I suffered My fair share of Skin Damage. And the damage to some of those bodies should have involved very serious Skin Damage. Mystery.

It’s a difficult one to answer conclusively.  I think the balance of probability would suggest that you should expect some soft tissue damage.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on December 21, 2019, 10:15:52 PM
Geez...  when I was 13, I was hit by a car and my head went through the windshield. Not a single scratch on my head other then a goose egg and a headache.  I was hit by a car a second time.... chattered my ankle in dozens of pieces..... not a scratch. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on December 22, 2019, 03:44:31 PM
Geez...  when I was 13, I was hit by a car and my head went through the windshield. Not a single scratch on my head other then a goose egg and a headache.  I was hit by a car a second time.... chattered my ankle in dozens of pieces..... not a scratch.

Yeah as I said it is a difficult one.  With the clothes it is possible that they could have prevented the soft tissue damage.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on December 24, 2019, 12:31:38 PM
Geez...  when I was 13, I was hit by a car and my head went through the windshield. Not a single scratch on my head other then a goose egg and a headache.  I was hit by a car a second time.... chattered my ankle in dozens of pieces..... not a scratch.

You were very lucky then. Usually there would be damage to skin etc.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on December 24, 2019, 12:34:26 PM
Geez...  when I was 13, I was hit by a car and my head went through the windshield. Not a single scratch on my head other then a goose egg and a headache.  I was hit by a car a second time.... chattered my ankle in dozens of pieces..... not a scratch.

Yeah as I said it is a difficult one.  With the clothes it is possible that they could have prevented the soft tissue damage.

Regards

Star man

Well apart from one being VERY LUCKY, I would say that most falls or collisions will result in some skin damage etc even with clothing protection.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on December 27, 2019, 12:35:15 PM

Why not just make them all disappear, including the tent and all their gear?  That would leave zero evidence and just one big mystery about their disappearance?  It's much cleaner and easier and far more logical.

Another possibility is if they had seen something why not make them sign non disclosure documents, in the ame way the pathologists were required to sign non disclosure documents?

One other question Lyuda left set of ribs have 6 fractures all in a single line.  How was this pattern of fractures created so linearly?



1. Why not make them all disappear?

- Because then it would have been rather obvious that it was murder. The public, their relatives and friends would have understood that nine resourceful humans do not spontaneously disappear with no trace, and they would quite correctly assumed that a killing mission had taken place. That could have created public unrest. To avoid that, it is far more logical to arrange an "accident." Secret police forces all over the worid arrange "suicides", "accidents" and "natural deaths," in particular when the security of state is at stake. Think about the famous Giorgi Markov case. Only the fact that Markov managed to tell of a man running from him after he felt a sharp pain in his thigh prevented the murder to be written off as a "natural death."

2. Why not make them sign non disclosure documents?

- These nine students were bright people. They were young, and they would understand what they observed and be able to tell others in great detail. That made them potentially dangerous. Even if there were no reason to doubt their loyalty to the Soviet state there would always be a risk that one or several of them would tell some spouse, friend or relative what they saw back in 1959. That could be considered too much of a risk to take.

3. One other question Lyuda left set of ribs have 6 fractures all in a single line.  How was this pattern of fractures created so linearly?

- There is no way to tell exactly how it happened, but a likely scenario is that Dubinina was pressed in a standing position against a tree or held by one member of the killing squad while another one dealt the lethal blows with elbows or perhaps a rifle butt. Since Lyuda's body was firmly fixated in one position, the resulting damage also showed a linear pattern if the blows were delivered from the same angle which is likely during such an attack.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on December 28, 2019, 01:11:48 PM

Why not just make them all disappear, including the tent and all their gear?  That would leave zero evidence and just one big mystery about their disappearance?  It's much cleaner and easier and far more logical.

Another possibility is if they had seen something why not make them sign non disclosure documents, in the ame way the pathologists were required to sign non disclosure documents?

One other question Lyuda left set of ribs have 6 fractures all in a single line.  How was this pattern of fractures created so linearly?



1. Why not make them all disappear?

- Because then it would have been rather obvious that it was murder. The public, their relatives and friends would have understood that nine resourceful humans do not spontaneously disappear with no trace, and they would quite correctly assumed that a killing mission had taken place. That could have created public unrest. To avoid that, it is far more logical to arrange an "accident." Secret police forces all over the worid arrange "suicides", "accidents" and "natural deaths," in particular when the security of state is at stake. Think about the famous Giorgi Markov case. Only the fact that Markov managed to tell of a man running from him after he felt a sharp pain in his thigh prevented the murder to be written off as a "natural death."

2. Why not make them sign non disclosure documents?

- These nine students were bright people. They were young, and they would understand what they observed and be able to tell others in great detail. That made them potentially dangerous. Even if there were no reason to doubt their loyalty to the Soviet state there would always be a risk that one or several of them would tell some spouse, friend or relative what they saw back in 1959. That could be considered too much of a risk to take.

3. One other question Lyuda left set of ribs have 6 fractures all in a single line.  How was this pattern of fractures created so linearly?

- There is no way to tell exactly how it happened, but a likely scenario is that Dubinina was pressed in a standing position against a tree or held by one member of the killing squad while another one dealt the lethal blows with elbows or perhaps a rifle butt. Since Lyuda's body was firmly fixated in one position, the resulting damage also showed a linear pattern if the blows were delivered from the same angle which is likely during such an attack.


But if some one wanted to make it look like an accident then why not do something more simple. There are many ways potential murderers could have made it look more like an accident.  Also you can not explain the missing tongue or extraordinary movement of one of the toughest bones in the Human Body.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on December 28, 2019, 05:07:21 PM

Why not just make them all disappear, including the tent and all their gear?  That would leave zero evidence and just one big mystery about their disappearance?  It's much cleaner and easier and far more logical.

Another possibility is if they had seen something why not make them sign non disclosure documents, in the ame way the pathologists were required to sign non disclosure documents?

One other question Lyuda left set of ribs have 6 fractures all in a single line.  How was this pattern of fractures created so linearly?



1. Why not make them all disappear?

- Because then it would have been rather obvious that it was murder. The public, their relatives and friends would have understood that nine resourceful humans do not spontaneously disappear with no trace, and they would quite correctly assumed that a killing mission had taken place. That could have created public unrest. To avoid that, it is far more logical to arrange an "accident." Secret police forces all over the worid arrange "suicides", "accidents" and "natural deaths," in particular when the security of state is at stake. Think about the famous Giorgi Markov case. Only the fact that Markov managed to tell of a man running from him after he felt a sharp pain in his thigh prevented the murder to be written off as a "natural death."

2. Why not make them sign non disclosure documents?

- These nine students were bright people. They were young, and they would understand what they observed and be able to tell others in great detail. That made them potentially dangerous. Even if there were no reason to doubt their loyalty to the Soviet state there would always be a risk that one or several of them would tell some spouse, friend or relative what they saw back in 1959. That could be considered too much of a risk to take.

3. One other question Lyuda left set of ribs have 6 fractures all in a single line.  How was this pattern of fractures created so linearly?

- There is no way to tell exactly how it happened, but a likely scenario is that Dubinina was pressed in a standing position against a tree or held by one member of the killing squad while another one dealt the lethal blows with elbows or perhaps a rifle butt. Since Lyuda's body was firmly fixated in one position, the resulting damage also showed a linear pattern if the blows were delivered from the same angle which is likely during such an attack.

Why would you associate disappearing in a very harsh environment as murder?  People disappear in such environments all the time .  They could have fallen into a crevasse and their bodies covered with snow? 

Are there examples of straight line multiple rib fractures and flail chest that you could put forward to substantiate your claim that these injuries are consistent with hand to hand combat?  My own analysis suggests that these injuries could not have been caused in that way.  At least not by a human. 

Also the shape of Thibo’s depressed fracture is identical in shape and proportions to the ball of a thumb.  I would expect a rifle butt to be flatter on one side.  Again are there examples to substantiate that a blow from a rifle butt can result in such a shape on the skull?

One other question.  Why do you think it was human rather than a Yeti?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on January 02, 2020, 05:00:57 PM
Going back to the injuries and whether they could have been a result of a fall down a steep slope.  There are a couple of questions that come to mind:

1.  Were Lyuda's chest injuries a result of a single large impact or two separate impacts?
2. Is it a coincidence that the two people with significant chest injuries also both had missing eyes?

I think for 1 two impacts seem more likely but if this were the case would the first impact not absorb most of the energy of the fall which then leaves the question where did the energy come from for the second impact?  A second fall or continued fall?

For 2 it just seems unlikely to be a coincidence.  It's not impossible just less likely. 

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on January 03, 2020, 11:00:44 AM
Going back to the injuries and whether they could have been a result of a fall down a steep slope.  There are a couple of questions that come to mind:

1.  Were Lyuda's chest injuries a result of a single large impact or two separate impacts?
2. Is it a coincidence that the two people with significant chest injuries also both had missing eyes?

I think for 1 two impacts seem more likely but if this were the case would the first impact not absorb most of the energy of the fall which then leaves the question where did the energy come from for the second impact?  A second fall or continued fall?

For 2 it just seems unlikely to be a coincidence.  It's not impossible just less likely. 

Regards

Star man

Some of the injuries are similar to the infamous so called CATTLE MUTILATIONS that have occurred around the World at various times
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on January 03, 2020, 04:44:14 PM
Going back to the injuries and whether they could have been a result of a fall down a steep slope.  There are a couple of questions that come to mind:

1.  Were Lyuda's chest injuries a result of a single large impact or two separate impacts?
2. Is it a coincidence that the two people with significant chest injuries also both had missing eyes?

I think for 1 two impacts seem more likely but if this were the case would the first impact not absorb most of the energy of the fall which then leaves the question where did the energy come from for the second impact?  A second fall or continued fall?

For 2 it just seems unlikely to be a coincidence.  It's not impossible just less likely. 

Regards

Star man

Some of the injuries are similar to the infamous so called CATTLE MUTILATIONS that have occurred around the World at various times

I guess they are.  It's strange that there is a narrative that supports an attack by some "thing" .  I would still like to understand why Yuri D climbed the cedar given the state of his hands and feet.  Were his hands and feet in a poor state by the time he got to the cedar, or were they in a better condition, and became severely frost bitten while he was at the cedar trying to start a fire?  Did he climb the tree to collect fire wood and then later developed frost bite because it took a long time to build the fire?  How long did it take them to get to the cedar from the tent?  Answering these questions might help to understand whether Yuri D and Krivo and possibly the others climbed the tree to escape some kind of threat?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on January 06, 2020, 11:43:34 PM
Another consideration for a fall down a incline.  What are the chances of Lyuda and Semyon falling together and both sustaining very similar injuries?  If Semyon was helping Lyuda or they were both helping Thibo then maybe it is possible that they fell at the same time, but to then both receive flail chest!  Again if they fell from the same place, the same height onto the same rocks then maybe.  Thibo’s head injury is different so is it possible that he fell at a different place?  Kolevatov helps Thibo, Semyon helps Lyuda.  Semyon and Lyuda fall together.  Kolevatov and Thibo don’t fall down the slope? 

Still needs more thought,

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on January 07, 2020, 11:23:27 AM
Going back to the injuries and whether they could have been a result of a fall down a steep slope.  There are a couple of questions that come to mind:

1.  Were Lyuda's chest injuries a result of a single large impact or two separate impacts?
2. Is it a coincidence that the two people with significant chest injuries also both had missing eyes?

I think for 1 two impacts seem more likely but if this were the case would the first impact not absorb most of the energy of the fall which then leaves the question where did the energy come from for the second impact?  A second fall or continued fall?

For 2 it just seems unlikely to be a coincidence.  It's not impossible just less likely. 

Regards

Star man

Some of the injuries are similar to the infamous so called CATTLE MUTILATIONS that have occurred around the World at various times

I guess they are.  It's strange that there is a narrative that supports an attack by some "thing" .  I would still like to understand why Yuri D climbed the cedar given the state of his hands and feet.  Were his hands and feet in a poor state by the time he got to the cedar, or were they in a better condition, and became severely frost bitten while he was at the cedar trying to start a fire?  Did he climb the tree to collect fire wood and then later developed frost bite because it took a long time to build the fire?  How long did it take them to get to the cedar from the tent?  Answering these questions might help to understand whether Yuri D and Krivo and possibly the others climbed the tree to escape some kind of threat?

Regards

Star man

I like your use of the word THING. THING is exactly what we may be up against  !  ?  The Soviet Authorities had to use other words. And this THING behaved in a way that we can not comprehend and that may in turn explain a lot about this Dyatlov Mystery.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on January 11, 2020, 04:28:58 PM
A question about the sheet that was used in the tent:

In the Sharavin interview he describes a sheet being in place at the entrance to the tent.  Extract is below:

K: And the sheet that hung at the entrance? Could you see it?

MSh: Yes there was, it looks like there was. Maybe that's why they didn't try to go out through the entrance. On one side of the entrance there was a stove, there was something else they had there. Then it [the sheet] was hung up and it was necessary to leave the tent very quickly. I have such an opinion, to the question why they left the tent so urgently, there can be only one answer: life threatening factors, most likely poisoning. They could not breathe. If there was a movement of snow, they would not have run like that. At night they don’t see how much snow is moving, but the slide stopped. The tent was not demolished. After all, it didn’t grind everyone head over heels with the tent. I think that these were factors related to the unknown and the inability to continue to be here. Couldn't breathe! And the poisoning is such that they felt it. That's why they ran.


I thought the sheet was used to make a partition in the tent for the girls?  So what was it doing at the entrance to the tent?  Keeping the draft out?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on January 11, 2020, 06:10:44 PM
It is possible there were 2 sheets, but will have to check. I remember the partition sheet to separate the girls. it is possible there was a sheet to avert cold wind coming into the entrance since it was buttoned and there could have been drafts.

Another person described the entrance as buttoned closed. This does not make any sense unless the group were convinced they were being asked to come out for just a moment of interrogation.

As far as the footprints, a force could have been standing farther from the group as they were commanded to walk down to the tree line which they accommodated and walked in unison trying to figure out the next step to stay alive.

It is possible they were tortured with fire but it is also possible they were separated and interrogated with the "force" going back and forth to check each person's answers. There was said to be pieces of flesh on the tree bark and the hands of the 2 Yuri's were macerated. They definitely climbed the tree as noted by the cut branches, but still no purpose for that has been established.

There was discussion about poisoning to get them out of the tent. I wonder if it is possible the 3 small cuts were actually from outside the tent and the one seamstress was just making her personal guess. I could guess someone forced a substance, maybe powdered mushrooms or possibly LSD into the tent either by the Mansi which was suggested also, or by the KGB. The CIA used LSD on their own agents in the 1950s, so it is possible the Russians did too.

Keep thinking...
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on January 12, 2020, 04:09:24 PM
It is possible there were 2 sheets, but will have to check. I remember the partition sheet to separate the girls. it is possible there was a sheet to avert cold wind coming into the entrance since it was buttoned and there could have been drafts.

Another person described the entrance as buttoned closed. This does not make any sense unless the group were convinced they were being asked to come out for just a moment of interrogation.

As far as the footprints, a force could have been standing farther from the group as they were commanded to walk down to the tree line which they accommodated and walked in unison trying to figure out the next step to stay alive.

It is possible they were tortured with fire but it is also possible they were separated and interrogated with the "force" going back and forth to check each person's answers. There was said to be pieces of flesh on the tree bark and the hands of the 2 Yuri's were macerated. They definitely climbed the tree as noted by the cut branches, but still no purpose for that has been established.

There was discussion about poisoning to get them out of the tent. I wonder if it is possible the 3 small cuts were actually from outside the tent and the one seamstress was just making her personal guess. I could guess someone forced a substance, maybe powdered mushrooms or possibly LSD into the tent either by the Mansi which was suggested also, or by the KGB. The CIA used LSD on their own agents in the 1950s, so it is possible the Russians did too.

Keep thinking...

It is possible that it was genuinely used to keep the cold out of the tent.  It's interesting though when you consider the scene.  I can't be sure but it does appear that the three cuts were made from inside, and then the holes were made bigger by grabbing the cuts and pulling, tearing the tent.  There is a suppose to be a hole in the tent with one of Dyatlov's jackets stuffed into it.  The blankets are layed out and not crumpled.  Thibo and Semyon were better dressed and had shoes on.  Semyon had his camera around his neck.  Rusted managed to put on one boot but not the other, which I assume was left in the tent (7 Valenki).  They took matches, a flashlight, knives or at least one or more pen knives.  Another jacket was found about 10 metres from the tent.  They definitely left in a hurry and they didn't stop to finish dressing.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on January 27, 2020, 11:40:16 PM
Weighing up all the different evidence for the dpi I thought that this might be an interesting question for the Yeti theory:

What evidence is there that they were not attacked by a Yeti or some other kind of large ape like creature?

Apart from the the obvious challenge that Yetis don’t exist or have never been proven to exist.  What evidence is there to rule it out.  One problem that I can think of to start with is the lack of foot prints of such a creature.

What else is there?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on January 28, 2020, 01:00:49 PM
Weighing up all the different evidence for the dpi I thought that this might be an interesting question for the Yeti theory:

What evidence is there that they were not attacked by a Yeti or some other kind of large ape like creature?

Apart from the the obvious challenge that Yetis don’t exist or have never been proven to exist.  What evidence is there to rule it out.  One problem that I can think of to start with is the lack of foot prints of such a creature.

What else is there?

Regards

Star man

Its really a fundamental philosophical point you raise. And its tricky. If we knew that we were dealing with a crime then we would have to curtail the wild theories. But because we dont know if a crime was committed then we can allow these wild theories. I suppose most would agree that the Yeti theory comes under the wild heading. Even so it is probably best if we keep our feet on the ground so to speak. And that is a point I would like to bring up here. What if the mythical Yeti is not of this known World  !  ?  That could immediately answer your lack of Footprints point. Interestingly The Indian Army was convinced that it had come across Yeti Footprints in the Himalaya.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-48101717. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on January 28, 2020, 09:12:37 PM
As far as the Yeti theory, I would investigate the Mansi stories to confirm or not confirm they have seen a Yeti or seen footprints. They are the people who live there and they are the ones hunting in the woods. If a yeti  can be confirmed, it has to be by the Mansi information....
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on January 29, 2020, 06:00:13 AM
Weighing up all the different evidence for the dpi I thought that this might be an interesting question for the Yeti theory:

What evidence is there that they were not attacked by a Yeti or some other kind of large ape like creature?

Apart from the the obvious challenge that Yetis don’t exist or have never been proven to exist.  What evidence is there to rule it out.  One problem that I can think of to start with is the lack of foot prints of such a creature.

What else is there?

Regards

Star man

Its really a fundamental philosophical point you raise. And its tricky. If we knew that we were dealing with a crime then we would have to curtail the wild theories. But because we dont know if a crime was committed then we can allow these wild theories. I suppose most would agree that the Yeti theory comes under the wild heading. Even so it is probably best if we keep our feet on the ground so to speak. And that is a point I would like to bring up here. What if the mythical Yeti is not of this known World  !  ?  That could immediately answer your lack of Footprints point. Interestingly The Indian Army was convinced that it had come across Yeti Footprints in the Himalaya.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-48101717.

author=sarapuk link=topic=452.msg8303#msg8303 date=1580245249]
Weighing up all the different evidence for the dpi I thought that this might be an interesting question for the Yeti theory:

What evidence is there that they were not attacked by a Yeti or some other kind of large ape like creature?

Apart from the the obvious challenge that Yetis don’t exist or have never been proven to exist.  What evidence is there to rule it out.  One problem that I can think of to start with is the lack of foot prints of such a creature.

What else is there?

Regards

Star man

Its really a fundamental philosophical point you raise. And its tricky. If we knew that we were dealing with a crime then we would have to curtail the wild theories. But because we dont know if a crime was committed then we can allow these wild theories. I suppose most would agree that the Yeti theory comes under the wild heading. Even so it is probably best if we keep our feet on the ground so to speak. And that is a point I would like to bring up here. What if the mythical Yeti is not of this known World  !  ?  That could immediately answer your lack of Footprints point. Interestingly The Indian Army was convinced that it had come across Yeti Footprints in the Himalaya.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-48101717.
[/quote]

Your quite correct.  The Yeti is a wild theory.  But I think if it’s worth considering it is worth considering properly.  Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence.  We have all been indoctrinated to believe that such creatures don’t exist.  Yet there are hundreds of eye witness reports and lots of grainy videos and photographs some of which are at least credible. 

Don’t get me wrong I too am still sceptical and as previously stated in this topic , when I first started to look at it I expected to find evidence to rule it out.  However I found evidence that supports it.  Saying that caution is still required because when you introduce potentially mythical explanations into a theory it becomes easier to fit the myth to the evidence.  I don’t think I have done that. There is a narrative that seems to fit.  Many pieces of evidence can be attributed to different causes but when you do that the narrative moves further and further away from reality and almost becomes as unlikely as the myth.  Examples below:

1. Leaving the tent with no shoes or outside clothes suggests an immediate threat to their lives.  There are many possible threats that might explain this.  A dangerous animal or creature being one.

2. Thibo’s head injury is identical in shape and proportion to a very large thumb.  This could be coincidence.  Thibo May have fallen heavily and hit his head on a rock of exactly the right shape and radius of curvature and luckily did sustain any other significant injuries to extremities or body.

3. Rustem head injury and internal bleeding/damage is consistent with an assault of some kind.  But he may have simply wandered around the slope repeatedly falling over hitting his head until he just gave up and layer down to die.

4. Lyuda and Semyon’s injuries are consistent with a massive assault typical of that of an large ape with facial damage including eye removed and Lyuda tongue, hyoid bone.  But it is possible that they just fell off a ridge and landed heavily sustaining very similar injuries while not significantly hurting arena/legs, ankles and wrists.  It is possible that the eyes and tongue are just a component of natural decay and the unusual movement of the hyoid bone is just normal.

5. Yuri D climes the cedar when it is likely that he had severe frost bite.  Was he trying to find safety from something or was he just trying to get fire wood and look for his friends.

Why would the government behave so strangely about the case, even if they knew a Yeti was involved?  Maybe because the creature was a hybrid human that they themselves had been experimenting with and had been released into the wild.  NB previous government sponsored research into producing human/ape hybrids.

Maybe it was just something else - nuclear or chemical weapon test.

The point is the more you try to explain away all the related circumstances as coincidence the more unlikely that narrative becomes too.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on January 29, 2020, 08:37:41 AM
As far as the Yeti theory, I would investigate the Mansi stories to confirm or not confirm they have seen a Yeti or seen footprints. They are the people who live there and they are the ones hunting in the woods. If a yeti  can be confirmed, it has to be by the Mansi information....

From what I have seen it appears the Menk is a part of the Mansi belief system.  But many native peoples have similar beliefs and stories including many native Americans.  I”m not sure it will help support the case though. 

If you think about it though even if someone provides proof of the existence of Yeti it doesn’t prove that a Yeti was responsible for the dpi.  That would still have to be proven.

Regards
Star man

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on January 29, 2020, 11:50:01 PM
Just to illustrate the point I made above further with a hypothetical example:

A man is found dead at the front of a tall building.  He has significant chest, head injuries.  He recently lost his job, his girlfriend left him, he was being evicted from his apartment and he told all his friends he was fed up with life.  His apartment is directly above where he was found.  His balcony door was open and dirt was found on the hand rail that matches the dirt on his shoes.  What do you think happened to him!

Conclusion - he was subject to a hit and run outside his apartment building?

He may have left the door to his balcony open to get some fresh air in?  The dirt on the hand rail is where he rested his foot while doing his shoe lace up. 

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on February 11, 2020, 09:45:07 AM
Weighing up all the different evidence for the dpi I thought that this might be an interesting question for the Yeti theory:

What evidence is there that they were not attacked by a Yeti or some other kind of large ape like creature?

Apart from the the obvious challenge that Yetis don’t exist or have never been proven to exist.  What evidence is there to rule it out.  One problem that I can think of to start with is the lack of foot prints of such a creature.

What else is there?

Regards

Star man

Its really a fundamental philosophical point you raise. And its tricky. If we knew that we were dealing with a crime then we would have to curtail the wild theories. But because we dont know if a crime was committed then we can allow these wild theories. I suppose most would agree that the Yeti theory comes under the wild heading. Even so it is probably best if we keep our feet on the ground so to speak. And that is a point I would like to bring up here. What if the mythical Yeti is not of this known World  !  ?  That could immediately answer your lack of Footprints point. Interestingly The Indian Army was convinced that it had come across Yeti Footprints in the Himalaya.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-48101717.

author=sarapuk link=topic=452.msg8303#msg8303 date=1580245249]
Weighing up all the different evidence for the dpi I thought that this might be an interesting question for the Yeti theory:

What evidence is there that they were not attacked by a Yeti or some other kind of large ape like creature?

Apart from the the obvious challenge that Yetis don’t exist or have never been proven to exist.  What evidence is there to rule it out.  One problem that I can think of to start with is the lack of foot prints of such a creature.

What else is there?

Regards

Star man

Its really a fundamental philosophical point you raise. And its tricky. If we knew that we were dealing with a crime then we would have to curtail the wild theories. But because we dont know if a crime was committed then we can allow these wild theories. I suppose most would agree that the Yeti theory comes under the wild heading. Even so it is probably best if we keep our feet on the ground so to speak. And that is a point I would like to bring up here. What if the mythical Yeti is not of this known World  !  ?  That could immediately answer your lack of Footprints point. Interestingly The Indian Army was convinced that it had come across Yeti Footprints in the Himalaya.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-48101717.

Your quite correct.  The Yeti is a wild theory.  But I think if it’s worth considering it is worth considering properly.  Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence.  We have all been indoctrinated to believe that such creatures don’t exist.  Yet there are hundreds of eye witness reports and lots of grainy videos and photographs some of which are at least credible. 

Don’t get me wrong I too am still sceptical and as previously stated in this topic , when I first started to look at it I expected to find evidence to rule it out.  However I found evidence that supports it.  Saying that caution is still required because when you introduce potentially mythical explanations into a theory it becomes easier to fit the myth to the evidence.  I don’t think I have done that. There is a narrative that seems to fit.  Many pieces of evidence can be attributed to different causes but when you do that the narrative moves further and further away from reality and almost becomes as unlikely as the myth.  Examples below:

1. Leaving the tent with no shoes or outside clothes suggests an immediate threat to their lives.  There are many possible threats that might explain this.  A dangerous animal or creature being one.

2. Thibo’s head injury is identical in shape and proportion to a very large thumb.  This could be coincidence.  Thibo May have fallen heavily and hit his head on a rock of exactly the right shape and radius of curvature and luckily did sustain any other significant injuries to extremities or body.

3. Rustem head injury and internal bleeding/damage is consistent with an assault of some kind.  But he may have simply wandered around the slope repeatedly falling over hitting his head until he just gave up and layer down to die.

4. Lyuda and Semyon’s injuries are consistent with a massive assault typical of that of an large ape with facial damage including eye removed and Lyuda tongue, hyoid bone.  But it is possible that they just fell off a ridge and landed heavily sustaining very similar injuries while not significantly hurting arena/legs, ankles and wrists.  It is possible that the eyes and tongue are just a component of natural decay and the unusual movement of the hyoid bone is just normal.

5. Yuri D climes the cedar when it is likely that he had severe frost bite.  Was he trying to find safety from something or was he just trying to get fire wood and look for his friends.

Why would the government behave so strangely about the case, even if they knew a Yeti was involved?  Maybe because the creature was a hybrid human that they themselves had been experimenting with and had been released into the wild.  NB previous government sponsored research into producing human/ape hybrids.

Maybe it was just something else - nuclear or chemical weapon test.

The point is the more you try to explain away all the related circumstances as coincidence the more unlikely that narrative becomes too.

Regards
Star man
[/quote]

All these injuries bespeak an attack.

We can safely dismiss the avalanche theory. There were no avalanches in the area. 

We can safely dismiss the infrasound theory. There are no observations of infrasound no observations of infrasound having that particular effect.  There are no observations of infrasound having made a large group of people lose their senses in the same way with no one among a group of intelligent humans being able to reason clearly. 

We can safely dismiss the yeti theory. Yetis do not exist, and fantasy creatures do not kill people.

- Leaving the tent without proper clothing or mittens means that there was an immediate threat to their lives. The only probable threat would come from other humans. There were no bite marks, no claw marks, on any of the victims, so the wolverine theory as well as the wolf theory can also be dismissed.

- The injuries of the two Yuris are consistent with their attempt to flee their attackers by desperately trying to climb a tree with bare hands without mittens. That kind of desperation is seen when someone is pursued.

- The shape of the head injury of Thibo is consistent with the impact of a few blows from a rifle butt.

- The head injury of Rustem Slobodin, likewise. There is no possibility that these injuries could have resulted from him stumbling around and falling.

- The injuries of Lyuda and Semyon are consistent with repeated blows by trained killers. From my jiu jitsu training (I am merely a yellow belt, though) I know very well that elbow strikes by a trained human can create just these injuries. There is no possibility that these injuries came from a fall. The ravine was not steep enough, and if there had been a fall it would still be impossible that both would have the same kind of chest damage with no damage to their limbs.

- These people were all murdered, and they were murdered by another group of humans who took great care to make it look like an accident. The attackers' intelligence and skill is beyond doubt, only Igor Dyatlov had an injury that seems to have been caused by an edged weapon - most likely a bayonet which Igor hit when he tried to fight against his attackers. However, these attackers were not local people or common criminals.

- Why the Soviet government behaved so strange? Well, these nine students were gifted individuals and many of them had high technical competence. If they witnessed something there in the Urals they were not supposed to know about, they would pose a potential security risk to the state. Given the international situation at the time, the Soviet government could not afford such a risk. So, an "accident" occurred.

- Yes, there was an "overwhelming force" indeed. That was the investigator's way to indirectly state what killed these unfortunates.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on February 11, 2020, 11:46:17 PM
I agree with a lot that you say.  It does fit an attack - and Yetis might not exist, but given the wealth of reports many by credible people it would be foolish to rule it out as a possibility and there is evidence that fits.  Thibo’s skull fracture doesn’t resemble a rifle butt.  This is examined in a previous post. 

I would not rule out the possibility of a simple snow slide that covered the tent forcing the hikers to cut their way out.  WAB has presented a convincing scenario where the injuries could have been sustained.  Put the snow slide and WANs idea together and there is a simple plausible explanation. The injuries are very suspect.  But it isn’t impossible that they occurred naturally.  If the tent was covered with snow and they had to dig their way out it would not be long before their hands would loose all feeling and become useless.  Clearly this is why Krivonischenko bit his own finger.  From shear frustration and desperation knowing he needed his hands to survive.  He probably could not feel any pain when he did this.

I still don’t think there is enough evidence - even speculative to suggest they were attacked by people. 

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on May 21, 2020, 03:50:06 AM
Hello there,
This is my first post on DPI, and I have to say I am thrilled with the existent forum ! Many thanks to all the contributors.

My addition to the Yeti/Menk theory is the following exerpt from a study ("The Legend of the Almas: A Comparative and Critical Analysis" available here: https://digitalcollections.sit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=http://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjuhuz238TpAhWmThUIHf1qBtgQFjAWegQICRAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdigitalcollections.sit.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1780%26context%3Disp_collection&usg=AOvVaw1KzWTt1DiKO5WLzsHJ0NH8&httpsredir=1&article=1780&context=isp_collection) concerning the existence of the "Almas" creature (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almas_(cryptozoology)), which, unlike the almost entirely peacefull Yeti, can react with violence when cornered:
 
"There were also many wartime sightings and interactions with the almas. In 1925 in the Pamir mountains, Russian soldiers had cornered rebels in a cave (“Russian Bigfoot“). However, there was an almas in the cave, which attacked the rebels one by one, until one of the rebels managed to shoot and kill it (“Russian Bigfoot”). The one surviving rebel showed the almas to Russian General Mikhail Stephanovitch Topilski, who described it in an official report (“Russian Bigfoot“)."

Very interestingly for DPI, the "almas" attacked the rebels "one by one", until there was only one survivor (that managed to kill it).

The author, at the end of the study, makes his own assertion regarding the existence of the "Almas": "My Explanation For The Almas. After completing this paper, my opinion on the question of the reality of
the almas is that it definitely used to and possibly still does exist as a real creature. I think the most likely explanation is that the almas is a small, surviving group of Neanderthals or some other, possibly unknown, descendent of homo erectus. Neanderthals and possibly some other pre-human species were alive at the same time as modern humans before competition drove them to extinction."
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on May 23, 2020, 06:18:02 AM
Further on the Yeti/Menk theory, I've done some reading the previous days about Russian, Mongolian and Chinese human-like wild men or ape creatures, reported in the last 100 years. I've found the Siberian Chuchuuna (6 to 7 feet high that reportedly feeds on human flesh , also spelled Tjutjuna), the Mongolian Almas (6 to 7 feet high that can kill a yak with a single paw swipe, also called Almasti or Mulen) , the Nepalese Yeti (the Abominable Snowman, 7 to 9 feet high that is usually peacefull, but attacks humans when cornered/threatened. Other names Nyalmo, Chuti, Ban Jhakri).

Any one of those cryptozoological beasts had the strength to produce serious injuries (cracked skulls, broken ribs), and all of them are reported to attack people when cornered/threatened. One report on the Yeti mentions two of them attacking a yak herd in the middle of the night, killing two yaks immediately (by grabbing them by the horns and snapping their necks) and completely consuming (eating) them by morning. Another report of a Yeti attack in 1974 on a herd of human-held yaks produced an immediate victim (a yak had it's neck snapped immediately), who's brain was later eaten.

More info here: https://hobnailtrekkingco.com/the-mysterious-yeti/

A photo of Giganthopitecus next to a human (8ft versus 6ft tall - my estimate): https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/01/160106-science-evolution-apes-giant/
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on May 27, 2020, 04:55:39 PM
A couple of interesting articles there alecsandros. As you know there are vast amounts of information coming online these days. The WWW just keeps getting bigger and better. Your first article does get me thinking as to why, as far as I know, no one as ever launched a serious attempt to study all the local Tribes Legends in the areas that the Dyatlov Group passed through on their ill fated expedition. Apart from the initial investigation by the Authorities when the Mansi were allegedly interrogated as possible suspects in the Murder of the Dyatlov Group. A study of the Local Tribes Legends would almost certainly bring up the Menk, this areas version of BIGFOOT. The study would need to be done on the ground to get the best feel for the Legends. Interviewing the Locals, many of whom are going to be getting very old.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on May 28, 2020, 01:09:13 AM
A couple of interesting articles there alecsandros. As you know there are vast amounts of information coming online these days. The WWW just keeps getting bigger and better. Your first article does get me thinking as to why, as far as I know, no one as ever launched a serious attempt to study all the local Tribes Legends in the areas that the Dyatlov Group passed through on their ill fated expedition. Apart from the initial investigation by the Authorities when the Mansi were allegedly interrogated as possible suspects in the Murder of the Dyatlov Group. A study of the Local Tribes Legends would almost certainly bring up the Menk, this areas version of BIGFOOT. The study would need to be done on the ground to get the best feel for the Legends. Interviewing the Locals, many of whom are going to be getting very old.
I would be thrilled to learn about the scientific observation of a Menk. I grew up with Jules Verne's books about mysterious places and travels, and I still hope that Planet Earth still has surprises for us, even in our post-modern world.
My best bet would be that the Menk is a Denovisan/Neanderthal hybrid, or some small population of Giganthopitecus...
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on June 01, 2020, 04:48:34 PM
Have tried to mark up the picture again.  It is not great as I had to use my phone.  It appears that the hole was cut, then hands were used to pull at the hole to make it bigger.  It could have been the hikers themselves or the search party or someone/something else .

I would not be surprised if the other cuts were used in the same way.


(https://i.ibb.co/5k85XRN/7-C443-AC3-9-A2-B-4-BE9-94-BB-EE92-C36-BC1-DF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tzsbwJ7)

image uploader (https://imgbb.com/)

I am still pondering the scene at the tent.  I think there are several key pieces of information of note:

1.  The cuts made from the inside of the tent.
2. The fact that the group left the camp site all together
3. The fact that many of them did not collect appropriate clothing and footwear.  E.g Rustem's single boot.
4.  Nothing obvious taken from the tent.
5. The front of the tent was found still standing.

There other facts but the above are the ones that I am interested at the moment.

There are also reports that there was a sheet set up near the entrance, also that there was a hole with a jacket pushed into it.  There are also reports of another jacket and shoes found several metres from the tent.  I am cautious with the eye witness information as it is less reliable and the scene at the tent was messed up when the rescue party arrived.

There's not much to go on, but I keep coming back to this as I think understanding this scene is very important.  I will post any ideas I come up with.

Regards

Star Man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on June 05, 2020, 05:52:15 PM
I think there are several key pieces of evidence in the case files and at the tent that need to be examined in detail.

1. The cuts from the inside (potentially 3 cuts as stated in the case files).
2. The fact that they left and did not all take sufficient clothing and footwear with them.
3. The fact that they left the tent and campsite all together and headed for the tree line.
4. The fact that when the tent was found, the front if the tent was still standing.

There is other supporting evidence also but the above facts may be key to understanding what happened. Using the above facts and applying some simple balance of probability may allow us to home in on the events or type of event that led to this tragedy. I have included some of my own thoughts below.

If we look at the various theories, using the above information, and balance of probability we can quickly classify the theories as, very unlikely, unlikely, possible, or likely.

1. Avalanche or snow slide - very unlikely

I think we can classify an avalanche or snow slide (even a minor one as very unlikely). The slope is not that significant, and the front of the tent was still standing. I dont believe these experiences hikes would be fooled by a fake or perceived avalanche either. If there had been a small snow slide that covered part of the tent and the hikers had to cut their way out,, then as the front of the tent was still standing and the boots/tools where just inside the front of the tent on the left and right respectively, they should have been able to reach these. They would have known that they were going to an almost certain doom by descending the slope without their gear and so for a small snow slide I cant see why they would not try to retrieve more clothing, shoes and equipment and even try to recover the tent. For these reasons I would say that this theory is very unlikely.

2. The hikers died somewhere else and the scene was staged - very unlikely.

There is basically too much circumstantial detail around the various scenes and forensics. E.g Krivo bit his finger so hard that a piece of the skin was found in his mouth. This is totally consistent with the scene at the cedar. Someone who was freezing to death and who needed their hands to survive would understandably be frustrated that their hands were too cold to use. Trying to will your hands to work by biting them seems like something he would do out of desperation. The scratches and abrasions are onsistent with climbing the tree to get fire wood, or escape something. Also, there are pictures of them setting up the tent. Yes, pictures can be forged but it's unlikely. Also, I really dont see why any authority would feel they needed to go to that much trouble when there are easier ways to make people disappear. So I think it is very unlikely that the scene was fabricated.

3. Toxic Chemical or gas - possible

Exposure to a toxic agent, could result in a panicked response. The panic may explain why the tent was cut, rather than using the front to exit the tent. Some may have used the exit, some may have tried to cut through the fabric. It would also explain why they did not hang around to collect clothes and equipment and left the camp site to look for a safer place. There is also, the problem with the missing toxicology report from the case files. I dont think this one can be ruled out. There are a number of potential sources for there being toxic gas present in the various theories.

4. Forced out of the tent by other people (murdered) - unlikely

The weather was bad and visibility was poor. It was dark and they would have been difficult to find. There is no apparent motive. Nothing was taken from the tent. There were no signs of other persons at any of the scenes. There were 9 hikers so I suspect they may have tried to overpower, even 1 or 2 armed persons rather than face certain death. At least they may have had a slim chance then. I think it is safe to say that this scenario is unlikely.

5. Katabatic wind or extreme whether event - very unlikely

The weather was bad but not that bad and the conditions for a katabatic wind are not present. A strong wind or weather event is unlikely to require anyone to cut through the side of the tent. There would have likely been some warning and they could have better prepared themselves, but there is no sign of this. So it's very unlikely.

6. Poisoning/drugs - unlikely

The group had already been hiking and camping for several nights. I think that if their food was contaminated or bad, then its unlikely that they would have made it as far as they did without one or more members of the group falling ill. Given how experienced the hikers were they would have known the dangers of experimenting with drugs under these circumstances too, so I dont think they would have all taken a drug of some kind. It's not impossible but it's unlikely.

7. Ball lightning - very unlikely

There is simply no logical reason why ball lightning would induce them to cut their tent from the inside, and leave the camp without adequate clothing. It's very unlikely.

8. Internal squabble/in fighting - very unlikely

There are signs of a squabble. Minor injuries to knuckles, hands, face, lips etc, but on this night they were also in good humour as the pamphlet indicates. They also worked together as a team and they knew the dangers that fighting could result in. Even if there had been some kind of internal squabble and fight, there would be no reason for them all to leave the safety of the tent and the camp site, and I would expect more of them to have collected, boots, clothing and equipment. The evidence doesn't fit so I think this scenario is very unlikely.

9. Yeti - unlikely/possible

The rational part of my brain would lead me to think that this scenario is unlikely. However, there is evidence that fits such circumstances, as described in the Yeti topic/thread, So I am going to stretch and say that the probability may lie between unlikely and possible. I would not expect the group to try to cut the tent to escape such a creature as it would be sensible to try and stay hidden in the tent and hope that it went away. However if such a creature was there and was trying to grab at the hikers through the front of the tent, then some may have panicked and cut the tent to escape, then fled the camp. It might also explain why they didnt grab the axe to use as a weapon as it was near tge entrance to the tent.

10. Infrasound - unlikely/possible

It is possible that conditions that night resulted in the generation of infrasound. Infrasound can instill a feeling of dread into people, however from what I have read it doesn't affect everyone, it tends to affect about 25% of people in this negative way. So if it was there then it would only have affected several of the group. Even if these person had panicked (and there is no guarantee that it would panicked those affected) then I still cant see why they would all flee the camp without the essential gear they needed. Clearly Rustem tried to put his boots on, but left before he got the second boot. I would place the probability between unlikely and possible.


11 Aliens - unlikely/possible

This is another scenario where the rational part if my brain is screaming at me to rule it out. But, it could explain the scene at the tent and is something that could have caused them to panic and flee. So, I would stretch and say that it is unlikely but possible.

12. Wild Animal - unlikely

If there had been a wild animal like a bear or wolves, then it would not make sense to cut the tent and run into the night without your shoes, unless of course the animal was trying to gain access via the front of the tent. Also large bears are hibernating at this time of year.

13. Something nobody has thought of yet?

Summary if thoughts

Looking at the evidence, it seems that the type of scenario that fits the evidence at the tent, is one where something unusual or unnatural happened, something that instilled significant fear, panic and the flight response.

Looking at the evidence at the tent alone, I think the chemical/toxic scenario seems the most probable, and this would likely have been the result of some kind of military test. Infrasound is a possibility, and the injuries could be explained by natural hazards on the mountain. However when you take some of the other evidence into account such as the injuries of the Rav 4 injuries they also fit the pattern of an attack by an extremely powerful creature such as a large ape, or even potentially some extraterrestrial being (who knows).

Maybe it should not be so surprising that the theories that are closer to the top if the list are the more unusual, and strange and maybe this is why the DPI mystery is so intriguing?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sparrow on June 06, 2020, 01:38:56 AM
Star man,  good-posting  It does seem like you have tried to think this thing through.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 07, 2020, 06:53:32 AM
1. Avalanche or snow slide - very unlikely

I think we can classify an avalanche or snow slide (even a minor one as very unlikely). The slope is not that significant, and the front of the tent was still standing. I dont believe these experiences hikes would be fooled by a fake or perceived avalanche either. If there had been a small snow slide that covered part of the tent and the hikers had to cut their way out,, then as the front of the tent was still standing and the boots/tools where just inside the front of the tent on the left and right respectively, they should have been able to reach these. They would have known that they were going to an almost certain doom by descending the slope without their gear and so for a small snow slide I cant see why they would not try to retrieve more clothing, shoes and equipment and even try to recover the tent. For these reasons I would say that this theory is very unlikely.
The primary reason why an avalanche was unlikely is that the footprints remained intact. If there was an avalanche, coming after them, there would have been no footprints.

Quote
2. The hikers died somewhere else and the scene was staged - very unlikely.

There is basically too much circumstantial detail around the various scenes and forensics. E.g Krivo bit his finger so hard that a piece of the skin was found in his mouth. This is totally consistent with the scene at the cedar. Someone who was freezing to death and who needed their hands to survive would understandably be frustrated that their hands were too cold to use. Trying to will your hands to work by biting them seems like something he would do out of desperation. The scratches and abrasions are onsistent with climbing the tree to get fire wood, or escape something. Also, there are pictures of them setting up the tent. Yes, pictures can be forged but it's unlikely. Also, I really dont see why any authority would feel they needed to go to that much trouble when there are easier ways to make people disappear. So I think it is very unlikely that the scene was fabricated.
This is debatable, as several objects are missing (notebooks, cameras), while others appeared with no apparent reason (military grade leg protection that didn't belong to anyone in the group). This tends to indicate that someone was at the scene of the event before the official search produced it's findings.

Quote
3. Toxic Chemical or gas - possible

Exposure to a toxic agent, could result in a panicked response. The panic may explain why the tent was cut, rather than using the front to exit the tent. Some may have used the exit, some may have tried to cut through the fabric. It would also explain why they did not hang around to collect clothes and equipment and left the camp site to look for a safer place. There is also, the problem with the missing toxicology report from the case files. I dont think this one can be ruled out. There are a number of potential sources for there being toxic gas present in the various theories.
I tend to favour this theory as well. Chemical gas would immediately be noticed - dififculties in breathing, blurred vision, etc - and would trigger a flight response.

Quote
4. Forced out of the tent by other people (murdered) - unlikely

The weather was bad and visibility was poor. It was dark and they would have been difficult to find. There is no apparent motive. Nothing was taken from the tent. There were no signs of other persons at any of the scenes. There were 9 hikers so I suspect they may have tried to overpower, even 1 or 2 armed persons rather than face certain death. At least they may have had a slim chance then. I think it is safe to say that this scenario is unlikely.

Motive - trespassing. Method - surrounding the tent with riflemen and forcing everybody out in the cold. Later forcing them to make a fire and a den, so everything might appear "normal" for the authorities.
I don't favour this hypotheses either, but I wouldn't rule it out.

Quote
5. Katabatic wind or extreme whether event - very unlikely

The weather was bad but not that bad and the conditions for a katabatic wind are not present. A strong wind or weather event is unlikely to require anyone to cut through the side of the tent. There would have likely been some warning and they could have better prepared themselves, but there is no sign of this. So it's very unlikely.
Mmm, perhaps, but keeping in mind that someone apparently was at the scene before Fev 26th/27th, an extreme weather event shouldn't be ruled out. For instance, if the hurricane thrown one or two skiers on the slope, for several tens or hundreds of meters, the others may have rushed to their aid. Later, after a few days, a first patrol alterted by Mansi people may have reached the tent and searched it, possibly slicing it open to check for documents hidden in the fabric. They would understand that everyone was dead, and take with them some cameras/notebooks (which ones ? why ?).
Quote
6. Poisoning/drugs - unlikely

The group had already been hiking and camping for several nights. I think that if their food was contaminated or bad, then its unlikely that they would have made it as far as they did without one or more members of the group falling ill. Given how experienced the hikers were they would have known the dangers of experimenting with drugs under these circumstances too, so I dont think they would have all taken a drug of some kind. It's not impossible but it's unlikely.
I also consider this theory unlikely.

Quote
7. Ball lightning - very unlikely

There is simply no logical reason why ball lightning would induce them to cut their tent from the inside, and leave the camp without adequate clothing. It's very unlikely.
Mmm, if the ball lightning was directly above the tent, and slowly descending over them, while emitting small electrical discharges, everybody would freak out and exit ASAP. A ball lightning explosion may have caused "Zolotaryov"'s and Lyubidina's injuries. I seem to remember a Romanian event from 1920-22, from a local UFO book called "the monster comes at dusk". It is about two ball lightnings (or something like that), hovering above a small village. At dusk, they both enter a house, through the chimney, and explode inside, producing severe burns and fractures to the inhabitants (two women).
Quote
8. Internal squabble/in fighting - very unlikely

There are signs of a squabble. Minor injuries to knuckles, hands, face, lips etc, but on this night they were also in good humour as the pamphlet indicates. They also worked together as a team and they knew the dangers that fighting could result in. Even if there had been some kind of internal squabble and fight, there would be no reason for them all to leave the safety of the tent and the camp site, and I would expect more of them to have collected, boots, clothing and equipment. The evidence doesn't fit so I think this scenario is very unlikely.
Perhaps, but coupled with infrasound, this may have some truth in it.
Quote
9. Yeti - unlikely/possible

The rational part of my brain would lead me to think that this scenario is unlikely. However, there is evidence that fits such circumstances, as described in the Yeti topic/thread, So I am going to stretch and say that the probability may lie between unlikely and possible. I would not expect the group to try to cut the tent to escape such a creature as it would be sensible to try and stay hidden in the tent and hope that it went away. However if such a creature was there and was trying to grab at the hikers through the front of the tent, then some may have panicked and cut the tent to escape, then fled the camp. It might also explain why they didnt grab the axe to use as a weapon as it was near tge entrance to the tent.
The Menk/Almas/Yeti seems to be very powerfull. I have read about an Indian Yeti killing 30 people (that wanted to catch him) in the XVIIIth century. However, there is no definitive evidence that the Menk exists... Still, at some level I think this is possible. Even using mountain gorillas for some military experiment, this is possible to have happened.

Quote
10. Infrasound - unlikely/possible

It is possible that conditions that night resulted in the generation of infrasound. Infrasound can instill a feeling of dread into people, however from what I have read it doesn't affect everyone, it tends to affect about 25% of people in this negative way. So if it was there then it would only have affected several of the group. Even if these person had panicked (and there is no guarantee that it would panicked those affected) then I still cant see why they would all flee the camp without the essential gear they needed. Clearly Rustem tried to put his boots on, but left before he got the second boot. I would place the probability between unlikely and possible.
What makes this more possible, IMHO, is a military test of infrasound on animals, into which our skiers unknowingly intermingled.


Quote
11 Aliens - unlikely/possible

This is another scenario where the rational part if my brain is screaming at me to rule it out. But, it could explain the scene at the tent and is something that could have caused them to panic and flee. So, I would stretch and say that it is unlikely but possible.

12. Wild Animal - unlikely

If there had been a wild animal like a bear or wolves, then it would not make sense to cut the tent and run into the night without your shoes, unless of course the animal was trying to gain access via the front of the tent. Also large bears are hibernating at this time of year.

13. Something nobody has thought of yet?

I would add
14. Meteor airburst and

15. Fatal accident concerning re-entry event of a part of a R-5 or R-7 rocket.


Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on June 07, 2020, 04:55:17 PM
1. Avalanche or snow slide - very unlikely

I think we can classify an avalanche or snow slide (even a minor one as very unlikely). The slope is not that significant, and the front of the tent was still standing. I dont believe these experiences hikes would be fooled by a fake or perceived avalanche either. If there had been a small snow slide that covered part of the tent and the hikers had to cut their way out,, then as the front of the tent was still standing and the boots/tools where just inside the front of the tent on the left and right respectively, they should have been able to reach these. They would have known that they were going to an almost certain doom by descending the slope without their gear and so for a small snow slide I cant see why they would not try to retrieve more clothing, shoes and equipment and even try to recover the tent. For these reasons I would say that this theory is very unlikely.
The primary reason why an avalanche was unlikely is that the footprints remained intact. If there was an avalanche, coming after them, there would have been no footprints.

Quote
2. The hikers died somewhere else and the scene was staged - very unlikely.

There is basically too much circumstantial detail around the various scenes and forensics. E.g Krivo bit his finger so hard that a piece of the skin was found in his mouth. This is totally consistent with the scene at the cedar. Someone who was freezing to death and who needed their hands to survive would understandably be frustrated that their hands were too cold to use. Trying to will your hands to work by biting them seems like something he would do out of desperation. The scratches and abrasions are onsistent with climbing the tree to get fire wood, or escape something. Also, there are pictures of them setting up the tent. Yes, pictures can be forged but it's unlikely. Also, I really dont see why any authority would feel they needed to go to that much trouble when there are easier ways to make people disappear. So I think it is very unlikely that the scene was fabricated.
This is debatable, as several objects are missing (notebooks, cameras), while others appeared with no apparent reason (military grade leg protection that didn't belong to anyone in the group). This tends to indicate that someone was at the scene of the event before the official search produced it's findings.

Quote
3. Toxic Chemical or gas - possible

Exposure to a toxic agent, could result in a panicked response. The panic may explain why the tent was cut, rather than using the front to exit the tent. Some may have used the exit, some may have tried to cut through the fabric. It would also explain why they did not hang around to collect clothes and equipment and left the camp site to look for a safer place. There is also, the problem with the missing toxicology report from the case files. I dont think this one can be ruled out. There are a number of potential sources for there being toxic gas present in the various theories.
I tend to favour this theory as well. Chemical gas would immediately be noticed - dififculties in breathing, blurred vision, etc - and would trigger a flight response.

Quote
4. Forced out of the tent by other people (murdered) - unlikely

The weather was bad and visibility was poor. It was dark and they would have been difficult to find. There is no apparent motive. Nothing was taken from the tent. There were no signs of other persons at any of the scenes. There were 9 hikers so I suspect they may have tried to overpower, even 1 or 2 armed persons rather than face certain death. At least they may have had a slim chance then. I think it is safe to say that this scenario is unlikely.

Motive - trespassing. Method - surrounding the tent with riflemen and forcing everybody out in the cold. Later forcing them to make a fire and a den, so everything might appear "normal" for the authorities.
I don't favour this hypotheses either, but I wouldn't rule it out.

Quote
5. Katabatic wind or extreme whether event - very unlikely

The weather was bad but not that bad and the conditions for a katabatic wind are not present. A strong wind or weather event is unlikely to require anyone to cut through the side of the tent. There would have likely been some warning and they could have better prepared themselves, but there is no sign of this. So it's very unlikely.
Mmm, perhaps, but keeping in mind that someone apparently was at the scene before Fev 26th/27th, an extreme weather event shouldn't be ruled out. For instance, if the hurricane thrown one or two skiers on the slope, for several tens or hundreds of meters, the others may have rushed to their aid. Later, after a few days, a first patrol alterted by Mansi people may have reached the tent and searched it, possibly slicing it open to check for documents hidden in the fabric. They would understand that everyone was dead, and take with them some cameras/notebooks (which ones ? why ?).
Quote
6. Poisoning/drugs - unlikely

The group had already been hiking and camping for several nights. I think that if their food was contaminated or bad, then its unlikely that they would have made it as far as they did without one or more members of the group falling ill. Given how experienced the hikers were they would have known the dangers of experimenting with drugs under these circumstances too, so I dont think they would have all taken a drug of some kind. It's not impossible but it's unlikely.
I also consider this theory unlikely.

Quote
7. Ball lightning - very unlikely

There is simply no logical reason why ball lightning would induce them to cut their tent from the inside, and leave the camp without adequate clothing. It's very unlikely.
Mmm, if the ball lightning was directly above the tent, and slowly descending over them, while emitting small electrical discharges, everybody would freak out and exit ASAP. A ball lightning explosion may have caused "Zolotaryov"'s and Lyubidina's injuries. I seem to remember a Romanian event from 1920-22, from a local UFO book called "the monster comes at dusk". It is about two ball lightnings (or something like that), hovering above a small village. At dusk, they both enter a house, through the chimney, and explode inside, producing severe burns and fractures to the inhabitants (two women).
Quote
8. Internal squabble/in fighting - very unlikely

There are signs of a squabble. Minor injuries to knuckles, hands, face, lips etc, but on this night they were also in good humour as the pamphlet indicates. They also worked together as a team and they knew the dangers that fighting could result in. Even if there had been some kind of internal squabble and fight, there would be no reason for them all to leave the safety of the tent and the camp site, and I would expect more of them to have collected, boots, clothing and equipment. The evidence doesn't fit so I think this scenario is very unlikely.
Perhaps, but coupled with infrasound, this may have some truth in it.
Quote
9. Yeti - unlikely/possible

The rational part of my brain would lead me to think that this scenario is unlikely. However, there is evidence that fits such circumstances, as described in the Yeti topic/thread, So I am going to stretch and say that the probability may lie between unlikely and possible. I would not expect the group to try to cut the tent to escape such a creature as it would be sensible to try and stay hidden in the tent and hope that it went away. However if such a creature was there and was trying to grab at the hikers through the front of the tent, then some may have panicked and cut the tent to escape, then fled the camp. It might also explain why they didnt grab the axe to use as a weapon as it was near tge entrance to the tent.
The Menk/Almas/Yeti seems to be very powerfull. I have read about an Indian Yeti killing 30 people (that wanted to catch him) in the XVIIIth century. However, there is no definitive evidence that the Menk exists... Still, at some level I think this is possible. Even using mountain gorillas for some military experiment, this is possible to have happened.

Quote
10. Infrasound - unlikely/possible

It is possible that conditions that night resulted in the generation of infrasound. Infrasound can instill a feeling of dread into people, however from what I have read it doesn't affect everyone, it tends to affect about 25% of people in this negative way. So if it was there then it would only have affected several of the group. Even if these person had panicked (and there is no guarantee that it would panicked those affected) then I still cant see why they would all flee the camp without the essential gear they needed. Clearly Rustem tried to put his boots on, but left before he got the second boot. I would place the probability between unlikely and possible.
What makes this more possible, IMHO, is a military test of infrasound on animals, into which our skiers unknowingly intermingled.


Quote
11 Aliens - unlikely/possible

This is another scenario where the rational part if my brain is screaming at me to rule it out. But, it could explain the scene at the tent and is something that could have caused them to panic and flee. So, I would stretch and say that it is unlikely but possible.

12. Wild Animal - unlikely

If there had been a wild animal like a bear or wolves, then it would not make sense to cut the tent and run into the night without your shoes, unless of course the animal was trying to gain access via the front of the tent. Also large bears are hibernating at this time of year.

13. Something nobody has thought of yet?

I would add
14. Meteor airburst and

15. Fatal accident concerning re-entry event of a part of a R-5 or R-7 rocket.

The foot prints are another good reason that the avalanche theory is very unlikely.

It is possible that the scene was discovered by others before the search party got there.  I wouldn't rule it out, but I still think its unlikely.  The main point I was trying to make is that the events actually happened in this place where they were found.

I thi k if you had an infrasound weapon Kholat Syakhl would not be a good place or the best time to test such a weapon.    There is potential for natural infrasound though.  It's possible but I still think unlikely.

On the extreme weather event it is difficult to imagine that any of the group would feel the need to cut through the side of the tent.  The cuts were made through some of the seams which would have been more difficult to cut,    of the tent was damaged by wind, or some of the group were injured by tge wind, it would still make more sense to use tge normal exit.

The Yeti theory is kind of perplexing for me,  if there was already sufficient evidence on their existence then I would think that this fits this scenario quite well.  From the accounts I have seen many witnesses suggest that they are territorial and try to drive people away.  It fits well.  Alien theories are obviously just as strange, but I think more unlikely than possible.

The most rational explanation does seem to be the toxic gas .  Possibly from some kind of test. This links back to one of my first thoughts on what happened  - low yield neutron weapon and the toxic cloud it could have created,  it could also be a chemical weapon test loaded with a radioactive tracer like Sr90.  But although toxic gas seems more rational my sub conscious mind, the bit that does all those clever logical summing activities without even thinking about it, and which requires the hard work to prove that it was right is pushing me away from the toxic gas idea.

I think if there had been a meteor or small air burst it would have been an amazing site, but I also think that it would not require anyone to cut the tent, or leave the camp site,  I would imagine that they would either have seen and felt an interesting fireworks display, or have been killed at the tent.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 08, 2020, 01:34:28 AM

The foot prints are another good reason that the avalanche theory is very unlikely.

It is possible that the scene was discovered by others before the search party got there.  I wouldn't rule it out, but I still think its unlikely.  The main point I was trying to make is that the events actually happened in this place where they were found.

I thi k if you had an infrasound weapon Kholat Syakhl would not be a good place or the best time to test such a weapon.    There is potential for natural infrasound though.  It's possible but I still think unlikely.

On the extreme weather event it is difficult to imagine that any of the group would feel the need to cut through the side of the tent.  The cuts were made through some of the seams which would have been more difficult to cut,    of the tent was damaged by wind, or some of the group were injured by tge wind, it would still make more sense to use tge normal exit.

The Yeti theory is kind of perplexing for me,  if there was already sufficient evidence on their existence then I would think that this fits this scenario quite well.  From the accounts I have seen many witnesses suggest that they are territorial and try to drive people away.  It fits well.  Alien theories are obviously just as strange, but I think more unlikely than possible.

The most rational explanation does seem to be the toxic gas .  Possibly from some kind of test. This links back to one of my first thoughts on what happened  - low yield neutron weapon and the toxic cloud it could have created,  it could also be a chemical weapon test loaded with a radioactive tracer like Sr90.  But although toxic gas seems more rational my sub conscious mind, the bit that does all those clever logical summing activities without even thinking about it, and which requires the hard work to prove that it was right is pushing me away from the toxic gas idea.

I think if there had been a meteor or small air burst it would have been an amazing site, but I also think that it would not require anyone to cut the tent, or leave the camp site,  I would imagine that they would either have seen and felt an interesting fireworks display, or have been killed at the tent.

Regards

Star man

- Yes, the avalanche theory is so unlikely that I wonder why did the Russian investigators chosen it in 2019 as one of the 3 "most likely" theories. In fact what they chose (avalanche, snow slab and hurricane) were amongst the least likely to address the existent facts.

- If someone was before in the tent , that would suggest to me a strong indication of a cover-up. Perhaps they've stumbled into a military experiment , or into the crash site of a missile/plane, and what they saw was so secret that they needed to be silenced ? After all, the UR-100 fragments found on the pass indicate that military tests WERE done there, on a later date. So the place probably fits the profile of a test range.

- Infrasound may have been key in another unfortunate accident, at Khamar-Daban. But mystery still hangs over that incident as well. (https://www.rbth.com/history/330020-russia-dyatlov-pass-mystery-analogues?fbclid=IwAR0RgqXqyrVfeoKwDxSciuWR-vjoSkrs-d0nyhSSly2BnXkIkkcaB_wK0Cc)

- The Yeti/giant ape theory could work if considering the area as military testing site, and weapons being tested there. By the way, do you have more info about the meteorological rocket mentioned in the radiograms ? If was apparently "seen from Ivdel on Fev 1st"... (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-136-198)

- Toxic gas would force them out quickly, and permit their return later - it does fit a lot of boxes...

- Airburst could have been provoked by a rocket or meteor (more info here: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=417.msg9025#msg9025). Either of them could be seen with the naked eye by the ones standing outside (Thibeaux ? "Zolotaryov" ? Would "Zolotaryov" attempt to take a picture of the incoming object ?). They would immediately scream at the others - "incoming meteor - get out now" , or "rocket attack - get out now!", causing panic and terror. Some of them would be badly injured , but not necessarily all of them, because the shape of the explosion wouldn't necessarily affect them all...

Best Regards,
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on June 08, 2020, 04:07:18 PM

The foot prints are another good reason that the avalanche theory is very unlikely.

It is possible that the scene was discovered by others before the search party got there.  I wouldn't rule it out, but I still think its unlikely.  The main point I was trying to make is that the events actually happened in this place where they were found.

I thi k if you had an infrasound weapon Kholat Syakhl would not be a good place or the best time to test such a weapon.    There is potential for natural infrasound though.  It's possible but I still think unlikely.

On the extreme weather event it is difficult to imagine that any of the group would feel the need to cut through the side of the tent.  The cuts were made through some of the seams which would have been more difficult to cut,    of the tent was damaged by wind, or some of the group were injured by tge wind, it would still make more sense to use tge normal exit.

The Yeti theory is kind of perplexing for me,  if there was already sufficient evidence on their existence then I would think that this fits this scenario quite well.  From the accounts I have seen many witnesses suggest that they are territorial and try to drive people away.  It fits well.  Alien theories are obviously just as strange, but I think more unlikely than possible.

The most rational explanation does seem to be the toxic gas .  Possibly from some kind of test. This links back to one of my first thoughts on what happened  - low yield neutron weapon and the toxic cloud it could have created,  it could also be a chemical weapon test loaded with a radioactive tracer like Sr90.  But although toxic gas seems more rational my sub conscious mind, the bit that does all those clever logical summing activities without even thinking about it, and which requires the hard work to prove that it was right is pushing me away from the toxic gas idea.

I think if there had been a meteor or small air burst it would have been an amazing site, but I also think that it would not require anyone to cut the tent, or leave the camp site,  I would imagine that they would either have seen and felt an interesting fireworks display, or have been killed at the tent.

Regards

Star man

- Yes, the avalanche theory is so unlikely that I wonder why did the Russian investigators chosen it in 2019 as one of the 3 "most likely" theories. In fact what they chose (avalanche, snow slab and hurricane) were amongst the least likely to address the existent facts.

- If someone was before in the tent , that would suggest to me a strong indication of a cover-up. Perhaps they've stumbled into a military experiment , or into the crash site of a missile/plane, and what they saw was so secret that they needed to be silenced ? After all, the UR-100 fragments found on the pass indicate that military tests WERE done there, on a later date. So the place probably fits the profile of a test range.

- Infrasound may have been key in another unfortunate accident, at Khamar-Daban. But mystery still hangs over that incident as well. (https://www.rbth.com/history/330020-russia-dyatlov-pass-mystery-analogues?fbclid=IwAR0RgqXqyrVfeoKwDxSciuWR-vjoSkrs-d0nyhSSly2BnXkIkkcaB_wK0Cc)

- The Yeti/giant ape theory could work if considering the area as military testing site, and weapons being tested there. By the way, do you have more info about the meteorological rocket mentioned in the radiograms ? If was apparently "seen from Ivdel on Fev 1st"... (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-136-198)

- Toxic gas would force them out quickly, and permit their return later - it does fit a lot of boxes...

- Airburst could have been provoked by a rocket or meteor (more info here: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=417.msg9025#msg9025). Either of them could be seen with the naked eye by the ones standing outside (Thibeaux ? "Zolotaryov" ? Would "Zolotaryov" attempt to take a picture of the incoming object ?). They would immediately scream at the others - "incoming meteor - get out now" , or "rocket attack - get out now!", causing panic and terror. Some of them would be badly injured , but not necessarily all of them, because the shape of the explosion wouldn't necessarily affect them all...

Best Regards,

Sorry, I dont have any more info on the meteorological rocket. 

I dont think they were murdered.  If they had been targeted I dont think they would have ever been found.  If the military had cleaned up the site they would have cleaned up the bodies and tent too.  The hikers would have simply disappeared, never to be seen again.  Allowing them to wander off into the dark would have given them a chance to survive and tell the tale.  They could have built a shelter and made it through the night and then returned to the tent, repaired it and made their way back.

I am still looking for further evidence of the Yeti.  I might not find any.  But it does seem to fit together.  Was the note in the evening otorten simply a joke?  Why did they deviate from their planned route and head away from the tree line?  Why did they not travel so far that day.  The weather may have been a factor, but there also may have been other factors.  I am interested in the foot prints, and lack of detailed forensics around them.  There could be some hidden information there.

At the end of the day it may not have been a Yeti, and Yetis may simply be a myth.  When and if I feel I have completely exhausted my search I will stop.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 08, 2020, 11:35:46 PM

Sorry, I dont have any more info on the meteorological rocket. 

I dont think they were murdered.  If they had been targeted I dont think they would have ever been found.
Who knows ? I myself try to keep an open mind about all the theories. I am leaning towards the chemical weapon delivered by rocket, but others may be possible also. loco1
For instance, the discovery of the bodies and the assassination theory: from what I know, the Dyatlov Group was farely well known, and their endeavour well known as well. "Making them dissapear" would have pointed even more towards the state/KGB. As it was, most explanations tended towards a natural explanation of their deaths - exactly what the KGB would have wanted.

Quote
Allowing them to wander off into the dark would have given them a chance to survive and tell the tale.  They could have built a shelter and made it through the night and then returned to the tent, repaired it and made their way back.
A (remote but existent) possibility is that they did all that at gun point. The slope, the fire, the den, the (failed) return to the tent. Everything could have been forced at gun point with the intention of making the scene more credible and/or making accommodation for a more lengthy interrogation. The (failed) return to the tent might have been forced at gun point as well, maybe with a few words added "whoever reaches the tent gets left alive".

Quote
I am still looking for further evidence of the Yeti.  I might not find any.  But it does seem to fit together.  Was the note in the evening otorten simply a joke?  Why did they deviate from their planned route and head away from the tree line?  Why did they not travel so far that day.  The weather may have been a factor, but there also may have been other factors.  I am interested in the foot prints, and lack of detailed forensics around them.  There could be some hidden information there.

From what I remember, during Discovery Channel's 2014 documentary on Dyatlov Pass (the one about the killer Yeti), there were two members of the search party that said there were other footprints which were not photographed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFEkcJLmDQA the part about the footprints starts at 14:25). Those footprints were "larger" then the others. Also during the same documentary, the cast recorded an unknown sound coming from the forest, sound which, at the end of the show could not be identified to any living creature.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on June 09, 2020, 05:16:52 PM

Sorry, I dont have any more info on the meteorological rocket. 

I dont think they were murdered.  If they had been targeted I dont think they would have ever been found.
Who knows ? I myself try to keep an open mind about all the theories. I am leaning towards the chemical weapon delivered by rocket, but others may be possible also. loco1
For instance, the discovery of the bodies and the assassination theory: from what I know, the Dyatlov Group was farely well known, and their endeavour well known as well. "Making them dissapear" would have pointed even more towards the state/KGB. As it was, most explanations tended towards a natural explanation of their deaths - exactly what the KGB would have wanted.

Quote
Allowing them to wander off into the dark would have given them a chance to survive and tell the tale.  They could have built a shelter and made it through the night and then returned to the tent, repaired it and made their way back.
A (remote but existent) possibility is that they did all that at gun point. The slope, the fire, the den, the (failed) return to the tent. Everything could have been forced at gun point with the intention of making the scene more credible and/or making accommodation for a more lengthy interrogation. The (failed) return to the tent might have been forced at gun point as well, maybe with a few words added "whoever reaches the tent gets left alive".

Quote
I am still looking for further evidence of the Yeti.  I might not find any.  But it does seem to fit together.  Was the note in the evening otorten simply a joke?  Why did they deviate from their planned route and head away from the tree line?  Why did they not travel so far that day.  The weather may have been a factor, but there also may have been other factors.  I am interested in the foot prints, and lack of detailed forensics around them.  There could be some hidden information there.

From what I remember, during Discovery Channel's 2014 documentary on Dyatlov Pass (the one about the killer Yeti), there were two members of the search party that said there were other footprints which were not photographed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFEkcJLmDQA the part about the footprints starts at 14:25). Those footprints were "larger" then the others. Also during the same documentary, the cast recorded an unknown sound coming from the forest, sound which, at the end of the show could not be identified to any living creature.

I understand why some think that they may have been forced  under gun point.  It's not impossible, but I think it is very unlikely given the evidence at the scene. 

I dont put much stock into the discovery channel documentary.  My understanding is that the two who were interviewed (think one was Sharavin) but not sure.  Their description of the foot prints was likely miss translated.  Possibly deliberately.  It wasnt what they actually said.  Well it was for a Halloween moster weekend show.  Maybe one day the truth will be found.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 09, 2020, 11:39:54 PM
I understand why some think that they may have been forced  under gun point.  It's not impossible, but I think it is very unlikely given the evidence at the scene. 
Indeed. Still, possibility exists that the scene had been "cleaned up" after the killings.
Quote
I dont put much stock into the discovery channel documentary.  My understanding is that the two who were interviewed (think one was Sharavin) but not sure.  Their description of the foot prints was likely miss translated.  Possibly deliberately.  It wasnt what they actually said.  Well it was for a Halloween moster weekend show.  Maybe one day the truth will be found.
I don't put either. Still some eye witness accounts are always interesting.

Any take on the strange sound apparently recorded during the documentary ?

Best Regards,
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on June 10, 2020, 05:05:24 PM
I understand why some think that they may have been forced  under gun point.  It's not impossible, but I think it is very unlikely given the evidence at the scene. 
Indeed. Still, possibility exists that the scene had been "cleaned up" after the killings.
Quote
I dont put much stock into the discovery channel documentary.  My understanding is that the two who were interviewed (think one was Sharavin) but not sure.  Their description of the foot prints was likely miss translated.  Possibly deliberately.  It wasnt what they actually said.  Well it was for a Halloween moster weekend show.  Maybe one day the truth will be found.
I don't put either. Still some eye witness accounts are always interesting.

Any take on the strange sound apparently recorded during the documentary ?

Best Regards,

On the strange sound recorded in the documentary - it is difficult to know if it was real or fabricated.  I think the credibility of the programme was damaged by the editors.  The Expedition unknown documentary that Teddy was in is a much better documentary.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 11, 2020, 03:40:20 AM
On the strange sound recorded in the documentary - it is difficult to know if it was real or fabricated.  I think the credibility of the programme was damaged by the editors.  The Expedition unknown documentary that Teddy was in is a much better documentary.
Yes, I've seen that one as well. Much better indeed.

On the Abominable Snowman theory, a chain o events could be the following:
I -
a) the skiers heard cracking noises on Jan 31st and Fev 1st, in the forest around them. Someone made a blurry photo with Thibeaux-Brignolle's camera of a shadowy figure standing near a tree. They laughed at first and said it must have been a very tall Mansi hunter, but decided to keep watch and to protect themselves better , just in case.
b) the skiers made a small detour from their intended path, in order to camp on the barren mountain slope of Kholat Syakl. From there, they could easily observe the surroundings , out to 1km or more, therefore no stranger could approach them without being spotted.
c) the skiers made camp as planned, and established a program of watches, with one person standing guard outside the tent at all times.

II-
d) they eat dinner at around 19:00. They start making their watch program.
e) at around 22:00, it's "Zolotaryov's" turn to keep watch. With him exits also Thibeaux-Brignolles, for a call of nature. Both are well dressed.

Suddenly, a Yeti appears at 3 meters in front of "Zolotaryov". The Yeti starts making ear-splitting sounds, while the people inside the tent understand that the shadow from the forest has returned and it's attacking their comerades. In a hurry, they split the canvas of the tent, to get out and help their two friends. Unfortunately , it's too late for "Zolotaryov": he is punched with immense strength into the chest, and suffers multiple fractures. His friends rush to battle the enemy: with knives and bare fists, they surround the Yeti and fight back. The Yeti backs down under the relentless attack of the courageous friends !

f) but, during the battle, a second Yeti appears.
g) the group recovers "Zolotaryov"'s , still animated, body, but Lyubidina is punched hard as well - she suffers multiple fractures from the punch as well.
h) the second Yeti tilts the balance in the animal's favour: the group of skiers slowly backs down, down on the slope. During the battle, they have lost all but one of their knives. There is no time to take anything from the tent: the matches and flashlights were already on their pockets when they heard the ear-splitting noise.

III-
i) Dyatlov carries "Zolotaryov", Slobodin carries Lyubidina, while Doroschenko and Krivonishenko with Zina, Kolevatov and Thibeaux-Brignolles face the enemy, while going backwards down the slope.
j) Slobodin stumbles under the weight and is caught by one Yeti and his skull is crushed. He is still alive, but needs to be carried by Doroschenko. Krivonishenko takes Lyubidina.
k) Zina, Kolevatov and Thibeaux-Brignolles charge the closest Yeti (which was previously wounded), and stab it multiple times. However, all three of them suffer serious wounds - Kolevatov has his neck deformed, Zina receives a swipe on her abdomen, Thibeaux has his skull hit and internal bleeding. However with ear-splitting sounds, the enemy retreats. Both Yetis disappear into the darkness, as the group of skiers continues to descend the slope.
 (they are now half way).

IV-
l) thirty minutes later, the group arrives at the bottom of a cedar tree. They start a small fire and search for the enemy. Nothing is found.
m) it becomes painfully obvious that they won't survive the night unless they get warmer clothes from the tent.
n) Dyatlov, Zina and Doroschenko build a small den, onto which they place their heavy wounded.
p) Krivonishenko and Doroschenko try to keep the fire going. They are poorly dressed and feel the cold badly.
q) Dyatlov decides to try for the tent - with him goes Zina and Slobodin. Unfortunately, none of them reaches the tent - they freeze on the way.
r) everybody freezes
s) the Mansi hunters find the bodies on the slope and near the cedar tree, several days into the battle. They give word to the nearest military unit.
t) a group of soldiers examines the area somewhere around Fev 10th. They take several cameras, films and notebooks. Through an oversight, they leave behind a pair of leg-bracers. They cover their tracks around the tent and down the slope. They inform their superiors about what they found.
-----

Problems:
- the Yeti isn't a scientifically recognized animal
- 99% of the existing Yeti sightings describe a peacefull animal. The remaining 1% concern cases in which the Yeti was cornered, attacked or otherwise threatened by humans.
- no snow trashed around at the scene of the tent (to indicate a fight)
- the footprints as tracked by the official search team involve "8 or 9 set of tracks" going down the slope - therefore the heavily wounded (such as "Zolytariov") did make steps themselves
- the Yeti's can't be replaced by humans in a similar scenario
- the persistence of radiation on clothes even after months under the snow and weeks in running water

Best,


Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on June 13, 2020, 05:46:41 PM
On the strange sound recorded in the documentary - it is difficult to know if it was real or fabricated.  I think the credibility of the programme was damaged by the editors.  The Expedition unknown documentary that Teddy was in is a much better documentary.
Yes, I've seen that one as well. Much better indeed.

On the Abominable Snowman theory, a chain o events could be the following:
I -
a) the skiers heard cracking noises on Jan 31st and Fev 1st, in the forest around them. Someone made a blurry photo with Thibeaux-Brignolle's camera of a shadowy figure standing near a tree. They laughed at first and said it must have been a very tall Mansi hunter, but decided to keep watch and to protect themselves better , just in case.
b) the skiers made a small detour from their intended path, in order to camp on the barren mountain slope of Kholat Syakl. From there, they could easily observe the surroundings , out to 1km or more, therefore no stranger could approach them without being spotted.
c) the skiers made camp as planned, and established a program of watches, with one person standing guard outside the tent at all times.

II-
d) they eat dinner at around 19:00. They start making their watch program.
e) at around 22:00, it's "Zolotaryov's" turn to keep watch. With him exits also Thibeaux-Brignolles, for a call of nature. Both are well dressed.

Suddenly, a Yeti appears at 3 meters in front of "Zolotaryov". The Yeti starts making ear-splitting sounds, while the people inside the tent understand that the shadow from the forest has returned and it's attacking their comerades. In a hurry, they split the canvas of the tent, to get out and help their two friends. Unfortunately , it's too late for "Zolotaryov": he is punched with immense strength into the chest, and suffers multiple fractures. His friends rush to battle the enemy: with knives and bare fists, they surround the Yeti and fight back. The Yeti backs down under the relentless attack of the courageous friends !

f) but, during the battle, a second Yeti appears.
g) the group recovers "Zolotaryov"'s , still animated, body, but Lyubidina is punched hard as well - she suffers multiple fractures from the punch as well.
h) the second Yeti tilts the balance in the animal's favour: the group of skiers slowly backs down, down on the slope. During the battle, they have lost all but one of their knives. There is no time to take anything from the tent: the matches and flashlights were already on their pockets when they heard the ear-splitting noise.

III-
i) Dyatlov carries "Zolotaryov", Slobodin carries Lyubidina, while Doroschenko and Krivonishenko with Zina, Kolevatov and Thibeaux-Brignolles face the enemy, while going backwards down the slope.
j) Slobodin stumbles under the weight and is caught by one Yeti and his skull is crushed. He is still alive, but needs to be carried by Doroschenko. Krivonishenko takes Lyubidina.
k) Zina, Kolevatov and Thibeaux-Brignolles charge the closest Yeti (which was previously wounded), and stab it multiple times. However, all three of them suffer serious wounds - Kolevatov has his neck deformed, Zina receives a swipe on her abdomen, Thibeaux has his skull hit and internal bleeding. However with ear-splitting sounds, the enemy retreats. Both Yetis disappear into the darkness, as the group of skiers continues to descend the slope.
 (they are now half way).

IV-
l) thirty minutes later, the group arrives at the bottom of a cedar tree. They start a small fire and search for the enemy. Nothing is found.
m) it becomes painfully obvious that they won't survive the night unless they get warmer clothes from the tent.
n) Dyatlov, Zina and Doroschenko build a small den, onto which they place their heavy wounded.
p) Krivonishenko and Doroschenko try to keep the fire going. They are poorly dressed and feel the cold badly.
q) Dyatlov decides to try for the tent - with him goes Zina and Slobodin. Unfortunately, none of them reaches the tent - they freeze on the way.
r) everybody freezes
s) the Mansi hunters find the bodies on the slope and near the cedar tree, several days into the battle. They give word to the nearest military unit.
t) a group of soldiers examines the area somewhere around Fev 10th. They take several cameras, films and notebooks. Through an oversight, they leave behind a pair of leg-bracers. They cover their tracks around the tent and down the slope. They inform their superiors about what they found.
-----

Problems:
- the Yeti isn't a scientifically recognized animal
- 99% of the existing Yeti sightings describe a peacefull animal. The remaining 1% concern cases in which the Yeti was cornered, attacked or otherwise threatened by humans.
- no snow trashed around at the scene of the tent (to indicate a fight)
- the footprints as tracked by the official search team involve "8 or 9 set of tracks" going down the slope - therefore the heavily wounded (such as "Zolytariov") did make steps themselves
- the Yeti's can't be replaced by humans in a similar scenario
- the persistence of radiation on clothes even after months under the snow and weeks in running water

Best,

Not bac.  I had something similar in mind, but with some alterations:

The photo of the dark figure is probably one of the hikers.  I really dont think it is a Yeti.  It's possible that the hikers may have observed something on the final day though.  Maybe one or two of the hikers had seen something, and maybe they had decide"t to camp on higher ground to get a good vantage point.  Thibo and Semyon could have been in watch as you say.  Maybe they tried to make light of it and wrote the pamphlet in just.  I suspect that someone was outside when it started.  Maybe they had spotted one and fled down the mountain, sounding the alarm as they went.  There are reports of such creatures trying to scare people away by throwing rocks and logs at them, banging on the side of cabins and making noises etc.  If one or more hikers were outside, then the toggles on the foor of the tent would have been undone.  If one of the creatures was at the door and began put their hands into the tent feeling about, then I imagine that could have prompted a panic resulting in the need to make a new exit from the tent, by cutting a hole and then pulling at it to make it big enough to get through.  On their decent they are followed and there are several confrontations, where the hikers try to scare off the creatures.  I agree that Rustem may have fallen here have receiving several hard blows and having significant blow to the head while he was lying on the ground.  He never recovers and freezes to death.  The others make it to the cedar and climb it for safety initially.  They wait for the creatures to go and by this time the Yuris are in a bad state.  They collect firewood from the cedar and build a fire, but it's not enough to stop the Yuris from dying.  They remove the clothing and consider making a better shelter in the ravine where there is less wind and more snow.  They cut the branches around the cedar for the shelter, using the fire to keep warm.  They intend to move the fire at some point.  Before the shelter is finished, Lyuda , Semyon and Thibo are attacked again.  They are dragged about, and then receive some heavy blows to their chests while lying on the ground.  Thibo's skull is crushed while he is lying on the ground, his head being pushed into the snow.  The others fight the attackers off, possibly using the knife and the attacker retreats.  At some point Dyatlov and Zina decide to go back to the tent, maybe before or  after the attack, or maybe they never get to the cedar and just become lost on the hill and freeze.

Kolevatov, is the last one left alive.  He has received some injuries trying to defend his friends. He too eventually freezes, but not before Lyuda and Semyon die of their injuries and the cold.

You quote valid points against such a theory.  On the foot prints though, a much heavier creature is likely to have much deeper foot prints, these are less likely to be exposed as pillar prints.  Strangely, they may have instead been filled in by drifting snow, as all raised foot prints would likely be initially.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 14, 2020, 03:44:46 AM
Nice account of the events.

A key part of this is: how do the Yetis find the tent at night and why do they attack the skiers ?
My explanation for such an event would be that the Yetis tracked the skiers based on the senses of smell and hearing, slowly approaching the tent , by coming from the forest.
To explain the aggressive behaviour, I would posit that some sort of military experiment using rockets and/or mysterious fireorbs startled the Yetis, that felt threatened and considered the tresspassers (the Dyatlov Group) as a danger.

What do you think ?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on June 15, 2020, 06:08:37 PM
If there had been such creatures there they would probably have been watching them as they travelled.  Accounts suggest that they try to scare off people by throwing things and banging on things and making strange noises.  Smell, eye sight noise too I suspect.

I dont think it would need military to make them aggressive.  But who knows.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 16, 2020, 09:49:07 AM
Do you have a candidate for a possible Yeti ?
I.e. Gigantopithecus, Homo Neanderthalensis ?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Morski on June 16, 2020, 10:54:49 AM
My bet is on Nikolai Thibo  whist1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on June 16, 2020, 04:54:16 PM
Do you have a candidate for a possible Yeti ?
I.e. Gigantopithecus, Homo Neanderthalensis ?

TBH I don't know.  I wouldn't rule out some kind of mountain gorilla.  An exotic pet let loose, or an escaped animal from a zoo/circus.  A Gorilla used for military test etc.  A normal mountain gorilla is capable of the injuries of the rav 4.  There were suppose to have been state sponsored experiments to cross breed apes and humans in the 1920s.  The bigfoot genome project claims that they have sequenced uncontaminated DNA  from a bigfoot under observation and found that it was a hybrid human/ape.   Mitochondrial DNA entirely human, with main helix sequences a mix of ape and human, indicating an ape has bread with a female human.   Naturally there is much scepticism around their claims.  It is interesting to look at though.  So there are possible candidates, in addition to the prehistoric ones.

The key to all of this though is finding evidence, which is difficult.  There is evidence that could support the theory, but it isn't explicit to an attack by a yeti or other ape like creature,  explicit evidence is needed.  I think if a body were to be found then that might increase the validity of the Yeti attack theory.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on June 16, 2020, 04:55:38 PM
My bet is on Nikolai Thibo  whist1

I have actually seen some humans that might pass for a Yeti.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Morski on June 16, 2020, 10:44:02 PM
My bet is on Nikolai Thibo  whist1

I have actually seen some humans that might pass for a Yeti.

Regards

Star man

Yeah, there are some authentic candidates:
(https://i.ibb.co/bzj5KzP/Nikolai-Valuev-8.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 17, 2020, 05:07:21 AM
Do you have a candidate for a possible Yeti ?
I.e. Gigantopithecus, Homo Neanderthalensis ?

TBH I don't know.  I wouldn't rule out some kind of mountain gorilla.  An exotic pet let loose, or an escaped animal from a zoo/circus.  A Gorilla used for military test etc.  A normal mountain gorilla is capable of the injuries of the rav 4.  There were suppose to have been state sponsored experiments to cross breed apes and humans in the 1920s.  The bigfoot genome project claims that they have sequenced uncontaminated DNA  from a bigfoot under observation and found that it was a hybrid human/ape.   Mitochondrial DNA entirely human, with main helix sequences a mix of ape and human, indicating an ape has bread with a female human.   Naturally there is much scepticism around their claims.  It is interesting to look at though.  So there are possible candidates, in addition to the prehistoric ones.

The key to all of this though is finding evidence, which is difficult.  There is evidence that could support the theory, but it isn't explicit to an attack by a yeti or other ape like creature,  explicit evidence is needed.  I think if a body were to be found then that might increase the validity of the Yeti attack theory.

Regards

Star man
Thinking about a mountain gorilla we would need to include some level of military involvement. Do you think that the military could have placed such animals near Dyatlov Pass ?

I was thinking about other living fossils - the Coelacanth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coelacanth), the Mega-mouth shark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megamouth_shark). Both were considered along time extinct... Still they appeared after so much time.

For some time I thought a frozen body of a Yeti has been preserved (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Iceman). However, current consensus is that it was all an elaborate hoax...

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on June 17, 2020, 03:58:40 PM
My bet is on Nikolai Thibo  whist1

I have actually seen some humans that might pass for a Yeti.

Regards

Star man

Yeah, there are some authentic candidates:
(https://i.ibb.co/bzj5KzP/Nikolai-Valuev-8.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

Not a bad candidate.  lol2

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on June 17, 2020, 04:09:35 PM
Do you have a candidate for a possible Yeti ?
I.e. Gigantopithecus, Homo Neanderthalensis ?

TBH I don't know.  I wouldn't rule out some kind of mountain gorilla.  An exotic pet let loose, or an escaped animal from a zoo/circus.  A Gorilla used for military test etc.  A normal mountain gorilla is capable of the injuries of the rav 4.  There were suppose to have been state sponsored experiments to cross breed apes and humans in the 1920s.  The bigfoot genome project claims that they have sequenced uncontaminated DNA  from a bigfoot under observation and found that it was a hybrid human/ape.   Mitochondrial DNA entirely human, with main helix sequences a mix of ape and human, indicating an ape has bread with a female human.   Naturally there is much scepticism around their claims.  It is interesting to look at though.  So there are possible candidates, in addition to the prehistoric ones.

The key to all of this though is finding evidence, which is difficult.  There is evidence that could support the theory, but it isn't explicit to an attack by a yeti or other ape like creature,  explicit evidence is needed.  I think if a body were to be found then that might increase the validity of the Yeti attack theory.

Regards

Star man
Thinking about a mountain gorilla we would need to include some level of military involvement. Do you think that the military could have placed such animals near Dyatlov Pass ?

I was thinking about other living fossils - the Coelacanth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coelacanth), the Mega-mouth shark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megamouth_shark). Both were considered along time extinct... Still they appeared after so much time.

For some time I thought a frozen body of a Yeti has been preserved (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Iceman). However, current consensus is that it was all an elaborate hoax...

In one of my previous threads I considered the possibility of apes used in a military test.  A n bomb test.  Apes were used extensively for tests during this period.  What better way to test the effects of a n bomb on humans than by using apes with very similar anatomy.  Note that n bombs were designed specifically to take out people, stop advancing armies and leave the infrastructure with little damage.  If you were going to test such a device, it would be pointless without some test subjects.  But I am not ruling out historical creatures and traditional Yetis.  There have been many sightings by credible witnesses.  Unfortunately there have probably been even more hoaxes and made up stories.

Jury is still out without the evidence,  question is can any evidence be found?  If not then maybe it wasnt a Yeti, or ape.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 18, 2020, 06:52:40 AM
Do you have a candidate for a possible Yeti ?
I.e. Gigantopithecus, Homo Neanderthalensis ?

TBH I don't know.  I wouldn't rule out some kind of mountain gorilla.  An exotic pet let loose, or an escaped animal from a zoo/circus.  A Gorilla used for military test etc.  A normal mountain gorilla is capable of the injuries of the rav 4.  There were suppose to have been state sponsored experiments to cross breed apes and humans in the 1920s.  The bigfoot genome project claims that they have sequenced uncontaminated DNA  from a bigfoot under observation and found that it was a hybrid human/ape.   Mitochondrial DNA entirely human, with main helix sequences a mix of ape and human, indicating an ape has bread with a female human.   Naturally there is much scepticism around their claims.  It is interesting to look at though.  So there are possible candidates, in addition to the prehistoric ones.

The key to all of this though is finding evidence, which is difficult.  There is evidence that could support the theory, but it isn't explicit to an attack by a yeti or other ape like creature,  explicit evidence is needed.  I think if a body were to be found then that might increase the validity of the Yeti attack theory.

Regards

Star man
Thinking about a mountain gorilla we would need to include some level of military involvement. Do you think that the military could have placed such animals near Dyatlov Pass ?

I was thinking about other living fossils - the Coelacanth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coelacanth), the Mega-mouth shark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megamouth_shark). Both were considered along time extinct... Still they appeared after so much time.

For some time I thought a frozen body of a Yeti has been preserved (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Iceman). However, current consensus is that it was all an elaborate hoax...

In one of my previous threads I considered the possibility of apes used in a military test.  A n bomb test.  Apes were used extensively for tests during this period.  What better way to test the effects of a n bomb on humans than by using apes with very similar anatomy.  Note that n bombs were designed specifically to take out people, stop advancing armies and leave the infrastructure with little damage.  If you were going to test such a device, it would be pointless without some test subjects.  But I am not ruling out historical creatures and traditional Yetis.  There have been many sightings by credible witnesses.  Unfortunately there have probably been even more hoaxes and made up stories.

Jury is still out without the evidence,  question is can any evidence be found?  If not then maybe it wasnt a Yeti, or ape.

Regards

Star man

Let's discuss the few facts about the Yeti that we have , in conjunction with DPI.

First, the curious photo no17. Many say it's Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle. However, other say that the snow is over 2ft deep in that photo, making the person in picture stand at around 190-200cm (because the knees are clearly above the snow line, by some 10-20cm.) Was Nikolai that tall ?

Second, the curious mention of snowmen exist from the Evening Otorten. All the other cut-outs from the paper are linked to actual events. Therefore it is reasonable to infer that the snowman in question is also linked to a real event. Perhaps they've seen someone in the woods, and barely managed to photograph him...

Best,
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Morski on June 18, 2020, 11:15:52 AM
Do you have a candidate for a possible Yeti ?
I.e. Gigantopithecus, Homo Neanderthalensis ?

TBH I don't know.  I wouldn't rule out some kind of mountain gorilla.  An exotic pet let loose, or an escaped animal from a zoo/circus.  A Gorilla used for military test etc.  A normal mountain gorilla is capable of the injuries of the rav 4.  There were suppose to have been state sponsored experiments to cross breed apes and humans in the 1920s.  The bigfoot genome project claims that they have sequenced uncontaminated DNA  from a bigfoot under observation and found that it was a hybrid human/ape.   Mitochondrial DNA entirely human, with main helix sequences a mix of ape and human, indicating an ape has bread with a female human.   Naturally there is much scepticism around their claims.  It is interesting to look at though.  So there are possible candidates, in addition to the prehistoric ones.

The key to all of this though is finding evidence, which is difficult.  There is evidence that could support the theory, but it isn't explicit to an attack by a yeti or other ape like creature,  explicit evidence is needed.  I think if a body were to be found then that might increase the validity of the Yeti attack theory.

Regards

Star man
Thinking about a mountain gorilla we would need to include some level of military involvement. Do you think that the military could have placed such animals near Dyatlov Pass ?

I was thinking about other living fossils - the Coelacanth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coelacanth), the Mega-mouth shark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megamouth_shark). Both were considered along time extinct... Still they appeared after so much time.

For some time I thought a frozen body of a Yeti has been preserved (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Iceman). However, current consensus is that it was all an elaborate hoax...

Both the Coelacanth and the Megamouth are ocean creatures, and they inhabit deep waters. My point is, that in the oceans they stand way better chances of survival and to remain undetected, compared to any land species, especially they don`t have many natural enemies, if any. Well, apart from lucky fisherman. Considering the fact, that we haven`t studied huge percentage (some say 95%, but I believe that must be exaggerated) of the oceans, there is a good chance to find more creatures that are considered long gone.

But if you are looking for creatures on the surface, I think the closest you get apart from long extincted Gigantopithecus or Homo Neanderthalensis, is related to the work of people like Ilya Ivanovich Ivanov and his Human-ape hybridization experiments. I remember Loose Cannon posting a nice photo of one of the ... things. I find it very convenient, that Ivanov is Russian.  kewl1 But to be fair, remaining completely undetected, even in remote areas with little to no human activity is ridiculous. Especially if there is a population that is reproducing itself and older creatures die.

That is probably why recognizing Nikolai in the photo №17 sounds and looks more reasonable compared to looking for a "black cat in dark room".

Regards
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Morski on June 18, 2020, 11:21:41 AM
Regarding the famous frame №17 (https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-thibeaux-brignolle) from Nikolai Thibeaux camera, where it is speculated that it captured Yeti - Look at the photo again, and than take a look at the loose photos section and especially photo №7 (https://dyatlovpass.com/loose-photos), where Nikolai himself is in a strange position of the body, presumably being cold. Compare the leaning of the torso and especially the right shoulder position of the Yeti photo and Nikolai`s. They seem to be very much alike, even though the quality of the two photos and the distance is very different. Different photos, but the body position looks similar. Another tning, it is said that Nikolai liked to be in front of a camera. He liked to be the center of attention. The group had already been joking about Yeti, eventually writing it down in the "Evening Otorten №1". If they were sure, or at least in doubt they saw such a creature, I think they would write much more, not a single line.

I think it is more reasonable to say, that Nikolai and his friends kinda "staged" the Yeti photo to fit the Yeti joking theme, and the Yeti is actually Nikolai himself. The photo is taken with his camera. Of course, there was no way for them to see the photo right away back then, but a more experienced photographer (someone from the group) could make a more blurry photo deliberately.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 18, 2020, 11:55:09 AM
Regarding the famous frame №17 (https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-thibeaux-brignolle) from Nikolai Thibeaux camera, where it is speculated that it captured Yeti - Look at the photo again, and than take a look at the loose photos section and especially photo №7 (https://dyatlovpass.com/loose-photos), where Nikolai himself is in a strange position of the body, presumably being cold. Compare the leaning of the torso and especially the right shoulder position of the Yeti photo and Nikolai`s. They seem to be very much alike, even though the quality of the two photos and the distance is very different. Different photos, but the body position looks similar. Another tning, it is said that Nikolai liked to be in front of a camera. He liked to be the center of attention. The group had already been joking about Yeti, eventually writing it down in the "Evening Otorten №1". If they were sure, or at least in doubt they saw such a creature, I think they would write much more, not a single line.

I think it is more reasonable to say, that Nikolai and his friends kinda "staged" the Yeti photo to fit the Yeti joking theme, and the Yeti is actually Nikolai himself. The photo is taken with his camera. Of course, there was no way for them to see the photo right away back then, but a more experienced photographer (someone from the group) could make a more blurry photo deliberately.
Of course,
still the aspect of depth of snow at the point of the photograph is interesting.
If the snow is 2feet deep, that makes the person photographed over 6feet tall, possibly around 6feet 6inches or so.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 18, 2020, 12:06:28 PM

Both the Coelacanth and the Megamouth are ocean creatures, and they inhabit deep waters. My point is, that in the oceans they stand way better chances of survival and to remain undetected, compared to any land species, especially they don`t have many natural enemies, if any. Well, apart from lucky fisherman. Considering the fact, that we haven`t studied huge percentage (some say 95%, but I believe that must be exaggerated) of the oceans, there is a good chance to find more creatures that are considered long gone.

But if you are looking for creatures on the surface, I think the closest you get apart from long extincted Gigantopithecus or Homo Neanderthalensis, is related to the work of people like Ilya Ivanovich Ivanov and his Human-ape hybridization experiments. I remember Loose Cannon posting a nice photo of one of the ... things. I find it very convenient, that Ivanov is Russian.  kewl1 But to be fair, remaining completely undetected, even in remote areas with little to no human activity is ridiculous. Especially if there is a population that is reproducing itself and older creatures die.

That is probably why recognizing Nikolai in the photo №17 sounds and looks more reasonable compared to looking for a "black cat in dark room".

Regards
I have been reading about living fossils and strange animals from a very young age. An interesting account that drew my attention came from North America, where a race of cannibalistic giants is said to have existed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si-Te-Cah
"According to the Paiutes, the Si-Te-Cah were a red-haired band of cannibalistic giants.[3] The Si-Te-Cah and the Paiutes were at war, and after a long struggle a coalition of tribes trapped the remaining Si-Te-Cah in Lovelock Cave. When they refused to come out, the Indians piled brush before the cave mouth and set it aflame. The Si-Te-Cah were annihilated. "

According to some sources, prehistoric sandals were discovered in Lovelock Cave. The sandals were approximately 40cm long, making them ideal for bigfoot giants to walk in them. (https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-americas/lovelock-cave-tale-giants-or-giant-tale-fiction-003060)

In Asia and in Russia, accounts of Yetis, under various names, appear quite often.
Regarding the difficulty of finding new real animals on the surface of the plane (versus underwater) - it is more difficult, but not impossible...

So, who knows ? Perhaps one day we will read on the news about the finding of a real life Yeti.  loco1

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Morski on June 18, 2020, 12:16:22 PM
Regarding the famous frame №17 (https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-thibeaux-brignolle) from Nikolai Thibeaux camera, where it is speculated that it captured Yeti - Look at the photo again, and than take a look at the loose photos section and especially photo №7 (https://dyatlovpass.com/loose-photos), where Nikolai himself is in a strange position of the body, presumably being cold. Compare the leaning of the torso and especially the right shoulder position of the Yeti photo and Nikolai`s. They seem to be very much alike, even though the quality of the two photos and the distance is very different. Different photos, but the body position looks similar. Another tning, it is said that Nikolai liked to be in front of a camera. He liked to be the center of attention. The group had already been joking about Yeti, eventually writing it down in the "Evening Otorten №1". If they were sure, or at least in doubt they saw such a creature, I think they would write much more, not a single line.

I think it is more reasonable to say, that Nikolai and his friends kinda "staged" the Yeti photo to fit the Yeti joking theme, and the Yeti is actually Nikolai himself. The photo is taken with his camera. Of course, there was no way for them to see the photo right away back then, but a more experienced photographer (someone from the group) could make a more blurry photo deliberately.
Of course,
still the aspect of depth of snow at the point of the photograph is interesting.
If the snow is 2feet deep, that makes the person photographed over 6feet tall, possibly around 6feet 6inches or so.

I am not sure where the information about the depth (2 m.) comes from. I am also not sure whether anyone knows exactly where the place is, in order to claim certain depth. Anyway, to me, it looks like the one who is taking the photo is positioned a bit lower, as if he/she is on his knees or lying on the ground. Or, it could be that it is a natural difference in the terrain - a slope, which leaves the photographer lower, which may explain the "Yeti" height. Or even a snow mass in front of the legs of the "Yeti", creating optical illusion, that the legs are buried in deep snow.

Regards
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on June 18, 2020, 02:55:01 PM


I dont think they were murdered.  If they had been targeted I dont think they would have ever been found.  If the military had cleaned up the site they would have cleaned up the bodies and tent too.  The hikers would have simply disappeared, never to be seen again.  Allowing them to wander off into the dark would have given them a chance to survive and tell the tale.  They could have built a shelter and made it through the night and then returned to the tent, repaired it and made their way back.

1)How do you disappear someone in Siberia during February? The ground is frozen and covered in snow, the amount of effort it would take to dig a large enough hole from the frozen ground for 9 bodies and their gear would be immense and would either require the entire attack party to dig for quite some time, or there would have to be a lot more attackers than reasonable.

2)Despite the remoteness of the region, the expectation is that the bodies would eventually be found, if every trace of the party disappeared from that mountain I imagine that the immediate theory would be murder by the state and a coverup.

3)Allowing them to wander in the dark with insufficient clothes prevents them from going far, where exactly would they go and how far can they go? The nearest settlement they know about is at least 40 to 50k away. Even if they wonder away, they wont survive long, at most they wonder away for a km or two further away and die at some point in the few hours after vacating the tent, they have no clothes, no food, no shoes, no shelter, no mode of transportation other than walking and no idea where the nearest people are.

4) If someone is trying to kill them, they would hardly leave the tent unattended after they chase the hikers out and I highly doubt that they would leave without ensuring that they all died before leaving the area. I doubt that someone chased them away from the tent and then left immediately after.
 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on June 18, 2020, 02:56:30 PM


I understand why some think that they may have been forced  under gun point.  It's not impossible, but I think it is very unlikely given the evidence at the scene. 
What evidence at the scene contradicts that possibility?

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on June 18, 2020, 03:37:09 PM

I -
a) the skiers heard cracking noises on Jan 31st and Fev 1st, in the forest around them. Someone made a blurry photo with Thibeaux-Brignolle's camera of a shadowy figure standing near a tree. They laughed at first and said it must have been a very tall Mansi hunter, but decided to keep watch and to protect themselves better , just in case.
b) the skiers made a small detour from their intended path, in order to camp on the barren mountain slope of Kholat Syakl. From there, they could easily observe the surroundings , out to 1km or more, therefore no stranger could approach them without being spotted.
c) the skiers made camp as planned, and established a program of watches, with one person standing guard outside the tent at all times.
If there was someone watching the outside at all times they would have been very well dressed but more importantly, they would have made some sort of weapons and used the knives and axes for security. If they are forced to run they would not be throwing away their weapons and clothes .

Quote
II-
d) they eat dinner at around 19:00. They start making their watch program.
e) at around 22:00, it's "Zolotaryov's" turn to keep watch. With him exits also Thibeaux-Brignolles, for a call of nature. Both are well dressed.
If they were keeping watch, there would likely be two of them at all times, after all there are enough of them to be able to keep 1.5h watch schedule but again they would be armed as best they can which might have meant going back to their storage site for the additional ice ax and they would be well dressed. Sending a person or two to patrol outside while they are under dressed and unarmed makes no sense.

Quote
Suddenly, a Yeti appears at 3 meters in front of "Zolotaryov". The Yeti starts making ear-splitting sounds, while the people inside the tent understand that the shadow from the forest has returned and it's attacking their comerades. In a hurry, they split the canvas of the tent, to get out and help their two friends. Unfortunately , it's too late for "Zolotaryov": he is punched with immense strength into the chest, and suffers multiple fractures. His friends rush to battle the enemy: with knives and bare fists, they surround the Yeti and fight back. The Yeti backs down under the relentless attack of the courageous friends !
The knives were found inside the tent with their clothing, and from all account the tent was in orderly shape inside. If 7 people were inside what was for all intents and purposes two 4man tents sown together, and they were forced to run outside in haste the inside would appear like a brawl had happened rather than just 7 crumpled up blankets and shoes piled on each other.

Quote
f) but, during the battle, a second Yeti appears.
g) the group recovers "Zolotaryov"'s , still animated, body, but Lyubidina is punched hard as well - she suffers multiple fractures from the punch as well.
h) the second Yeti tilts the balance in the animal's favour: the group of skiers slowly backs down, down on the slope. During the battle, they have lost all but one of their knives. There is no time to take anything from the tent: the matches and flashlights were already on their pockets when they heard the ear-splitting noise.
All of their knives were IN the tent in their sheaths, and if either one of them were to badly hurt by yeti they would have had significant problems making it down the slope. The last thing people running for their lives would be to throw away their weapons back into the tent.

If they were concerned about someone or something they would have been dressed and ready to leave on a moments notice rather than strip down to underwear when they believe they are in enough danger to require a sentry.

Quote
III-
i) Dyatlov carries "Zolotaryov", Slobodin carries Lyubidina, while Doroschenko and Krivonishenko with Zina, Kolevatov and Thibeaux-Brignolles face the enemy, while going backwards down the slope.

You would be clearly able to see if someone is backing down the slope or if they are walking forward and the problem with carrying people down the slope in the cold with no shoes and no clothes would be that both Slopodin and Dyatlov would be completely exhausted well before they get to the tree.


Quote
j) Slobodin stumbles under the weight and is caught by one Yeti and his skull is crushed. He is still alive, but needs to be carried by Doroschenko. Krivonishenko takes Lyubidina.
k) Zina, Kolevatov and Thibeaux-Brignolles charge the closest Yeti (which was previously wounded), and stab it multiple times. However, all three of them suffer serious wounds - Kolevatov has his neck deformed, Zina receives a swipe on her abdomen, Thibeaux has his skull hit and internal bleeding. However with ear-splitting sounds, the enemy retreats. Both Yetis disappear into the darkness, as the group of skiers continues to descend the slope.
 (they are now half way).
No knives so they cant stab anyone/anything. At this point by your theory there are at least 7 seriously injured individual who would be stumbling and falling all over the place, the likely outcome would be that the group starts shedding people from the tent all the way down to the cedar tree. There is a point where if too many people are injured the group will either stop or abandon people. There are at least 3 seriously injured people in your scenario more likely 6 of them with at least 1 maybe 2 already dead. Deformed neck means that he isn't walking away and serious chest injuries mean that Both Symon and Lyubina are going to be basicly dragged as fireman carrying them out would be out of the question.

Quote
IV-
l) thirty minutes later, the group arrives at the bottom of a cedar tree. They start a small fire and search for the enemy. Nothing is found.
m) it becomes painfully obvious that they won't survive the night unless they get warmer clothes from the tent.
n) Dyatlov, Zina and Doroschenko build a small den, onto which they place their heavy wounded.
p) Krivonishenko and Doroschenko try to keep the fire going. They are poorly dressed and feel the cold badly.
q) Dyatlov decides to try for the tent - with him goes Zina and Slobodin. Unfortunately, none of them reaches the tent - they freeze on the way.
r) everybody freezes
s) the Mansi hunters find the bodies on the slope and near the cedar tree, several days into the battle. They give word to the nearest military unit.
t) a group of soldiers examines the area somewhere around Fev 10th. They take several cameras, films and notebooks. Through an oversight, they leave behind a pair of leg-bracers. They cover their tracks around the tent and down the slope. They inform their superiors about what they found.
So why are 4 of the most heavily injured people not by the cedar tree once found but in the Ravine? Two of them would have died immediatly or shortly after their injuries so early in the evening after the attack, they would be dead weight, so how did they get from the cedar tree to the  Ravine?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on June 18, 2020, 03:39:56 PM
then I imagine that could have prompted a panic resulting in the need to make a new exit from the tent, by cutting a hole and then pulling at it to make it big enough to get through. 
If there was panic inside the tent with a hasty retreat the tent would reflect the hasty retreat. Nobody cuts out the side of their tent and then does an orderly evacuation.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on June 18, 2020, 04:52:53 PM
Do you have a candidate for a possible Yeti ?
I.e. Gigantopithecus, Homo Neanderthalensis ?

TBH I don't know.  I wouldn't rule out some kind of mountain gorilla.  An exotic pet let loose, or an escaped animal from a zoo/circus.  A Gorilla used for military test etc.  A normal mountain gorilla is capable of the injuries of the rav 4.  There were suppose to have been state sponsored experiments to cross breed apes and humans in the 1920s.  The bigfoot genome project claims that they have sequenced uncontaminated DNA  from a bigfoot under observation and found that it was a hybrid human/ape.   Mitochondrial DNA entirely human, with main helix sequences a mix of ape and human, indicating an ape has bread with a female human.   Naturally there is much scepticism around their claims.  It is interesting to look at though.  So there are possible candidates, in addition to the prehistoric ones.

The key to all of this though is finding evidence, which is difficult.  There is evidence that could support the theory, but it isn't explicit to an attack by a yeti or other ape like creature,  explicit evidence is needed.  I think if a body were to be found then that might increase the validity of the Yeti attack theory.

Regards

Star man
Thinking about a mountain gorilla we would need to include some level of military involvement. Do you think that the military could have placed such animals near Dyatlov Pass ?

I was thinking about other living fossils - the Coelacanth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coelacanth), the Mega-mouth shark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megamouth_shark). Both were considered along time extinct... Still they appeared after so much time.

For some time I thought a frozen body of a Yeti has been preserved (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Iceman). However, current consensus is that it was all an elaborate hoax...

In one of my previous threads I considered the possibility of apes used in a military test.  A n bomb test.  Apes were used extensively for tests during this period.  What better way to test the effects of a n bomb on humans than by using apes with very similar anatomy.  Note that n bombs were designed specifically to take out people, stop advancing armies and leave the infrastructure with little damage.  If you were going to test such a device, it would be pointless without some test subjects.  But I am not ruling out historical creatures and traditional Yetis.  There have been many sightings by credible witnesses.  Unfortunately there have probably been even more hoaxes and made up stories.

Jury is still out without the evidence,  question is can any evidence be found?  If not then maybe it wasnt a Yeti, or ape.

Regards

Star man

Let's discuss the few facts about the Yeti that we have , in conjunction with DPI.

First, the curious photo no17. Many say it's Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle. However, other say that the snow is over 2ft deep in that photo, making the person in picture stand at around 190-200cm (because the knees are clearly above the snow line, by some 10-20cm.) Was Nikolai that tall ?

Second, the curious mention of snowmen exist from the Evening Otorten. All the other cut-outs from the paper are linked to actual events. Therefore it is reasonable to infer that the snowman in question is also linked to a real event. Perhaps they've seen someone in the woods, and barely managed to photograph him...

Best,

The Evening Otorten is interesting.  It is what started the speculation about the Yeti theory.  You're correct in that other entries seem to relate to events.  Had someone seen something and the others teased them about it in the pamphlet. Or was the entry less satirical than the others.  Strangely the pattern of events could fit the Yeti theory.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on June 18, 2020, 05:02:15 PM


I dont think they were murdered.  If they had been targeted I dont think they would have ever been found.  If the military had cleaned up the site they would have cleaned up the bodies and tent too.  The hikers would have simply disappeared, never to be seen again.  Allowing them to wander off into the dark would have given them a chance to survive and tell the tale.  They could have built a shelter and made it through the night and then returned to the tent, repaired it and made their way back.

1)How do you disappear someone in Siberia during February? The ground is frozen and covered in snow, the amount of effort it would take to dig a large enough hole from the frozen ground for 9 bodies and their gear would be immense and would either require the entire attack party to dig for quite some time, or there would have to be a lot more attackers than reasonable.

2)Despite the remoteness of the region, the expectation is that the bodies would eventually be found, if every trace of the party disappeared from that mountain I imagine that the immediate theory would be murder by the state and a coverup.

3)Allowing them to wander in the dark with insufficient clothes prevents them from going far, where exactly would they go and how far can they go? The nearest settlement they know about is at least 40 to 50k away. Even if they wonder away, they wont survive long, at most they wonder away for a km or two further away and die at some point in the few hours after vacating the tent, they have no clothes, no food, no shoes, no shelter, no mode of transportation other than walking and no idea where the nearest people are.

4) If someone is trying to kill them, they would hardly leave the tent unattended after they chase the hikers out and I highly doubt that they would leave without ensuring that they all died before leaving the area. I doubt that someone chased them away from the tent and then left immediately after.

1.  You remove their bodies from the area and dispose of them somewhere else.

2.  The bodies would not be found if they were completely removed.

3.  They were experienced hikers, some were well dressed, they had matches and built a fire, they could build a shelter and survived.

4.  There was no motive to want to kill them.  They would have been difficult to find.  They would have needed to wait around.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on June 18, 2020, 05:30:35 PM


I understand why some think that they may have been forced  under gun point.  It's not impossible, but I think it is very unlikely given the evidence at the scene. 
What evidence at the scene contradicts that possibility?

No sign of other people.  Nothing taken from the tent.  The way they left the tent and what they took with them - some well dressed, others half naked.  Some with boots, some with socks, some bare foot.  Rustem took one boot.  They took knives, matches, a camera, a flashlight, news paper, pens etc.  These are not the sorts of things you would allow people to take if you were sending them to their deaths in the cold?  Besides, they were in a desolate location, it was dark, in bad weather, with poor visibility.  Not the ideal place or time to man an attack, or even to find them.  There is no motive.  Why would anyone do it?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on June 18, 2020, 05:41:39 PM
then I imagine that could have prompted a panic resulting in the need to make a new exit from the tent, by cutting a hole and then pulling at it to make it big enough to get through. 
If there was panic inside the tent with a hasty retreat the tent would reflect the hasty retreat. Nobody cuts out the side of their tent and then does an orderly evacuation.

There are no signs of an orderly evacuation.  Why would anyone leave with just one boot?  Why drop your flashlight 450m down the slope and not pick it back up again?  The terrain was difficult to navigate and dangerous.  It was dark.  You would only be able to move carefully and slowly.  The tent was not that orderly, 7 crumpled blankets, biscuits and pork loin crusts uneaten, disorderly pile of shoes, cuts made from inside the tent.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on June 18, 2020, 07:13:14 PM


1.  You remove their bodies from the area and dispose of them somewhere else.
How do you do that without the risk of walking in on another hiking group with 9 bodies in tow? Unless this was a platoon level operation this would not work and if it was a platoon level operation we would already know.

Quote
2.  The bodies would not be found if they were completely removed.
How do you remove 9 bodies, 9 rucksacks, 10 sets of ski's and remove your own equipment all without arousing suspicion of people you pass on your way out? The last think they would want is to leave witnesses or disappear another 9 or 10 people.

Quote
3.  They were experienced hikers, some were well dressed, they had matches and built a fire, they could build a shelter and survived.
For how long? You can build a shelter and you can build a fire but you cannot get too far from the fire or you freeze an you have to get relatively far from the attacking force to light a fire that wouldn't draw them to you, this means you have to travel at least 3, maybe 4km in the dark with no shoes, no gloves and minimal clothing. You have to do this with no tools or food as well, and this is done after a full day of working too so at this point they are exhausted.

To my understanding, some were better dressed then others but none of them were well dressed for winter.

Quote
4.  There was no motive to want to kill them.  They would have been difficult to find.  They would have needed to wait around.
How do you know there was no motive to kill them? Just because we don't know the reason someone did it doesn't mean there was no reason.

It most definitely wouldn't be difficult to find them, they have no reason to hide and they are making a trail, as long as someone is close enough behind them not to lose them it shouldn't be a problem.

And no they don't have to wait around, they had no reason to expect the Dyatlov group would pitch their tent there, so it had to have been someone following them or someone that stumbled on the group.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on June 18, 2020, 09:29:40 PM


No sign of other people.
Nobody was looking for signs of other people until the area was flooded with people. Once the area was flooded with people it would have been nearly impossible for anyone to determine which tracks were from the search party and which were from someone else. Another issue is that if it was a military unit, whether Soviet or western they would have been able to cover their tracks well enough for them not to be noticed until someone stated looking and by then it would be too late.


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Nothing taken from the tent. 
And aparently the tent was not in complete chaos as one would expect from 7 hikers cutting their way out and running away in the dark. Just because nothing was missing doesnt mean noone was there, it just means they were not there for theft.


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The way they left the tent and what they took with them - some well dressed, others half naked.
Some were better dressed then others, none were aparently dressed for the elements, even the guys who were likely outside at the time of the incident were wearing only the bear mininmum.


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Some with boots, some with socks, some bare foot.  Rustem took one boot.
The boots the once who had them on were wearing would not have kept them warm for long.

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They took knives, matches, a camera, a flashlight, news paper, pens etc.  These are not the sorts of things you would allow people to take if you were sending them to their deaths in the cold?
They had pocket knives, their real knives were in the tent along with their remaining ax. Everyone had matches but that would have helped them survive for a while not for days or weeks. I don't remember them having a flashlight as for the rest? That's all in the pockets, those people were in a life or death situation, all of those things could have helped them but ultimately this would also help any attacking force to get them to the cedar tree. If I was attacking the Dyatlov group I would leave them with just enough to give them hope but not enough to actually do much with, the whole point is to get them away from the tent, not have to shoot them or stab them in or around the tent. They could have forced them to strip down to their boxers and nothing else but that would just have forced the hikers into a brawl right by the tent and might have led to one or more of them being stabbed or shot which eliminates the mystery and narrows the suspect pool.

Leaving them with some cloths and a pocket knife or maybe even a finish knife would be a choice between certain death right now, or almost certain death in a few hours and most people will take the extra hours hoping against all hope that maybe something will fall their way in the few hours and they can get a chance to survive. But if you strip them of all their clothing and even their pocket knives they would have zero chance of making it to the trees let alone surviving the night. The Dyatlov group would have been the most dangerous if they were completely cornered with no way out and their only 3 options are stay and get killed, do as their told and die of the cold or fight and die but take some of them with you.




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Besides, they were in a desolate location, it was dark, in bad weather, with poor visibility. 
And if someone had followed them they would have known that it was desolate(no witnesses, no chance of rescue), dark(cold, hard to find your way back to the tent), bad weather(hard to survive when only partially dressed) and poor visibility(cant see them come, cant find your way back into the tent).



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Not the ideal place or time to man an attack, or even to find them.
That is precisely the place you want to stage an attack, they are isolated, dozens of km from help, under dressed, already exhausted, terrified, and they know no one is coming to save them. Sound travels further at night, and the hikers would have no reason to maintain light and sound discipline which means that there would be a way to find them even in the dark, go towards the sound.


 
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There is no motive.  Why would anyone do it?
- maybe they were in the wrong place at the wrong time(Mistaken Identity)

-This could have been a murder because the wrong group of people just happened to cross the Dyatlov group and they felt like there would be no repercussions

- This could be an attack by the Government of the USSR, the KGB, the CIA, Soviet or western special forces for some betrayal by a member of the group.

-The group might have seen something, or they may have gone by something they didn’t notice but someone couldn’t take the chance.

-It could also have happened because one or more of the party were on the hike for something other than love of the sport and were working for the Soviet Government and/or the American government.

-One or more of the people in critical jobs could have been trying to defect.

-One of the girls could have been raped or someone important attempted to rape her and this was revenge for fighting them off or reporting them(read up on Lavrentiy Beria)

- This could have been a powerful person whose child was rejected from the hiking club(Wanda Webb Holloway).

- This could have been a powerful person whose child was rejected by one of the girls or guys and subsequently
committed suicide and this was retaliation.

-Zolotaryov could have made enemies during his time in the Soviet Military, just long enough for one of them to gain rank and power to retaliate.

-Maybe they met someone on the trail, a fight happened and they were subsequently ambushed later that day and killed because of that fight.

-This could also be something as stupid as one of the hikers telling somebody off at some point during the trip and that person could not take that insult so that person and their friends came to kill them.

- It could be completely random with a group of soldiers or special forces on an exercise in the region, cross the group, it might have started as a fun game for the attackers to scare them and one of the hikers died so subsequently they
decided to get rid of all the witnesses.

-Could have been prisoners who had escaped the gulag years ago and are living in the mountains, the group crosses them and they cant let them report the escaped convicts to the authorities so they kill them.(There were Japanese soldiers on various islands in the pacific that fought the war against the allies into the 70’s and 80’s)

-It could have also been retaliation for something one of the parents had done years before and this seemed like the perfect revenge, kill their child and leave them without knowing what happened for the rest of their lives and make sure no one gets suspicious by covering it up with 8 other murders.

-This could have been a message for the soviet government from another government and the Dyatlov Group just happened to be the unlucky one that was chosen.

-There could be hundreds of reasons, many of which would be so incredibly stupid that would make your brain hurt, but if you have someone powerful who is a psychopath, sociopath, extreme narcissist or some other personality disorder with access to trained killers it wouldn’t matter if it was a valid reason or not because to them its worth it. How many people have committed mass killings for incredibly stupid reasons?(eg:James Ruppert, Adam Lanza, George Pierre Henard, Marc Lepin etc… ) What is the motive to go into an elementary school and kill a bunch of 6 year old’s?

The list of potential motives is very long and worse, we might not consider a lot of things as motive for mass murder but someone who does not value human life much or at all and who believes himself to be above the law, might consider them valid reactions and if that person is in a position of power that gives them an outlet it gets done. Think about some of the terrorist attacks that were committed in the US and Canada over the last few years(Toronto van attack 2018, 2014 Isla Vista Killings, 2017 Las Vegas shooting) and tell me if they make sense or if there is motive you can get behind.  Why would anyone do it? Why would anyone kill a bunch of people because he couldn’t get a girlfriend?

Just because we don't have a clear motive doesn't mean its not there, and just because we cant pinpoint a solid motive doesn't mean this wasn't murder.

They have injuries that strongly suggest a fight happened, they left the tent under dressed in the middle of the night and walked down to the treeline, if they were running they would have been falling all over the place and it would have been obvious. The only event that could have had the universal reaction of everyone going to trees would be human attack, if it was infrasound what are the chances that everyone would have the same reaction? If it was the yeti, why didn't it destroy their tent? What else causes an orderly exit from the tent but makes them leave their shoes and outerwear inside?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on June 18, 2020, 10:27:25 PM


There are no signs of an orderly evacuation.
Have you ever left a 10 man tent in a hurry in the middle of winter? Because I have and we used the exit and we did it really quickly. When we came back after we were stood down we walked into a tent that looked like we had been fighting in there. If they were leaving in a hurry, the rucksacks that were inside the tent would be in total disarray, the food would be knocked about, their supplies would have been tipped over and/or stomped. Whoever was closest to the shoes and jackets would have grabbed as many of the jackets as they could.

https://dyatlovpass.com/1959-search?flp=1#the-tent (https://dyatlovpass.com/1959-search?flp=1#the-tent)
Notice how it says that everything seemed orderly and normal?
Also notice how they found Dyatlov's jacket OUTSIDE the tent with his notepad and penknife? Who takes his jacket and then throws it down by the entrance next to the ax? If there are two things I wouldn’t be dropping out of the exit I wasn’t using to leave the tent it would definitely be the jacket and ax along with the working flashlight thrown away halfway down the hill. What it looks like to me is that the two men who were outside had a flashlight with them, when the attackers came they took the flashlight, turned it off and threw it on the opposite side of the tent. When Dyatlov heard the commotion he went outside with an ax and his jacket only to be met with a barrel of a rifle to the face, the others are ordered to come out, by which point they have boots on and are then ordered to take their boots off, some are left with socks only while others are left with felt boots on, the rest of the footwear is thrown back into their tent. They are ordered to march after Dyatlov drops the ax and the jacket. They are told to march and 400m down the slope they are ordered to drop the 2nd flashlight or they get shot...flashlight or bullet for everyone is not really that much of a choice.

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-map-16.jpg (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-map-16.jpg)
One flashlight was on the opposite side of their direction of flight, if I had a flashlight in my hand and I was running in panic in the dark I would bring the flashlight with me.

Notice how the second flashlight that was left on was about 400m away from the tent, who would be running away in the dark and decides you know what I don't need? A flashlight.


 
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Why would anyone leave with just one boot?
I don’t know, but apparently he did.

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Why drop your flashlight 450m down the slope and not pick it back up again?
Because whoever had it on was threatened with a rifle.

 
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The terrain was difficult to navigate and dangerous.  It was dark. 
He had a flashlight, it was on the ground in the ON positon, if it was dark he should be able to see the light and where it landed.


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You would only be able to move carefully and slowly.
  would be moving faster with a flashlight, and would improve his chances of finding the tent with a flashlight.

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The tent was not that orderly, 7 crumpled blankets,
Yeah, 7 people were using their blankets, they were either ordered or there was a commotion outside so they didn’t bother folding them. If I had a blanket wrapped around me, and I suddenly was overcome with panic why would I throw away the blanket? For the guy who supposedly cut the side of the tent, why take the time to put the knife back in the tent? This is quite literally the exact opposite of what normal people would do. At least some of the people would have ran with their blankets, someone would have gone back to pick up the flashlight, the guy with the knife would have kept it and the two guys who were outside would have kept their flashlight and picked up Dyatlov’s jacket and ax from the front door. If there were no humans trying to kill them and no bigfoot those blankets, flashlights, knife and ax and jacket would have completely and totally changed the outcome. Even if it was bigfoot, I would drop the jacket and blanket before I drop the knife, ax or flashlight(s).

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biscuits and pork loin crusts uneaten,
They were in the middle of eating, if they had left in a panic the food would have been stepped on or thrown/kicked away.


 
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disorderly pile of shoes,
Which supports my theory that they were wearing the shoes outside the tent and were ordered to toss them back in.


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cuts made from inside the tent.
Unless there was a surveillance video to confirm this we will never know if the tent was cut by them or by someone else.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 19, 2020, 05:10:00 AM
1)How do you disappear someone in Siberia during February? The ground is frozen and covered in snow, the amount of effort it would take to dig a large enough hole from the frozen ground for 9 bodies and their gear would be immense and would either require the entire attack party to dig for quite some time, or there would have to be a lot more attackers than reasonable.
I also think that , had the military/KGB been involved, they wouldn't have made them to disappear. However, to answer your question, a simple way to "disapear" would have been by helicopter...

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2)Despite the remoteness of the region, the expectation is that the bodies would eventually be found, if every trace of the party disappeared from that mountain I imagine that the immediate theory would be murder by the state and a coverup.
My thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 19, 2020, 05:19:40 AM
If there was someone watching the outside at all times they would have been very well dressed but more importantly, they would have made some sort of weapons and used the knives and axes for security. If they are forced to run they would not be throwing away their weapons and clothes .
Thibeaux and "Zolotaryov" were well dressed.
The need for weapons would arise only if they would expect an attack.

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The knives were found inside the tent with their clothing, and from all account the tent was in orderly shape inside. If 7 people were inside what was for all intents and purposes two 4man tents sown together, and they were forced to run outside in haste the inside would appear like a brawl had happened rather than just 7 crumpled up blankets and shoes piled on each other.
One knife (I think Krivonishenko's) was found in the ravine. So they had at least one knife plus their pen knives.
The "brawl" that you mention would appear if there was no light , or little light inside the tent. If tehre was light - from a flashlight perhaps - they could have exited orderly through the cuts in the tent.

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All of their knives were IN the tent in their sheaths, and if either one of them were to badly hurt by yeti they would have had significant problems making it down the slope. The last thing people running for their lives would be to throw away their weapons back into the tent.
Again, at least one knife was with them. Probably because of the haste and terror they couldn't take more.

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If they were concerned about someone or something they would have been dressed and ready to leave on a moments notice rather than strip down to underwear when they believe they are in enough danger to require a sentry.
That would depend on their level of confort. They were all physically strong and, with guards outside, could potentially considered that they were "safe". They were 20 somethings after all.

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You would be clearly able to see if someone is backing down the slope or if they are walking forward and the problem with carrying people down the slope in the cold with no shoes and no clothes would be that both Slopodin and Dyatlov would be completely exhausted well before they get to the tree.
Exhausted and hurt (in case of Slobodin).


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No knives so they cant stab anyone/anything.
See above

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So why are 4 of the most heavily injured people not by the cedar tree once found but in the Ravine? Two of them would have died immediatly or shortly after their injuries so early in the evening after the attack, they would be dead weight, so how did they get from the cedar tree to the  Ravine?
The question is - why was the den built 75meters away from the fire ?
I don't know.
Maybe it seemed like a better place to hide from the Yetis ?

Best,
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 19, 2020, 06:24:34 AM
I am not sure where the information about the depth (2 m.) comes from. I am also not sure whether anyone knows exactly where the place is, in order to claim certain depth. Anyway, to me, it looks like the one who is taking the photo is positioned a bit lower, as if he/she is on his knees or lying on the ground. Or, it could be that it is a natural difference in the terrain - a slope, which leaves the photographer lower, which may explain the "Yeti" height. Or even a snow mass in front of the legs of the "Yeti", creating optical illusion, that the legs are buried in deep snow.

Regards
Not 2 meters, 2 feet.
I agree it is not an exact measurement, but from the quantity of snow appearing in photo no17, I'd estimate a depth of about 60cm (2 feet).
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on June 19, 2020, 08:40:17 PM

Thibeaux and "Zolotaryov" were well dressed.
From what I have read, they were well dressed compared to the others, but not dressed well enough for prolonged period outside.


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The need for weapons would arise only if they would expect an attack.
If they felt threatened enough to require sentry's that would be enough cause to make a weapon, if nothing else have the knives and ax on them at all times.

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One knife (I think Krivonishenko's) was found in the ravine.
They had the knife sheath but not the knife in the den. From everything I have read, the only place that states they found a knife is the report from Ivanov. They had pen knives but that's about it. I could be wrong.


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The "brawl" that you mention would appear if there was no light , or little light inside the tent. If tehre was light - from a flashlight perhaps - they could have exited orderly through the cuts in the tent.
If you are cutting your only shelter for 40-50km in a desolate forest, in the middle of the coldest few months of the year at night it will not be orderly, the fact that it was orderly withdrawal tells me that at the time they may not have realized the seriousness of their situation.

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Again, at least one knife was with them. Probably because of the haste and terror they couldn't take more.
And again, everywhere I read it says all the knives were in the tent save for the pocket knives and it only was added to the final report to have a satisfactory close. No knives were found in the Ravine and no Knives were found in the den or the cedar tree aside from the handful of pocket knives.



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That would depend on their level of confort. They were all physically strong and, with guards outside, could potentially considered that they were "safe". They were 20 somethings after all.
If something spooked them enough to require a sentry, they would be ready to a) help the sentry and b)run on a moment's notice. This means they are dressed in warm clothes and they are carrying all of their weapons on their person at all times. So if they spend 5 nights without a sentry and sudenly something makes them want protection this escalates things, this would mean they should be ready to fight or flee. To me, if I am hiking and come to a point where I need sentry outside it is because of a threat to them, there is no point of having notice that you are under attack only to be in your underwear and have to retreat to your death without clothes or weapons.

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Exhausted and hurt (in case of Slobodin).
If that was the case on the way down, it would be obvious, there would be places that the person falls or is dragged by the others, no such evidence.




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The question is - why was the den built 75meters away from the fire ?
I don't know.
Maybe it seemed like a better place to hide from the Yetis ?
Dubina had a pierced heart, she wasn't going to make it very far or very long.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 20, 2020, 06:07:24 AM
From what I have read, they were well dressed compared to the others, but not dressed well enough for prolonged period outside.
"Zolotaryov" was wearing 2 pairs of pants , and over them a pair of skiing pants for a total of 3 pants on him.
Nikolai Brignolles wore the following: "Nikolay wore a canvas fur hat and home knitted woolen hat. Upper body was protected from coldness by shirt, wool sweater worn inside out and a fur jacket on a sheepskin. Woolen gloves were found in the right pocket along with three coins, comb and several pieces of paper. Lower part of the body was protected by underwear, sweat pants, cotton pants and ski pants. On his feet he wore hand-knitted woolen socks and a pair of felt boots (valenki), Russian winter shoes perfect for Siberian cold."


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If they felt threatened enough to require sentry's that would be enough cause to make a weapon, if nothing else have the knives and ax on them at all times.
It would be important to know why they were keeping watch. If they saw something strange on the Jan 31st/Fev 1st, they should have had weapons. Likewise against bears, wolves, etc.
If, on the other hand, they were keeping watch against a possible accumulation of snow, and/or risk of avalanche on the slope, then the weapons are not necessary.

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They had the knife sheath but not the knife in the den. From everything I have read, the only place that states they found a knife is the report from Ivanov. They had pen knives but that's about it. I could be wrong.
You're right - but the branches at the den are considered to have been cut with Krivonishenko's knife.


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If you are cutting your only shelter for 40-50km in a desolate forest, in the middle of the coldest few months of the year at night it will not be orderly, the fact that it was orderly withdrawal tells me that at the time they may not have realized the seriousness of their situation.
We don't know how they were sleeping and in what positions relative to the cuts made. Perhaps they heard screams outside, attempted to exit on the normal exit of the tent and discovered it blocked by a Yeti, then they attempted repeatedly to cut the tent to get out and help their friends. It is not necessary to throw everything into disarray.

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And again, everywhere I read it says all the knives were in the tent save for the pocket knives and it only was added to the final report to have a satisfactory close. No knives were found in the Ravine and no Knives were found in the den or the cedar tree aside from the handful of pocket knives.
See above.



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If something spooked them enough to require a sentry, they would be ready to a) help the sentry and b)run on a moment's notice. This means they are dressed in warm clothes and they are carrying all of their weapons on their person at all times. So if they spend 5 nights without a sentry and sudenly something makes them want protection this escalates things, this would mean they should be ready to fight or flee. To me, if I am hiking and come to a point where I need sentry outside it is because of a threat to them, there is no point of having notice that you are under attack only to be in your underwear and have to retreat to your death without clothes or weapons.
Again we don't know the reason for the sentry or their way of thinking. ALso I seem to remember they had a watch outside from the earlier nights ? [EDIT: from Dyatlov group diary, Jan 24th: "We took shifts to watch over our stuff all night long"]

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If that was the case on the way down, it would be obvious, there would be places that the person falls or is dragged by the others, no such evidence.
The footprints disappeared about 500meters from the tent, therefore it is not known how they walked the following 1100meters until reaching the cedar tree.

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Dubina had a pierced heart, she wasn't going to make it very far or very long.
Indeed...
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on June 20, 2020, 05:35:40 PM


There are no signs of an orderly evacuation.
Have you ever left a 10 man tent in a hurry in the middle of winter? Because I have and we used the exit and we did it really quickly. When we came back after we were stood down we walked into a tent that looked like we had been fighting in there. If they were leaving in a hurry, the rucksacks that were inside the tent would be in total disarray, the food would be knocked about, their supplies would have been tipped over and/or stomped. Whoever was closest to the shoes and jackets would have grabbed as many of the jackets as they could.

https://dyatlovpass.com/1959-search?flp=1#the-tent (https://dyatlovpass.com/1959-search?flp=1#the-tent)
Notice how it says that everything seemed orderly and normal?
Also notice how they found Dyatlov's jacket OUTSIDE the tent with his notepad and penknife? Who takes his jacket and then throws it down by the entrance next to the ax? If there are two things I wouldn’t be dropping out of the exit I wasn’t using to leave the tent it would definitely be the jacket and ax along with the working flashlight thrown away halfway down the hill. What it looks like to me is that the two men who were outside had a flashlight with them, when the attackers came they took the flashlight, turned it off and threw it on the opposite side of the tent. When Dyatlov heard the commotion he went outside with an ax and his jacket only to be met with a barrel of a rifle to the face, the others are ordered to come out, by which point they have boots on and are then ordered to take their boots off, some are left with socks only while others are left with felt boots on, the rest of the footwear is thrown back into their tent. They are ordered to march after Dyatlov drops the ax and the jacket. They are told to march and 400m down the slope they are ordered to drop the 2nd flashlight or they get shot...flashlight or bullet for everyone is not really that much of a choice.

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-map-16.jpg (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-map-16.jpg)
One flashlight was on the opposite side of their direction of flight, if I had a flashlight in my hand and I was running in panic in the dark I would bring the flashlight with me.

Notice how the second flashlight that was left on was about 400m away from the tent, who would be running away in the dark and decides you know what I don't need? A flashlight.


 
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Why would anyone leave with just one boot?
I don’t know, but apparently he did.

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Why drop your flashlight 450m down the slope and not pick it back up again?
Because whoever had it on was threatened with a rifle.

 
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The terrain was difficult to navigate and dangerous.  It was dark. 
He had a flashlight, it was on the ground in the ON positon, if it was dark he should be able to see the light and where it landed.


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You would only be able to move carefully and slowly.
  would be moving faster with a flashlight, and would improve his chances of finding the tent with a flashlight.

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The tent was not that orderly, 7 crumpled blankets,
Yeah, 7 people were using their blankets, they were either ordered or there was a commotion outside so they didn’t bother folding them. If I had a blanket wrapped around me, and I suddenly was overcome with panic why would I throw away the blanket? For the guy who supposedly cut the side of the tent, why take the time to put the knife back in the tent? This is quite literally the exact opposite of what normal people would do. At least some of the people would have ran with their blankets, someone would have gone back to pick up the flashlight, the guy with the knife would have kept it and the two guys who were outside would have kept their flashlight and picked up Dyatlov’s jacket and ax from the front door. If there were no humans trying to kill them and no bigfoot those blankets, flashlights, knife and ax and jacket would have completely and totally changed the outcome. Even if it was bigfoot, I would drop the jacket and blanket before I drop the knife, ax or flashlight(s).

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biscuits and pork loin crusts uneaten,
They were in the middle of eating, if they had left in a panic the food would have been stepped on or thrown/kicked away.


 
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disorderly pile of shoes,
Which supports my theory that they were wearing the shoes outside the tent and were ordered to toss them back in.


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cuts made from inside the tent.
Unless there was a surveillance video to confirm this we will never know if the tent was cut by them or by someone else.

So do you think that they were followed for several days into the wilderness, and during that time the attackers were not spotted by the Dyatlov party?  If so why not attack the group on the first night in the wilderness.  They had no better chance of survival?  Why wait several days?

During the attack you think the attackers tried tailor the scene such that it would not look like they were attacked, by forcing them to leave the tent and wander into the frigid darkness to their dooms!  To avoid further suspicion and a confrontation, they allow so e of the hikers to wear boots, and order others to remove theirs, and to throw them back into the pile on left hand side of the tent?  And for others to put their shoes back where they had picked them up from?  But they decided that Dyatlov should leave his jacket just outside the entrance with ice axe?  To further draw suspicion away, they allow some of the hikers to take matches, paper, a knife and pen knives and a flash light with them?   Oh yes a d a camera?  Why would you let them take a camera when they may have snapped a photo of the attackers on it?  Then 450m down the slope they order them to drop the camera and continue?

What about the injuries of the rav 4?  They could not have sustained those very far from where the bodies were found.  How are these explained?  Especially the Lyuda and Semyon, who both have massive chest trauma with no soft tissue damage, and both have their eyes missing.  Lyuda's tongue is also missing a d her good bone with damage?  None of the have broken extremities or wrists, ankles.  Tbibi's skull injury which would have required at 450Kg of force is in exact proportion to the ball of a thumb on hand.  In this case it would had to  e a 30cm long hand which approximately the size of the hand of an ape.  The injuries of Lyuda and Semyon are also consistent with the attack of a large ape - dragged beaten with heavy blows to the chest at a very shallow angle while lying on the ground.  A large fleshy padded hand is less likely to cause soft tissue damage.  There is also evidence that Doroshenko climbed the cedar even though he had significant frost bite.  Why would he do that?

The problem with the human attack theory is that it requires a sequence of improbable unfortunate events to explain it.  Whilst the Yeti theory can be explained by ibe thing - a large powerful scary Yeti induced a panic and the hikers left in a hurry wearing and carrying whatever they had at the time.  At some point the rav 4 were attacked and mauled.  The others were lost in the dark and died from the cold.  The problem with the Yeti theory is that we dont have any Yetis.  But a large ape like a mountain gorilla would be just as capable of causing the events.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on June 20, 2020, 08:35:55 PM

"Zolotaryov" was wearing 2 pairs of pants , and over them a pair of skiing pants for a total of 3 pants on him.
Nikolai Brignolles wore the following: "Nikolay wore a canvas fur hat and home knitted woolen hat. Upper body was protected from coldness by shirt, wool sweater worn inside out and a fur jacket on a sheepskin. Woolen gloves were found in the right pocket along with three coins, comb and several pieces of paper. Lower part of the body was protected by underwear, sweat pants, cotton pants and ski pants. On his feet he wore hand-knitted woolen socks and a pair of felt boots (valenki), Russian winter shoes perfect for Siberian cold."
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His legs were protected by a pair of socks and a pair of warm leather hand made shoes known as "burka". They probably couldn't keep him warm for a long time, but in the den it was sufficient in keeping the man alive.

https://dyatlovpass.com/death?flp=1#Zolotaryov (https://dyatlovpass.com/death?flp=1#Zolotaryov)

Like I said, from what I read the two men were better dressed then the rest but not dressed well enough to survive -20/-40 degree weather on a 40+km hike with no shelter, food or ski's. But you are right, it sounds like they were both dressed and could survive in the cold, whether they could survive or not is a different question. The fact that Zolotaryov also had a compass on his wrist means he might have a chance.





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It would be important to know why they were keeping watch. If they saw something strange on the Jan 31st/Fev 1st, they should have had weapons. Likewise against bears, wolves, etc.
If, on the other hand, they were keeping watch against a possible accumulation of snow, and/or risk of avalanche on the slope, then the weapons are not necessary.
It doesn't matter what they were worried about, if those two men were sentry's they would have had to have been armed if worried about animal/human attack while the rest of the group were dressed, packed and prepared for a hasty retreat and only  then do they go to sleep, dressed and ready to either evacuate immediately or fight to protect themselves. If those two men were sentry's the group failed miserably because they were unprepared for whatever befell them, or more likely from my perspective is that they were prepared, they went outside and were disarmed and forced to  undress and told to march, the two sentry's were released and told to go at the same time and no one bothered to force them to undress or in the dark the attackers underestimated the level of preparedness of the 2 men.

Sentry's give warning and the others respond because they are ready, having sentry's and being 2-5 minutes from being ready to respond to a threat negates the need for sentry's...unless this was in June/July high arctic and it was 24h days which would give them clear and high visibility for a couple of km from where the tent was situated. IF they were sentry’s, whatever they were worried about the group should have been ready to move on a moment’s notice, the Dyatlov group being scared enough to institute sentry’s but not enough to be prepared to react seems unlikely.


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You're right - but the branches at the den are considered to have been cut with Krivonishenko's knife.
That’s part of my problem, all of the knives were found and accounted for as far as I know and all of the bigger knives were found in the tent. So there was 1 or more knives in the group that were used in the to cut the branches and the search party misplaced them, did not find them at all or mistook the knife for a search party knife and did not log it. Or the other options are the branches were cut by someone else before, the attackers had cut the wood or the hikers used their knifes to cut the wood and the knifes were taken away at some point in the night and returned to the tent after they were dead.

How else can you explain a knife being used, but no knife being found?


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We don't know how they were sleeping and in what positions relative to the cuts made. Perhaps they heard screams outside, attempted to exit on the normal exit of the tent and discovered it blocked by a Yeti, then they attempted repeatedly to cut the tent to get out and help their friends. It is not necessary to throw everything into disarray.
It’s a small tent, they have 7 people and 9 rucksacks inside an 8 men tent, if they were in such a panic as not to remember to bring their blankets, knives, clothes or flashlight they will be in enough of a hurry to fall over and knock things over, the floor was likely cluttered with rucksacks they were using to sit on.




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If
Again we don't know the reason for the sentry or their way of thinking. ALso I seem to remember they had a watch outside from the earlier nights ? [EDIT: from Dyatlov group diary, Jan 24th: "We took shifts to watch over our stuff all night long"]
That was while they were on route to start the hike, not on the hike.

And again, whether its fear of avalanche or fear of human/animal attack the sentry’s would be there to give warning, not deal with the problems by themselves. If they were worried about avalanche they should have been dressed and ready to evacuate in a moment’s notice with minimum supplies to be able to survive the night so they can recover their equipment later on, being undressed is not ready.

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The footprints disappeared about 500meters from the tent, therefore it is not known how they walked the following 1100meters until reaching the cedar tree.
I don’t care about the last 1,100m my concern is the first few hundred meters. If they were in a panic at the tent, they should be in a panic in the first 500m, if they feel safe enough later on they can slow down or fatigue slows them down but to be in a panicked enough state to cut your only shelter in a Siberian forest at least 40km from civilization and leave in various states of undress I would expect the first few hundred meters to be a mad dash and the tracks should indicate that.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on June 20, 2020, 11:05:34 PM
So do you think that they were followed for several days into the wilderness, and during that time the attackers were not spotted by the Dyatlov party?

Depends on what the motive was. If they were specifically targeted on someone's orders they were followed and as a group of good citizens with nothing to hide they did not suspect being followed or take any precautions to lose the tail they didn't know they had. If on the other hand the motive was due to something that happened on the hike they may have been followed for a day or so before the attack.



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  If so why not attack the group on the first night in the wilderness.  They had no better chance of survival?  Why wait several days?

If they were targeted from the beginning, then waiting until they were at least 40km from civilization which would make sense, even if one or more of them survived, the attackers can track them down and kill them before they make it to civilization and more importantly there would be a bigger chance of someone stumbling on the camp before the deed was completely done which means more bodies and harder explanation the closer to the beginning of the trek. Their goal if the group was targeted from the get go would be to do it far enough from civilization that the chances of someone accidently stumbling upon the hikers while the attack is ongoing or shortly after its done would be small and more importantly from the point of view of the attackers, they buy themselves at least 2 weeks to get out of the area and be somewhere else far far away before anyone starts looking into the missing hikers, and its 2 weeks for your trail to fade, there are ways to cover your tracks, but those  ways still leave a faint enough trail, but giving nature 2-3 weeks for nature to help you makes sense. The longer it takes someone to figure out something is wrong, and then to find the camp site the harder it is for the investigators to find out what happened.




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During the attack you think the attackers tried tailor the scene such that it would not look like they were attacked, by forcing them to leave the tent and wander into the frigid darkness to their dooms!  To avoid further suspicion and a confrontation, they allow so e of the hikers to wear boots, and order others to remove theirs, and to throw them back into the pile on left hand side of the tent? 
Two of the hikers were out, they could have been 50 or 60m away or more taking pictures of something. In the darkness the attackers don’t see them, they get the others out of the tent and stripping them only to realize 2 are missing, by the time they find them the others are already marching so they send them along not bothering to force them to strip, they either underestimated the warmth of their clothes or assumed that the two men would redistribute some of their clothes to their fellow hikers, at least those that are the most exposed.


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And for others to put their shoes back where they had picked them up from? 
They exited from the main entrance, on the way out they grabbed their boots which would be nice and orderly but once they were outside the attackers told them to throw them back into the tent. Logically the hikers would have kept their boots neat and paired so they can grab them quickly without disturbing their fellows if they needed to go out for whatever reason, pilling your shoes in one blob would be a big no-no for those hikers or most other people.



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But they decided that Dyatlov should leave his jacket just outside the entrance with ice axe?
Maybe Dyatlov had the jacket and ax with him when he went to the cedar tree and the attackers grabbed both items and brough them to the tent, or more likely they went through the tent and looked at all of the journals to see if anything was amiss and tossed the jacket out because it was in their way.

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To further draw suspicion away, they allow some of the hikers to take matches, paper, a knife and pen knives and a flash light with them?
Maybe they underestimated the groups ability to survive, or they wanted to give the group an illusion of a chance. How do you convince 9 fit individuals to willingly go to their own death without resorting killing them next to the tent with knifes and bullets? You give them a chance, a small chance but a chance non the less. It’s a choice between die right now, or most likely die in a few hours but the die later still gives them a tiny hope that they can survive or at least some of them can survive. The second you strip everyone to their boxers, take every chance of survival off of the table and tell them to march, they become trapped animals with absolutely nothing to lose.

The way it was done, option 1 was stay and die immediately, option 2 was fight and likely die immediately with maybe a tiny chance of survival depending on how many attackers there were or option 3 was go to the treeline with a bigger chance of survival. You give someone the illusion of a way out and see them go to their deaths willingly or give them no illusion of a way out, corner them and risk a fight that might end up in a literal bloodbath with stab injuries and bullet wounds that cannot be from the yeti, ufo, avalanche, katabatic wind, infrasound or the dozens of other possibilities. It becomes a question of who killed them rather than what happened.

As for the flashlight? That would be more for the attackers than the Duyatlov group, they are ordered to carry the flashlight and periodically shine it to the individual members  to make sure they were all there. Otherwise why drop it before they get to the treeline.


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  Oh yes a d a camera?  Why would you let them take a camera when they may have snapped a photo of the attackers on it? 
What if it wasn’t with him initially? What if the attackers confiscated it and then subsequently placed it around his neck as a countermeasure?

Or since its 1959, they had a way to destroy the film without appearing to intentionally destroy the film.


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Then 450m down the slope they order them to drop the camera and continue?
Yes, otherwise if the Yeti is after them why on earth would they toss it aside and not go back?

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What about the injuries of the rav 4?  They could not have sustained those very far from where the bodies were found.  How are these explained?  Especially the Lyuda and Semyon, who both have massive chest trauma with no soft tissue damage, and both have their eyes missing.
I’m not a doctor so when I read the English version of the autopsy for Lyuda I didn’t really see where it said no bruising, but even if it does say that what could cause someone to get such damage with no bruising? Could the fact that it was cold slow down bruising?

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Lyuda's tongue is also missing a d her good bone with damage?  None of the have broken extremities or wrists, ankles.
Which means none of them fell and also it means they were likely held down by someone because otherwise at least one of them would have serious defensive injuries on their hands.


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Tbibi's skull injury which would have required at 450Kg of force is in exact proportion to the ball of a thumb on hand.  In this case it would had to  e a 30cm long hand which approximately the size of the hand of an ape. 
Or could it be that the temperature at the point of killing was low enough and their core temperatures were low enough to slow or prevent the bruising? Notice how there was a lot of bruising indicating of a fight for many of the hikers? So either it was two separate and unrelated incidents or the bruising was from earlier in the night when their core temperatures were higher because they were better dressed during the fight and had just come out of the tent and later on in the night they were significantly more cold due to being out in the elements for maybe as long as 8-10 hours so less bruising. I mean after all isn’t one of the actions to prevent or limit bruising adding ice to the area? And they will likely freeze soon after their deaths which wouldn’t have been that long after their injuries.

As for the deformed neck on Aleksander, did the yeti decide to break his neck rather than punch him?


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The injuries of Lyuda and Semyon are also consistent with the attack of a large ape - dragged beaten with heavy blows to the chest at a very shallow angle while lying on the ground.  A large fleshy padded hand is less likely to cause soft tissue damage.
Can you show me a picture of the large fleshy padded hand of a yeti?


 
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There is also evidence that Doroshenko climbed the cedar even though he had significant frost bite.  Why would he do that?
Maybe he climbed up to see if the coast was clear to the tent, or maybe he climbed up there to try and hide out of desperation or maybe everyone else had a task(gather firewood, build a shelter etc) and he was the only one left capable of climbing the tree as an early warning that someone was coming. I would expect someone would be on the look out for whoever or whatever attacked them, so why not him if he couldn’t do anything else?

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The problem with the human attack theory is that it requires a sequence of improbable unfortunate events to explain it.  Whilst the Yeti theory can be explained by ibe thing - a large powerful scary Yeti induced a panic and the hikers left in a hurry wearing and carrying whatever they had at the time.
The problem with the yeti is that no one has ever proven that the yeti exists to my knowledge and nothing of the sort has happened since in the region, whereas someone committing mass murder is almost a weekly occurrence in the world, it wouldn’t be the first time a governments secret police has murdered multiple people to get to one and it most likely will not be the last time a government murders multiple people to get to one or two people. Read up on Lavrentiy Beria and his actions and tell me how improbable it is that someone in a position of power in the Soviet Union in 1959 didn’t have the means order this for whatever reason they may have had.

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At some point the rav 4 were attacked and mauled.  The others were lost in the dark and died from the cold.  The problem with the Yeti theory is that we dont have any Yetis.  But a large ape like a mountain gorilla would be just as capable of causing the events.
So would a well trained team of people who have institutional knowledge of how to hurt people, how to kill people and how to cover their tracks when necessary.

You are saying that a scenario that was very likely for the time is improbable so the most likely answer is the yeti? Why did the yeti chase them from the tent, wait a few hours and go back to finish the job down by the tree line? Was it so security conscious that it did not want to leave witnesses?

Igor, Zina, Rustem and Yuri K had evidence of a fight on their bodies, which leads me to believe that they fought with the assailants at the tent and were subdued. Nikolay and Semyon were outside of the tent and were likely subdued without giving them a chance to fight while the rest didn’t react to the fight quickly enough and were restraint immediately or were already subdued. Now either the group fought with someone else in the days before their deaths and didn’t journal the incident, they fought with someone that day on the trail and it was unrelated, they fought amongst themselves so that means Igor, Zina, Rustem and Yuri K fought amongst themselves or whoever attacked them did not manage to subdue those 4 before they started swinging but managed to subdue them without killing them immediately or using obvious weapons(shooting or stabbing). What’s more likely, one prolonged violent event that led to their deaths or 2 separate events one with a group of people or amongst themselves and the other with a yeti?

If a yeti had been at the tent site there would be evidence and bodies around the tent, the hikers would have ran down the slope with their blankets in hand and a flashlight and the knife would have been found with them rather mysteriously teleport back to the tent after they used it and died. The last thing they would have done is throw away an ax, a flashlight and not bother grabbing any blankets or more knives. If they were in a hurry the tracks in the snow would indicate haste, what they indicate are a group of people who are walking away. So they were either in a panic in the tent and not in a panic on the walk down or they exited the tent through its entrance and walked calmly because they had rifles pointed at their backs. An ax would have increased their survival chances against a yeti or a human unless the human specifically ordered them to drop it.

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 21, 2020, 10:34:05 AM

It doesn't matter what they were worried about, if those two men were sentry's they would have had to have been armed if worried about animal/human attack while the rest of the group were dressed, packed and prepared for a hasty retreat and only  then do they go to sleep, dressed and ready to either evacuate immediately or fight to protect themselves. If those two men were sentry's the group failed miserably because they were unprepared for whatever befell them, or more likely from my perspective is that they were prepared, they went outside and were disarmed and forced to  undress and told to march, the two sentry's were released and told to go at the same time and no one bothered to force them to undress or in the dark the attackers underestimated the level of preparedness of the 2 men.

Sentry's give warning and the others respond because they are ready, having sentry's and being 2-5 minutes from being ready to respond to a threat negates the need for sentry's...unless this was in June/July high arctic and it was 24h days which would give them clear and high visibility for a couple of km from where the tent was situated. IF they were sentry’s, whatever they were worried about the group should have been ready to move on a moment’s notice, the Dyatlov group being scared enough to institute sentry’s but not enough to be prepared to react seems unlikely.

You're right, the sentries would require weapons to be effective.
Also, if expecting an attack, the ones inside the tent would have been better dressed (ready to sortie fast) - and they were not.

I would propose a solution that I have shared before: perhaps they saw something on Jan 31st/Fev 1st, but thought that "most likely" it was a Mansi hunter. A very tall one. They decided to keep a rotational watch all night long however, just in case. The basic scenario here would be that of a trouble-free night. The watch would be there just in case.




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How else can you explain a knife being used, but no knife being found?
By soldiers/3rd party messing around the scene after it was all over... Remember there was some sort of military-grade leg protection found inside the tent, and Yuri Yudin didn't recognize it as belonging to either one of the group.


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It’s a small tent, they have 7 people and 9 rucksacks inside an 8 men tent, if they were in such a panic as not to remember to bring their blankets, knives, clothes or flashlight they will be in enough of a hurry to fall over and knock things over, the floor was likely cluttered with rucksacks they were using to sit on.
In this case we don't know. We don't know what light there was inside the tent (if any) when the sentries were attacked. We don't know who cut the tent and we don't know how close the 7 occupants were to the 2 holes cut through the fabric.

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I don’t care about the last 1,100m my concern is the first few hundred meters. If they were in a panic at the tent, they should be in a panic in the first 500m, if they feel safe enough later on they can slow down or fatigue slows them down but to be in a panicked enough state to cut your only shelter in a Siberian forest at least 40km from civilization and leave in various states of undress I would expect the first few hundred meters to be a mad dash and the tracks should indicate that.

True. Perhaps the first 500meters they had the Yetis pursuing them, and they walked slowly , so as to keep an eye on the attackers, not do sudden moves, and be always on the lookout for any attack. Slow, deliberate walking, perhaps with the back on the slope (facing the tent and slowly moving away), in order not to disturb/challenge the animals anymore then they already were.

Best regards,
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on June 21, 2020, 04:06:26 PM


You're right, the sentries would require weapons to be effective.
Also, if expecting an attack, the ones inside the tent would have been better dressed (ready to sortie fast) - and they were not.

I would propose a solution that I have shared before: perhaps they saw something on Jan 31st/Fev 1st, but thought that "most likely" it was a Mansi hunter. A very tall one. They decided to keep a rotational watch all night long however, just in case. The basic scenario here would be that of a trouble-free night. The watch would be there just in case.
With the fact that at night there might be limited visibility due to obviously the dark, clouds, high wind blowing the snow etc... if the two men outside were sentry's they did absolutely nothing to improve their chances because a 30s or 45s advance notice does the hikers absolutely no good if they are undressed and needing 2 or 3 or 5 minutes to get dressed and grab the basic necessaries for survival in Siberia without their shelter.




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By soldiers/3rd party messing around the scene after it was all over... Remember there was some sort of military-grade leg protection found inside the tent, and Yuri Yudin didn't recognize it as belonging to either one of the group.
What were the military doing there? Some soldier picked it up and put it back in the tent but for what reason? And how would the Soviet military know what transpired in and around the tent?


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In this case we don't know. We don't know what light there was inside the tent (if any) when the sentries were attacked. We don't know who cut the tent and we don't know how close the 7 occupants were to the 2 holes cut through the fabric.
That's the mystery here, cutting their own tent conveys unbridled panic while the scene in the tent, their footsteps and the general state of the camp indicated calm, collected and intentional movement. The fact that no one even brought a single blanket, ax and in fact dropped both flashlights on opposite sides of the tent with one of them being on their way down towards the treeline and no one bothered to pick it up indicates to me it was completely intentional on someone's instructions.




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True. Perhaps the first 500meters they had the Yetis pursuing them, and they walked slowly , so as to keep an eye on the attackers, not do sudden moves, and be always on the lookout for any attack. Slow, deliberate walking, perhaps with the back on the slope (facing the tent and slowly moving away), in order not to disturb/challenge the animals anymore then they already were.
As far as I know none of the tracks indicate backing away, all of them indicate walking down the slope. But this brings me back to my point, the tent being cut indicates panic, you don't panic, cut your shelter and immediately turn calm and collected while the threat that forced you into a panic still exists.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on June 21, 2020, 11:57:27 PM


You're right, the sentries would require weapons to be effective.
Also, if expecting an attack, the ones inside the tent would have been better dressed (ready to sortie fast) - and they were not.

I would propose a solution that I have shared before: perhaps they saw something on Jan 31st/Fev 1st, but thought that "most likely" it was a Mansi hunter. A very tall one. They decided to keep a rotational watch all night long however, just in case. The basic scenario here would be that of a trouble-free night. The watch would be there just in case.
With the fact that at night there might be limited visibility due to obviously the dark, clouds, high wind blowing the snow etc... if the two men outside were sentry's they did absolutely nothing to improve their chances because a 30s or 45s advance notice does the hikers absolutely no good if they are undressed and needing 2 or 3 or 5 minutes to get dressed and grab the basic necessaries for survival in Siberia without their shelter.




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By soldiers/3rd party messing around the scene after it was all over... Remember there was some sort of military-grade leg protection found inside the tent, and Yuri Yudin didn't recognize it as belonging to either one of the group.
What were the military doing there? Some soldier picked it up and put it back in the tent but for what reason? And how would the Soviet military know what transpired in and around the tent?


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In this case we don't know. We don't know what light there was inside the tent (if any) when the sentries were attacked. We don't know who cut the tent and we don't know how close the 7 occupants were to the 2 holes cut through the fabric.
That's the mystery here, cutting their own tent conveys unbridled panic while the scene in the tent, their footsteps and the general state of the camp indicated calm, collected and intentional movement. The fact that no one even brought a single blanket, ax and in fact dropped both flashlights on opposite sides of the tent with one of them being on their way down towards the treeline and no one bothered to pick it up indicates to me it was completely intentional on someone's instructions.




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True. Perhaps the first 500meters they had the Yetis pursuing them, and they walked slowly , so as to keep an eye on the attackers, not do sudden moves, and be always on the lookout for any attack. Slow, deliberate walking, perhaps with the back on the slope (facing the tent and slowly moving away), in order not to disturb/challenge the animals anymore then they already were.
As far as I know none of the tracks indicate backing away, all of them indicate walking down the slope. But this brings me back to my point, the tent being cut indicates panic, you don't panic, cut your shelter and immediately turn calm and collected while the threat that forced you into a panic still exists.

A few points to think about:

There isn't much room inside the tent to allow them to run around in a panic throwing things about.  If there was something outside at the entrance then you would probably try to keep quite even if you were petrified.  Also it is very difficult to run in deep snow on a rocky slope in the dark.  They probably moved carefully and tried to stick together.

The event must have happened before most of them retired to sleep, as no diaries had been written. 

The sentries were probably not on watch outside.  They may have gone outside to relieve themselves. 

If you were retreating from so e kind of animal you would want to walk slowly and calmly to avoid triggering an attack.  Reports of big foot attacks commonly suggest the animals are cautious, throwing things and making noises initially.  As they grow more confident they close in and become more aggressive.  Other encounters have them being just as surprised as the humans and making a quick retreat.  If the hikers were in their territory and wanted them out the first scenario is more likely. 

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 22, 2020, 01:36:54 AM
With the fact that at night there might be limited visibility due to obviously the dark, clouds, high wind blowing the snow etc... if the two men outside were sentry's they did absolutely nothing to improve their chances because a 30s or 45s advance notice does the hikers absolutely no good if they are undressed and needing 2 or 3 or 5 minutes to get dressed and grab the basic necessaries for survival in Siberia without their shelter.

Perhaps they thought that the watchmen would be sufficient to protect from the threats. That is, if they realy had watchmen. Because thinking more about it, it does make little sense not to have weapons at hand for them.


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What were the military doing there? Some soldier picked it up and put it back in the tent but for what reason? And how would the Soviet military know what transpired in and around the tent?
My proposition is that a few days after the attack, some of the bodies were found by Mansi hunters, and they alerted the nearest military unit. The military sent an advance search team, that found some of the bodies, the tent and took some objects (cameras, films), and perhaps placed back other things - such as the knife. It may have been taken from curiosity , and later let down on the tent (perhaps someone gave an order to leave it).


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That's the mystery here, cutting their own tent conveys unbridled panic while the scene in the tent, their footsteps and the general state of the camp indicated calm, collected and intentional movement. The fact that no one even brought a single blanket, ax and in fact dropped both flashlights on opposite sides of the tent with one of them being on their way down towards the treeline and no one bothered to pick it up indicates to me it was completely intentional on someone's instructions.
That - or perhaps a Yeti knocked them out of their hands...




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As far as I know none of the tracks indicate backing away, all of them indicate walking down the slope. But this brings me back to my point, the tent being cut indicates panic, you don't panic, cut your shelter and immediately turn calm and collected while the threat that forced you into a panic still exists.
There is also the possibility that they exited through the normal exit of the tent, and the tent was sliced open later on , by the first military search (the one that put the knife back). The cuts could be made in order to search for documents hidden in the fabric.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on June 22, 2020, 02:38:09 PM
The figure in the photo.  A photo which appears to be gaining notoriety.  Why ?   Well the figure looks to be well over 6 foot tall.  Presumably add 1 or 2 feet for the snow, and that rules out any of the Dyatlov Group.   In fact it would rule out most people, wouldnt it  !  ? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on June 23, 2020, 10:18:54 PM

A few points to think about:

There isn't much room inside the tent to allow them to run around in a panic throwing things about.  If there was something outside at the entrance then you would probably try to keep quite even if you were petrified.  Also it is very difficult to run in deep snow on a rocky slope in the dark.  They probably moved carefully and tried to stick together.
The fact that it is a small and confined space leads me to believe that panic would have led to chaos inside due to the fact that everyone wants to leave at the same time. And since they were in a confined space and had to wait for the person cutting the tent to do so, one or more of them would have had the thought to reach out and grab a jacket or two, plus some boots and others would have grabbed their blankets, axes and knives. Afterall if there were 7 individuals inside the tent and they were thinking rationally and not in a state of panic, why didn't they reach out and grab a parka or two? Why didn't someone grab a pile of boots? Why didn't someone grab Blankets? They had to know if they are retreating in the cold, they might be gone for a long enough time for the axes, parka's, boots and blankets to come in handy. Instead they cut their tent and left with nothing, not a single person thought to keep a hold of their blanket, not a single person thought to reach and grab some boots or parka that was within arms reach.

As for something blocking the entrance? You may have a point if the tent was 30,40 or more feet long but the tent was barely 13 feet from one side to the other which is not that far and not something that would give them advantage in an escape, in fact if they were trying to escape it would be because someone/something was on the north side of the tent which is the exact opposite side of the cut and the hikers would be the furthest point from the threat at that point.

Panic and terrified are different things, they were all definitely terrified, whether it was humans, animals or some other force they were terrified, but panic is when people make decisions everyone will question because usually those decisions are made without too much thought and without too much higher control by the individuals, they commit to actions that might not be the best because they are in a state of panic and not thinking. Walking down the slope because its difficult/dangerous to do it at a run indicates they were thinking, panic would have them run without thinking, without consideration because they would want to put as much distance between themselves and the threat as they can.



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The sentries were probably not on watch outside.  They may have gone outside to relieve themselves.
Then they were not sentry's, they were just relieving themselves and happened to be outside when the initial events unfolded, if a yeti was outside and it surprised them, they would be seriously injured and/or dead at the tent site rather than dying 1.6km away and a few hours later.

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If you were retreating from so e kind of animal you would want to walk slowly and calmly to avoid triggering an attack.  Reports of big foot attacks commonly suggest the animals are cautious, throwing things and making noises initially.  As they grow more confident they close in and become more aggressive.  Other encounters have them being just as surprised as the humans and making a quick retreat.  If the hikers were in their territory and wanted them out the first scenario is more likely. 

If they had to cut out of their tent and retreat in little more then their thermals its a little too late to worry about triggering an attack, and seeing as there were 9 of them why didn't they turn and fight? I mean, I get fight or flight but out of the 9 of them no one chose fight? Fight for their only shelter, fight for their warm clothes, fight for their mode of transportation, fight for their food.

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on June 23, 2020, 10:25:42 PM
The figure in the photo.  A photo which appears to be gaining notoriety.  Why ?   Well the figure looks to be well over 6 foot tall.  Presumably add 1 or 2 feet for the snow, and that rules out any of the Dyatlov Group.   In fact it would rule out most people, wouldnt it  !  ?
And you got the height based off of what? The fact that there is an obvious track and snow accumulation around that track that looks to be about 18 inches deep which just happens to bring it to about knee level of a man who is 5'9 or 5'10 indicated that it is a person, the fact that there is something on his right hip similar to a holster indicates its a man. The only thing that gives us an indication of height is the depth of the snow compared to the track and that is barely visible.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on June 23, 2020, 11:00:34 PM

My proposition is that a few days after the attack, some of the bodies were found by Mansi hunters, and they alerted the nearest military unit. The military sent an advance search team, that found some of the bodies, the tent and took some objects (cameras, films), and perhaps placed back other things - such as the knife. It may have been taken from curiosity , and later let down on the tent (perhaps someone gave an order to leave it).
If the Russian military was there and they informed higher, they could very easily have grabbed two of the bodies and their bags, all the camera's and journals and fired off a few rounds from a pistol into the tent and the cedar tree area and make it appear that both men were using the trek to disappear/defect and the others tried to stop them. Once that gets reported the military is called in to replace the civilians and bringing in 200-300 conscripts to "hunt the murderers" would completely destroy all the evidence and you end up with 7 victims of a crime and 2 murderers everyone is out to get not realizing those two men are dead as well. Instead, if they were there after the killings they did just enough to make it seem like they were responsible.


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That - or perhaps a Yeti knocked them out of their hands...
If the Yeti was close enough to knock anything out of anyone's hands chances are those hands would suffer serious injuries and there might be bodies around the tent rather than the cedar tree and the ravine.




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There is also the possibility that they exited through the normal exit of the tent, and the tent was sliced open later on , by the first military search (the one that put the knife back). The cuts could be made in order to search for documents hidden in the fabric.
Did they think whoever killed them would hide evidence in the fabric of the tent belonging to the 9 people they just murdered? Those cuts would have been intentional, after the fact to indicate panic, because panic is the only reason 9 hikers would leave the safety of their tent in the middle of the night during winter while poorly dressed and walk 1.6km. If there was no cut at the tent, there would be a lot more people pointing at murder rather than Yeti/UFO/Avalanche/Infrasound etc...
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 24, 2020, 02:16:02 AM

If the Russian military was there and they informed higher, they could very easily have grabbed two of the bodies and their bags, all the camera's and journals and fired off a few rounds from a pistol into the tent and the cedar tree area and make it appear that both men were using the trek to disappear/defect and the others tried to stop them. Once that gets reported the military is called in to replace the civilians and bringing in 200-300 conscripts to "hunt the murderers" would completely destroy all the evidence and you end up with 7 victims of a crime and 2 murderers everyone is out to get not realizing those two men are dead as well. Instead, if they were there after the killings they did just enough to make it seem like they were responsible.
It was well known that the skiers did not have fire arms , and besides why would the military fire bullets ? As it was, the "natural deaths" explanation was put forward anyhow (it is still put forward in current years).
My thought is of a search mission - to discover what happened to the group. 



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If the Yeti was close enough to knock anything out of anyone's hands chances are those hands would suffer serious injuries and there might be bodies around the tent rather than the cedar tree and the ravine.
It depends on how the hits are made. The flashlight can be hit independently from the hand in some cases. Also , wounded comerades could be carried away by their friends, while the other members fight on.




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Did they think whoever killed them would hide evidence in the fabric of the tent belonging to the 9 people they just murdered?
No, they would look for documents the skiers had themselves hid in the fabric.
"Zolotaryov" is a key figure here: he joined the group only days before departure. His DNA does not match that of other Zolotaryov relatives. This means he wasn't Semyon Zolotaryov at all. We don't know who this man was or why he joined the group, or why did he say before departure "after this excursion we will become famous around the world".
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on June 24, 2020, 06:40:33 PM

It was well known that the skiers did not have fire arms , and besides why would the military fire bullets ? As it was, the "natural deaths" explanation was put forward anyhow (it is still put forward in current years).
My thought is of a search mission - to discover what happened to the group. 
The problem is that if the Soviet Government knew about the deaths in early February, a week or two before the search started in earnest then they really screwed up the investigation. Either they knew what happened and tried to cover it up the worst way possible or they had no interest in finding out what happened and closed the investigation early to do just that. Or there is a 3rd option and that is the government did a secret investigation to figure out what happened.

If they knew about the hikers before their bodies were discovered by the search and they either knew what happened to them or didn't care what happened to them and wanted to cover it up in a believable fashion it would be to grab two of the hiker's bodies, get rid of them and blame them for the 7 deaths. Firing off a few rounds explains how the two men controlled the other 7 and forced them to leave the safety of the tent and it also coincidently gives the Soviet Authorities the pretext to take complete control of the investigation, send away all civilians because this becomes a manhunt for armed criminals and they control the narrative, they control the crime scene and they control the evidence.

Instead if they were there in early February and they only moved the knife and maybe made a cut or two it make the investigation harder, and there were too many witnesses to their coverup which combined with the obvious tampering with the crime scene makes the government the number one suspect. If they knew they wanted to bury this case and any secrets that might come out of it, they went about it the one way it guaranteed to be a topic for discussion for years after it was shut down.



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It depends on how the hits are made. The flashlight can be hit independently from the hand in some cases. Also , wounded comrades could be carried away by their friends, while the other members fight on.
Wounded comrades would be very heavy in the cold night for their comrades to carry while mostly without warm clothing. There would be evidence that some of them were wounded on the decent based on their tracks as most likely if one of the mortally wounded people would either be completely carried by their friends or will be carried/dragged to safety. And even fi they were, they would have been found with the two men under the tree because they would have died shortly after they made it to the tree or even before. 




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No, they would look for documents the skiers had themselves hid in the fabric.
"Zolotaryov" is a key figure here: he joined the group only days before departure. His DNA does not match that of other Zolotaryov relatives. This means he wasn't Semyon Zolotaryov at all. We don't know who this man was or why he joined the group, or why did he say before departure "after this excursion we will become famous around the world".
Documents proving what? The only reason the Soviet army, or KGB or anyone would be cutting up anything to look for documents the skiers hid would be if they suspected the Dyatlov group or members of the Dyatlov Group of doing something against the Soviet government.


As for Zolotaryov:
https://dyatlovpass.com/semyon-zolotaryov (https://dyatlovpass.com/semyon-zolotaryov)

But even if it wasn't him, that is all that much more evidence that this was the work of one of the government agencies or a foreign government agency, because why would they look for evidence unless they suspect something and if they suspect something what are the chances that the yeti kills a guy who may very well be a western spy.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on June 25, 2020, 01:52:50 AM
The problem is that if the Soviet Government knew about the deaths in early February, a week or two before the search started in earnest then they really screwed up the investigation. Either they knew what happened and tried to cover it up the worst way possible or they had no interest in finding out what happened and closed the investigation early to do just that. Or there is a 3rd option and that is the government did a secret investigation to figure out what happened.
I'm thinking many times along the same lines.

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If they knew about the hikers before their bodies were discovered by the search and they either knew what happened to them or didn't care what happened to them and wanted to cover it up in a believable fashion it would be to grab two of the hiker's bodies, get rid of them and blame them for the 7 deaths. Firing off a few rounds explains how the two men controlled the other 7 and forced them to leave the safety of the tent and it also coincidently gives the Soviet Authorities the pretext to take complete control of the investigation, send away all civilians because this becomes a manhunt for armed criminals and they control the narrative, they control the crime scene and they control the evidence.
Adding bullets would be an unnecessary complication for them. As it was, the crime scene appeared to be the result of a hurricane or avalanche (those were the first theories put forward and the avalanche theory is the foremost investigated in the 2019 official re-examination of the case). Adding bullets would add a weapon. From where could the students get a weapon ? Etc.

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Instead if they were there in early February and they only moved the knife and maybe made a cut or two it make the investigation harder, and there were too many witnesses to their coverup which combined with the obvious tampering with the crime scene makes the government the number one suspect. If they knew they wanted to bury this case and any secrets that might come out of it, they went about it the one way it guaranteed to be a topic for discussion for years after it was shut down.
Most likely , the early search party (say Fev 10th-11th) found a few bodies, the tent, and probably thought the skiers succumbed to the elements.
Looking for documents, especially important ones, they might have cut open the tent...



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Wounded comrades would be very heavy in the cold night for their comrades to carry while mostly without warm clothing. There would be evidence that some of them were wounded on the decent based on their tracks as most likely if one of the mortally wounded people would either be completely carried by their friends or will be carried/dragged to safety. And even fi they were, they would have been found with the two men under the tree because they would have died shortly after they made it to the tree or even before. 
That is one of the aspects I find weary for this theory of Yeti: if tehre was an attack near the tent, no evidence remained (thrashed snow for example). The "8 or 9 set of footprints" also indicate that each skier walked on his/her own, or at least apparently (if there were 8 tracks, then the 9th could have been carried).

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Documents proving what? The only reason the Soviet army, or KGB or anyone would be cutting up anything to look for documents the skiers hid would be if they suspected the Dyatlov group or members of the Dyatlov Group of doing something against the Soviet government.
Absolutely so.
There is one theory that postulates that "Zolotaryov" and Dyatlov were KGB agents tasked with an important mission...


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But even if it wasn't him, that is all that much more evidence that this was the work of one of the government agencies or a foreign government agency, because why would they look for evidence unless they suspect something and if they suspect something what are the chances that the yeti kills a guy who may very well be a western spy.
Exactly. He may have been checked because he was expected to be having important documents on him.

Best Regards,
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on June 27, 2020, 05:45:22 PM
The figure in the photo.  A photo which appears to be gaining notoriety.  Why ?   Well the figure looks to be well over 6 foot tall.  Presumably add 1 or 2 feet for the snow, and that rules out any of the Dyatlov Group.   In fact it would rule out most people, wouldnt it  !  ?
And you got the height based off of what? The fact that there is an obvious track and snow accumulation around that track that looks to be about 18 inches deep which just happens to bring it to about knee level of a man who is 5'9 or 5'10 indicated that it is a person, the fact that there is something on his right hip similar to a holster indicates its a man. The only thing that gives us an indication of height is the depth of the snow compared to the track and that is barely visible.

I got the height based on an educated guess. The snow is probably between 1 to 2 foot deep. The visible figure looks nearer to 6 foot than 5 foot.  So add at least 1 foot for the snow and you get at least 7 foot. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Morski on June 28, 2020, 08:33:52 AM
The figure in the photo.  A photo which appears to be gaining notoriety.  Why ?   Well the figure looks to be well over 6 foot tall.  Presumably add 1 or 2 feet for the snow, and that rules out any of the Dyatlov Group.   In fact it would rule out most people, wouldnt it  !  ?
And you got the height based off of what? The fact that there is an obvious track and snow accumulation around that track that looks to be about 18 inches deep which just happens to bring it to about knee level of a man who is 5'9 or 5'10 indicated that it is a person, the fact that there is something on his right hip similar to a holster indicates its a man. The only thing that gives us an indication of height is the depth of the snow compared to the track and that is barely visible.

I got the height based on an educated guess. The snow is probably between 1 to 2 foot deep. The visible figure looks nearer to 6 foot than 5 foot.  So add at least 1 foot for the snow and you get at least 7 foot.

Educated guess? And still - based on what? It is more like just a wanna-be-true guess, not very educated. All those "measures" are pure wild speculation. You have absolutely no idea where the photo was taken, what was the actual depth of snow, or a clear view of the surrounding trees and environment, or how far was the one who took the photo from the subject... Looking at the picture, what only seems clear, is that whoever took the photo, stood lower - deliberately or because of the terrain.  You see there are chunks of snow blocking the view to the actual height of the body of the "creature", especially in front of "its" right (from our perspective - left) leg. All in all the terrain is rough and uneven.

So, is it better to refuse the most obvious and natural explanation, that it was a human, and more so - a member of the group, in favor of a mythical creature for which we have absolutely zero evidence?! And think about afterwords - what? They took a picture of a "creature", and they just went on their way as if nothing happened. Seeing a Yeti/Menk/Chupacabra/ALF deserves a little more attention, don`t you think? Oh, they wrote a whole line in the obviously satirical pamphlet, yeah.

This is a crystal clear case of a "black cat" here. You see what you want to see, dismissing all the relevant/natural options and explanations, and that is one of the reasons why we have 59283757252 theories.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on June 28, 2020, 03:54:46 PM
The figure in the photo.  A photo which appears to be gaining notoriety.  Why ?   Well the figure looks to be well over 6 foot tall.  Presumably add 1 or 2 feet for the snow, and that rules out any of the Dyatlov Group.   In fact it would rule out most people, wouldnt it  !  ?
And you got the height based off of what? The fact that there is an obvious track and snow accumulation around that track that looks to be about 18 inches deep which just happens to bring it to about knee level of a man who is 5'9 or 5'10 indicated that it is a person, the fact that there is something on his right hip similar to a holster indicates its a man. The only thing that gives us an indication of height is the depth of the snow compared to the track and that is barely visible.

I got the height based on an educated guess. The snow is probably between 1 to 2 foot deep. The visible figure looks nearer to 6 foot than 5 foot.  So add at least 1 foot for the snow and you get at least 7 foot.

Educated guess? And still - based on what? It is more like just a wanna-be-true guess, not very educated. All those "measures" are pure wild speculation. You have absolutely no idea where the photo was taken, what was the actual depth of snow, or a clear view of the surrounding trees and environment, or how far was the one who took the photo from the subject... Looking at the picture, what only seems clear, is that whoever took the photo, stood lower - deliberately or because of the terrain.  You see there are chunks of snow blocking the view to the actual height of the body of the "creature", especially in front of "its" right (from our perspective - left) leg. All in all the terrain is rough and uneven.

So, is it better to refuse the most obvious and natural explanation, that it was a human, and more so - a member of the group, in favor of a mythical creature for which we have absolutely zero evidence?! And think about afterwords - what? They took a picture of a "creature", and they just went on their way as if nothing happened. Seeing a Yeti/Menk/Chupacabra/ALF deserves a little more attention, don`t you think? Oh, they wrote a whole line in the obviously satirical pamphlet, yeah.

This is a crystal clear case of a "black cat" here. You see what you want to see, dismissing all the relevant/natural options and explanations, and that is one of the reasons why we have 59283757252 theories.



59283757252 theories  !  ?  Well I have never stated that it was anything other than a figure. I havnt said it was a YETI.  Yes it was my educated guess based on my knowledge of the great outdoors in various conditions, and also Tracking wild animals like Deer. I like others will have to guess the depth of snow where the figure appears. The Ski Tracks help a bit. And have you noticed the amount of snow on the Tree Trunks. That suggests to me that a lot of fresh snow fell in this area and therefore I would expect a lot of snow to be on the ground. At least a foot or maybe 2 foot of fairly fresh snow. My EDUCATED GUESS.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on June 30, 2020, 11:13:04 PM

Adding bullets would be an unnecessary complication for them. As it was, the crime scene appeared to be the result of a hurricane or avalanche (those were the first theories put forward and the avalanche theory is the foremost investigated in the 2019 official re-examination of the case). Adding bullets would add a weapon. From where could the students get a weapon ? Etc.
That's the thing though, you paint them as something more than students. They were defector/spies and the other 7 were good communists and loyal soviet citizens, you add the pistol as a means to explain how the 2 men controlled 7 fit individuals and then you also use the pistol as a means to bring in the army to search for those "defector/spies/murderers" and kick out all the civilians. When the army controls the entire mountainside it becomes an open and shut case, two men were using the hike as a cover to defect, they were confronted by the other 7 students and subsequently they pull pistols out and control the 7 people, order them out to the trees at gun point and a fight ensues, shots are fired and the group is once again subdued. The USSR blames the US for killing the hikers because those 2 men were obviously American spies, what is the US going to do? Deny it? How exactly would the US prove those two aren't somewhere in the US at the time of the funerals drinking beer getting debriefed? How do they prove they had nothing to do with it and none of their agents or SF teams were anywhere near the area in the time frame?



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Most likely , the early search party (say Fev 10th-11th) found a few bodies, the tent, and probably thought the skiers succumbed to the elements.
Looking for documents, especially important ones, they might have cut open the tent...
It’s a tent, the door was a lot easier to open than cut the tent, if they were looking they would open the door especially if they were local hunters or other hikers. If it was anyone other than Soviet Military they would have taken some pictures to show the authorities, taken a bearing and designated it on the map and then gone and shown the authorities. There would have been zero reason for anyone to cut the tent after the death of the hikers unless they were trying to create more doubt in the finding of a future investigation.



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That is one of the aspects I find weary for this theory of Yeti: if tehre was an attack near the tent, no evidence remained (thrashed snow for example). The "8 or 9 set of footprints" also indicate that each skier walked on his/her own, or at least apparently (if there were 8 tracks, then the 9th could have been carried).
The most likely explanation is that the two men who were outside were already subdued and could not fight back, as the 7 hikers from inside the tent walked out and we know that 4 of them, Krivoshenko, Slobodin, Dyatlov and Zinaida had injuries that appear to have been sustained in a fight. Those 4 start a fight, they are quickly overwhelmed but not before putting up some serious punches (evidenced by their injured hands) and Zinaida might have suffered her torso injury at that point. Once subdued they see that there is no way they can win and do as they are told while likely still holding on to the hope that they will get out of this alive by some miracle.

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Absolutely so.
There is one theory that postulates that "Zolotaryov" and Dyatlov were KGB agents tasked with an important mission...
The KGB were not armatures, they would have been able to stage the scene convincingly to answer most questions and leave anyone with doubt on the outside, instead what they had was a crime they knew about, handled so poorly by the authorities that here we are, more than 60 years later still discussing this and asking questions.


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Exactly. He may have been checked because he was expected to be having important documents on him.
 
So what are the chances that 1 or two KGB agents and 7-8 hikers were killed by a yeti while on a mission?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on June 30, 2020, 11:29:46 PM

I got the height based on an educated guess. The snow is probably between 1 to 2 foot deep. The visible figure looks nearer to 6 foot than 5 foot.  So add at least 1 foot for the snow and you get at least 7 foot.
My guess is based on the fact that I can just make out the tacks of their skis, one foot on the track and one foot knee deep in snow. The figure is not standing on the snow, he is knee deep in the snow. It's not one foot for the snow plus 6 feet, its one foot of snow in the 6 feet height.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on July 01, 2020, 02:29:13 AM
That's the thing though, you paint them as something more than students. They were defector/spies and the other 7 were good communists and loyal soviet citizens, you add the pistol as a means to explain how the 2 men controlled 7 fit individuals and then you also use the pistol as a means to bring in the army to search for those "defector/spies/murderers" and kick out all the civilians. When the army controls the entire mountainside it becomes an open and shut case, two men were using the hike as a cover to defect, they were confronted by the other 7 students and subsequently they pull pistols out and control the 7 people, order them out to the trees at gun point and a fight ensues, shots are fired and the group is once again subdued. The USSR blames the US for killing the hikers because those 2 men were obviously American spies, what is the US going to do? Deny it? How exactly would the US prove those two aren't somewhere in the US at the time of the funerals drinking beer getting debriefed? How do they prove they had nothing to do with it and none of their agents or SF teams were anywhere near the area in the time frame?
It's way to complicated to stage the scene like that. For starters, the 2 men would require fire arms. From where ? How would they get into possession of firearms ?
Then what would be the motive ? Everyone knew that the group was well welded together and they were good friends. This entire scenario would require a completely different group to work.



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It’s a tent, the door was a lot easier to open than cut the tent, if they were looking they would open the door especially if they were local hunters or other hikers. If it was anyone other than Soviet Military they would have taken some pictures to show the authorities, taken a bearing and designated it on the map and then gone and shown the authorities. There would have been zero reason for anyone to cut the tent after the death of the hikers unless they were trying to create more doubt in the finding of a future investigation.
I was saying about looking for documents hidden in the fabric of the tent...



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The most likely explanation is that the two men who were outside were already subdued and could not fight back, as the 7 hikers from inside the tent walked out and we know that 4 of them, Krivoshenko, Slobodin, Dyatlov and Zinaida had injuries that appear to have been sustained in a fight. Those 4 start a fight, they are quickly overwhelmed but not before putting up some serious punches (evidenced by their injured hands) and Zinaida might have suffered her torso injury at that point. Once subdued they see that there is no way they can win and do as they are told while likely still holding on to the hope that they will get out of this alive by some miracle.
That would be the case if they were attacked by military or other forces...


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The KGB were not armatures, they would have been able to stage the scene convincingly to answer most questions and leave anyone with doubt on the outside, instead what they had was a crime they knew about, handled so poorly by the authorities that here we are, more than 60 years later still discussing this and asking questions.
It is very likely that it was a crime.


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So what are the chances that 1 or two KGB agents and 7-8 hikers were killed by a yeti while on a mission?
Very remote.
But we don't know a lot of things:
- why did Zolotaryov say "we will be famous around the world" before leaving on the hike ? What did he expect to encounter/do on Mount Otorten or nearby that would be so important ?
- why did the skiers pitch their tent on the slope, in an exposed position to wind ? It was a realy bad place to camp. And it was completely different from what they've been doing the previous days (pitching tent in the forest).
- where is Zolotaryov's notebook (containing presumably his journal) ? How did it disappeared ?
- what are the mystery fireballs reported by eye-witnesses in the night of Fev 1st ?
- what caused Zolotaryov, Lyubidina's and Thibeaux-Brignolles's fractures ?
- what is the cause of the Mansi legend of the nine dead hunters on Kholat Syakl ?
- what is the cause of the Mansi legend about the people-abducting Menk ?

Those questions, and others like them, paint a complicated picture. It is possible that the group encountered something truly extraordinary on Fev 1st/2nd.

Best Regards,
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 01, 2020, 06:15:19 AM
When I first started out on this adventure if thats the right word to use, my first thought was that it may have been a Bear or Bears that caused the demise of the Dyatlov Group. But I spoke to a Russian friend and he was completely dismissive of the Bear Theory. I also had doubts because of the lack of Damage to the Tent, and no signs of a big altercation at the Tent. Having said that, Bears can be unpredictable. And an 8 foot Bear towering over you would make you flee. The nearest thing to a Bear would be the so called YETI CREATURES, that seem to appear to some people in various parts of the World. The problem then is that we have no specimens to even prove their existence. So we could end up making all sorts of claims for an unknown quantity to fit our various Events at the Mountainside and Forest where the Dyatlov Group ended up. The Tent. The Cedar Tree. The Fire. The Den. The Ravine.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on July 01, 2020, 11:11:35 PM
 
It's way to complicated to stage the scene like that. For starters, the 2 men would require fire arms. From where ? How would they get into possession of firearms ?
They were spies and their handlers gave them the pistols.

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Then what would be the motive ? Everyone knew that the group was well welded together and they were good friends. This entire scenario would require a completely different group to work.
There are marriages that last decades where someone hides their true self from their partner, there are people who work with someone for decades and call them a friend only to have that person turn out to be fake, there are people who kill themselves and no one could believe it because it was the guy who was always cracking jokes and smiling or it was the bubbly girl who seemed to be always happy.

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I was saying about looking for documents hidden in the fabric of the tent...
Why would they hide anything in the fabric of the tent?

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- why did Zolotaryov say "we will be famous around the world" before leaving on the hike ? What did he expect to encounter/do on Mount Otorten or nearby that would be so important ?
Maybe it was misunderstanding and he was saying he will be famous when he gets back because he will be a very successful guide?
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- why did the skiers pitch their tent on the slope, in an exposed position to wind ? It was a realy bad place to camp. And it was completely different from what they've been doing the previous days (pitching tent in the forest).
It could have been exhaustion, they were too tired to  make it to the treeline. It could have been a sudden snow storm that threatened their visibility or it could have been something as simple as they were losing daylight and decided the risks were worth it when compared to moving 1.6km to the tree line and pitching a tent in the dark.

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- where is Zolotaryov's notebook (containing presumably his journal) ? How did it disappeared ?
Suposedly someone from the search party found it in his hand and picked it up, it could have been too damaged for any recovery and was thrown out or it could have held a clue the investigation didn’t want to release or it could have been simply misplaced/forgotten about in someone’s bag and they didn’t want to come forward later and be accused of stealing it.

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- what are the mystery fireballs reported by eye-witnesses in the night of Fev 1st ?
Could have been a natural phenomenon, jet’s flying. In 1960 the flight plan of the American U2 that was shot down over the USSR took it within a few hundred km of the pass, could have been an American spy plane being shot at by air defence.

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- what caused Zolotaryov, Lyubidina's and Thibeaux-Brignolles's fractures ?
Butt of a rifle, baton, rock, for Zolotaryov and Dubinina it could have been hit repeatedly by the butt of a rifle, a baton, they could have been stomped, hit by a rock or it could have been some form of fighting technique or torture technique applying pressure to certain areas of the body to inflict injuries or pain.

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- what is the cause of the Mansi legend of the nine dead hunters on Kholat Syakl ?
Unless we have proof that they actually disappeared, it could have been a legend born after the death of the hikers or it could have been 9 hunters dying over 5 years and with every retelling it gets changed until its 9 hunters dying at once.

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- what is the cause of the Mansi legend about the people-abducting Menk ?
Just a legend, or it could be a story used to scare the children only to be believed by those so inclined after the death of the hikers.

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Those questions, and others like them, paint a complicated picture. It is possible that the group encountered something truly extraordinary on Fev 1st/2nd.
Is it really that likely though? The 4 hikers that were engaged in the fight wouldn’t have survived without significant and very obvious injuries of a fight with something that outclassed them, if a yeti did the damage to the 4 in the ravine, why didn’t the Yeti do such damage to the faces of Dyatlov and Zinaida? I mean if the Yeti could crush all those ribs in one punch and fracture a skull, why didn’t it simply smash their faces with one punch?


Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: alecsandros on July 02, 2020, 01:19:12 AM
They were spies and their handlers gave them the pistols.
It is conceivable, but it still is a huge complication from the "natural phenomenons" that are officialy blamed (avalanche, snow slab, hurricane, etc). Gun circulation was strictly controlled in the USSR and satellite countries, therefore producing two pistols would require a lot of measures to be taken.

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There are marriages that last decades where someone hides their true self from their partner, there are people who work with someone for decades and call them a friend only to have that person turn out to be fake, there are people who kill themselves and no one could believe it because it was the guy who was always cracking jokes and smiling or it was the bubbly girl who seemed to be always happy.
Agreed but still it is a complication that they wouldn't want...

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Why would they hide anything in the fabric of the tent?
To be difficult to find by the others.

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Maybe it was misunderstanding and he was saying he will be famous when he gets back because he will be a very successful guide?
Perhaps...
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It could have been exhaustion, they were too tired to  make it to the treeline. It could have been a sudden snow storm that threatened their visibility or it could have been something as simple as they were losing daylight and decided the risks were worth it when compared to moving 1.6km to the tree line and pitching a tent in the dark.
The day of Fev 1st is interesting: the group travelled just one kilometre before setting camp. That's very little. The labaz was erected on Jan 31st, thus they had the entire day of Fev 1st for hiking. Yet they pitched their tent on a barren slope. And, after hiking 1 kilometre, they couldn't be exhausted or even tired...

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Suposedly someone from the search party found it in his hand and picked it up, it could have been too damaged for any recovery and was thrown out or it could have held a clue the investigation didn’t want to release or it could have been simply misplaced/forgotten about in someone’s bag and they didn’t want to come forward later and be accused of stealing it.
Agreed. But , as anything that goes missing, this piece of evidence may hold important clues...

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Could have been a natural phenomenon, jet’s flying. In 1960 the flight plan of the American U2 that was shot down over the USSR took it within a few hundred km of the pass, could have been an American spy plane being shot at by air defence.
What Lev Ivanov is describing are not fighter jets. He is describing, after putting together the memories of dozens of individuals, apparently sentient fireorbs, that descended and caused the Dyatlov Pass Incident...


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Is it really that likely though? The 4 hikers that were engaged in the fight wouldn’t have survived without significant and very obvious injuries of a fight with something that outclassed them, if a yeti did the damage to the 4 in the ravine, why didn’t the Yeti do such damage to the faces of Dyatlov and Zinaida? I mean if the Yeti could crush all those ribs in one punch and fracture a skull, why didn’t it simply smash their faces with one punch?
Well, certainly not likely.
However, stranger things have happened... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beast_of_G%C3%A9vaudan)

Regarding the damage done to the hikers - it would depend on the fight, where and when did the Yeti strike, etc. Even if outclassed, the skiers could put up a good fight, even armed with pocket knives. They were possibly more nimble then the Yeti, and thus could dodge it's attacks more then once.

Best Regards,
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Georgi on July 02, 2020, 09:57:52 PM
It is conceivable, but it still is a huge complication from the "natural phenomenons" that are officialy blamed (avalanche, snow slab, hurricane, etc). Gun circulation was strictly controlled in the USSR and satellite countries, therefore producing two pistols would require a lot of measures to be taken.
Problem with the natural explanation is that it very obviously wasn’t one natural event, if it was natural it would have had to be a series of events and the hikers had to basically make the worst decision at each fork in the road for them to arrive to their deaths with such injuries. Plus if it was natural incident the soviet authorities would have been more serious with the investigation to prevent such incidents in the future because if nothing else you don’t want to be back there in a few months to a few years with more dead hikers, instead they tried to bury the investigation and end it with some half-assed assessment that it was an avalanche when it clearly wasn’t since we have pictures of the tent which was not completely covered in snow and we have footprints of the hikers which were also not covered in snow. What are the chances that 9 experienced hikers would panic in the dark, cut their own tent and then slowly walk down the hill to the treeline with most of them being poorly dressed to a degree where they guarantee serious bodily harm or death?

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Agreed but still it is a complication that they wouldn't want...
Yet here we are 61 years later still throwing around theories. The complication is that they very obviously tried to cover the incident up with a quick and predetermined investigation and left much more suspicions in their wake, so if they knew 1-2 weeks before the search got there, they sure screwed that up.

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To be difficult to find by the others.
 
If they are spy’s yeah they would have creative ways to hide information, if they are hikers they would keep their papers or diaries with them. You have to have something worth hiding to hide it in such a manner, so for someone to go and search the tent in such a manner would mean that there is more to one or more of the hikers than we know about.

 
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The day of Fev 1st is interesting: the group travelled just one kilometre before setting camp. That's very little. The labaz was erected on Jan 31st, thus they had the entire day of Fev 1st for hiking. Yet they pitched their tent on a barren slope. And, after hiking 1 kilometre, they couldn't be exhausted or even tired...

If I remember correctly, somewhere it said they traveled further and had to double back, so while they made 1km advance they likely traveled further. Another option is an injury to one of the hikers forced them to set up camp on the slope rather than try to make it to the treeline, that person doesn’t have to be incapacitated, they just have to be in significant enough pain to warrant them camping on the slope.

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Agreed. But , as anything that goes missing, this piece of evidence may hold important clues...
This leads us further into the argument that there was human involvement, but it could also be something as simple as someone walking away with a souvenir or it was damaged in the water and whoever found it tossed it away at a later time because it had no value to anyone.