Exploring The Yeti Theory

[sarapuk]

That sounds interesting. Same hands or hands attached to arms that could have crushed Dubinina's chest maybe. No human could cause those type of Chest injuries.

That is a very bold statement with no factual basis. Rib fractures are often inflicted y manual resuscitation so I see no reason that even 8-9 ribs could have been broken by for example stomping on person's chest while lying down on the floor. The force equals attaker weight multiplied by acceleration. This is very basic medical knowledge.

https://www.primemedicaltraining.com/does-cpr-break-ribs/

No suggestion of Human Involvement in those Injuries in the original Investigation and Autopsy  !  ? 

[sarapuk]

Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

In other words no Human hands could have crushed the Skull.

https://www.sciencealert.com/game-of-thrones-exposed-the-science-of-skull-crushing

Actually, quite the opposite. Static force vs. dynamic force. I provided the example that completely dismisses above claim about "no human hands could have crushed the skull". As it happened before even unintentionally, it is possible.

I think you will find plenty of evidence that suggests that NO HUMAN HANDS could crush another Humans Skull.

[Star man]

Have been looking at Rustems head injury in a bit more detail:

In the autopsy report it explains that there are diffuse haemorrhages into "both" temporal muscles.  Now Rustem's fracture looks like it begins from the left temporal region, but he also has a very similar injury on the opposite side of his head.  Now Thibo's autopsy report clearly mentions the haemorrhage on the same side of the crush injury, but nothing about the other side of his head.  Is this because there is nothing to report, or is it because the report focuses more specifically on the obvious significant injury?  I would have thought that for an autopsy report that everything is important to catalogue?  But the reports for the Dyatlov group do seem to be lacking in some respects.

It is possible that Rustem slowly succumbs to the cold and repeatedly falls hitting his head and resulting in the fracutre.  He has lots of minor abrasions on his face that would point to this.  It is also possible that he has sustained blows to both sides of his head.  What I find odd though is that both these injuries are almost directly opposite each other.

Regards

Star man

[gypsy]

Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

In other words no Human hands could have crushed the Skull.

https://www.sciencealert.com/game-of-thrones-exposed-the-science-of-skull-crushing

Actually, quite the opposite. Static force vs. dynamic force. I provided the example that completely dismisses above claim about "no human hands could have crushed the skull". As it happened before even unintentionally, it is possible.

I think you will find plenty of evidence that suggests that NO HUMAN HANDS could crush another Humans Skull.

It is enough to find ONE piece of evidence that it is possible to prove that wrong. I provided an article along with X.ray scans of similar fracture caused by kicking with a knee.

Here we have some more, it is about time to retract your statement, use google to find even more examples: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/mma/bellator-158-evangelista-cyborg-santos-video-fractured-skull-michael-venom-page-flying-knee-knockout-a7142211.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2952091/Teenager-fractured-19-year-old-s-skull-single-punch-victim-asked-light-McDonald-s-SPARED-prison.html

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10831229_Punched_With_A_Fist_The_Etiology_of_a_Fatal_Depressed_Cranial_Fracture

[gypsy]

That sounds interesting. Same hands or hands attached to arms that could have crushed Dubinina's chest maybe. No human could cause those type of Chest injuries.

That is a very bold statement with no factual basis. Rib fractures are often inflicted y manual resuscitation so I see no reason that even 8-9 ribs could have been broken by for example stomping on person's chest while lying down on the floor. The force equals attaker weight multiplied by acceleration. This is very basic medical knowledge.

https://www.primemedicaltraining.com/does-cpr-break-ribs/

No suggestion of Human Involvement in those Injuries in the original Investigation and Autopsy  !  ?

Absolutely irrelevant. There is no cause mentioned at all which leaves all technically plausible options on the table.

[Star man]

Further thoughts on Rustem skull fracture and a pattern that is becoming more clear with the injuries of the rav 4:

Rustem injury to his head could have been caused by him first being knocked to the floor and subsequently receiving a heavy blow to the right hand side of his head in the temporal region.  If his head was slightly raised then the blow would knock the right side of his head against the floor thus sustaining both the fracture on the left and diffuse bleeding in the right temporal muscle.  The scratches on his face are consistent with being dragged by his leg.

Now let’s look at Lyuda.  Significant soft tissue damage to face and eye lids, lips and tissue loss .  Again this is consistent with being dragged around violently by her leg.  The rib fractures could have been caused by two significant blows to the thorax.  Each fracture would have required 800kg of force and possibly even a bit more.  Saying that Lyuda May have suffered many more less powerful blows but probably not.

Semyon shows the same pattern of tissue loss around eye brows a significant laceration on his head and the heavy blow to the ribs causing a flail chest.

Thibo- as well as the ball of the thumb being the same shape as his crush injury- so is bottom of the side of hand (at base of little finger.

There appears to a pattern there.  It looks like they were first knocked to the ground. Worried or dragged- some more than others and beaten by someone or something very very powerful - using more force than any normal human being could generate.

Regards
Star man

[Star man]

The puzzle at the tent:

Why did the tourists frantically leave the tent- not stopping to collect essential clothing shoes and equipment- and then calmly walk down the slope?  It doesn’t make sense.  Yet the foot prints suggest this is what happened?

So let me ask you a question:

The group are disturbed by something outside the tent.  Something very unusual and realise there is some kind of dangerous creature outside.  In fear they leave the tent and are confronted by this very dangerous creature.  Now here is the question.  Do you:

A - run away down the slope screaming as you go?
B - move away slowly and quietly away from the creature and down the slope?

No need to actually answer- just think about it.

Regards
Star man

[gypsy]

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.

Just another observation relevant to the above post:

Zina long bruise.  29 cm long or about 12 inches.  Coincidence?

Regards
Star man

I think it's highly plausible that the same 'weapon' inflicted the injuries to the people in the same area. However, it is hard to determine what that was from evidence we have. In case of Tibo, the cap probably prevented soft tissue damage and even on other bodies we cannot see the hemorrhage developed properly due to cold conditions.

Just from observation, I think it would be much easier to inflict that kind of damage by foot (especially the rib fractures) rather than hands. Seems too inefficient to do that with hands as long as easier way exists.

[Star man]

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.

Just another observation relevant to the above post:

Zina long bruise.  29 cm long or about 12 inches.  Coincidence?

Regards
Star man

I think it's highly plausible that the same 'weapon' inflicted the injuries to the people in the same area. However, it is hard to determine what that was from evidence we have. In case of Tibo, the cap probably prevented soft tissue damage and even on other bodies we cannot see the hemorrhage developed properly due to cold conditions.

Just from observation, I think it would be much easier to inflict that kind of damage by foot (especially the rib fractures) rather than hands. Seems too inefficient to do that with hands as long as easier way exists.

Hi Gypsy,

Yes I the injuries could be caused by the same weapon too, but could it not have been a very large powerful hand?

Zina was only swiped.  The others were beaten to death?

Regards
Star man

[Star man]

The camera and the knife:

The rav four must have had a knife? To cut the clothes off their dead friends and cut the branches for the den.  So what happened to the knife.  Did it just walk off by itself?

Semyon camera - found still hanging around his neck.  Why would human murders just leave it?  And where are the 9 missing frames?

Of course if the murderer was a Yeti I doubt it would be interested in a camera?

Regards
Star man



Regards
Star man

[gypsy]

Hi Gypsy,

Yes I the injuries could be caused by the same weapon too, but could it not have been a very large powerful hand?

Zina was only swiped.  The others were beaten to death?

Regards
Star man

I don't mean to be specific about the "weapon". It could be anything. It is just natural to assume that people who found their demise at the same place and time have a common cause of death.

I will ask a question. Do you thing that the injuries were intentional or accidential?
I'm not looking for a straight answer, I'd rather hear what speaks for or against one or another.

[Star man]

Hi Gypsy,

Yes I the injuries could be caused by the same weapon too, but could it not have been a very large powerful hand?

Zina was only swiped.  The others were beaten to death?

Regards
Star man

I don't mean to be specific about the "weapon". It could be anything. It is just natural to assume that people who found their demise at the same place and time have a common cause of death.

I will ask a question. Do you thing that the injuries were intentional or accidential?
I'm not looking for a straight answer, I'd rather hear what speaks for or against one or another.

Hi Gypsy,

It depends on the context of the question.  I believ the whole thing was unintentional.  But the specific injuries were intentional, but not with intelligent malign.

I believe that I now know what happened on the pass.  And I will present my views in a new topic under general discussion called

"what really happened on the pass"

Regards

Star man
I now believe that the injuries were intentional.

[Star man]

When I started this thread I didn't actually think that I would discover anything of interest, but I wanted to do this topic justice and approach it in an objective way.  I was a skeptic of the Yeti theory.  But I am no where near as skeptical now as when I started this thread.

I think there is clear evidence that the Dyatlov group were attacked by an ape(s) or an ape like creature.  The feedback I have received on whether a normal ape would be capable of overwhelming 9 fit healthy tourists is reasonable.  Given that there were axes, ice picks, knives and 9 physically fit and strong people why could they not have killed or at least driven a normal ape away?  Also why would a normal ape be on Kholat Syakhl in a storm in the middle of nowhere?  Yet the injuries sustained by at least some of the group are consistent with an attack from an ape,like creature.  A creature capable of inflicting immensely powerful blows.  A creature that had hands.

In previous posts ai have made some calculations around the hands of this creature.  Thibo's head injury shape is consistent with shape of the pads of the hand.  Either the ball of the thumb, or the pad on the side of the hand where the little finger is.  The radius of curvature of the injury on Thibo's head is consistent with the radius of curvature of the pad of the hand.  The force required to cause Thibo's head injury is beyon that which a human being can muster with their bare hands.

The pattern of injuries on Lyuda and Semyon is consistent with some kind of ape attack.  The blows required to inflict those injuries would need to be in excess of 800kg force.  The pattern of damage to the head and face and loss of soft tissue is consistent with being dragged around the ground violently.  And yes Luda's eyes, tongue and Semyon's eyes could well have been ripped out by this creature, either during the assault or later after they had died.

With regard to the Yeti - what could be a myth is the size of their feet, and whether they are entirely bipedal or partly quadrupeds.  If they are partly quadrupeds then their feet would not require to be that large as their weight would also be taken up by their hands as they moved about.  However, the shape of their feet may be very close to humans.

Rustems head injury is also consistent with the same type of attack but to a lesser severity.

It seems zina and Dyatlov avoided a fatal confrontation with this creature, but died of hypothermia.

Yuris D definitely climbed the cedar in desperation to find safety.  He probably clanged onto this tree for some time as his fingers and toes were so frost bitten by the time the fire was lit that hemwouldnhave had to have them amputated.

The witness statements say that when the group were descending the slope, some of the group members split off for a while and then came back to join the main group.  This is odd.  Why would they do that?  Unless those that split off were not group members, or even human.  Instead is it possible that they were ape like creatures, stalking the terrified group as they descended the slope, while periodically moving toward them and attacking them as descended? Initially, the group would have been strong and maybe capable of defending themselves, but as time went by the cold played its part, and slowly the group became weaker until they could not longer fend off any attacks?

When I examine a theory I like to find evidence to support it.  Some the evidence is presented in previous posts on this thread.  But there is something else that could be done:

1.  I would suggest that an expert Primatologist examines any available photographs of the foot prints.  Also, an expert Primatologist consider the pattern of injuries and the power required to inflict them.

For Lyuda's injury I have estimated a force in excess of 800kgs.  I don't even think a Chimpanzee can inflict such sever injury or generate such force.  A mountain Gorilla maybe, but even this would probably be at the limit of what it could do.  Also chimps and Gorillas are normally gentle creatures unless deliberately provoked.  So what was on the pass that night?

Regards

Star man

[NkZ]

I've always been sentimental on the possibility of Yeti, even if demographic statistics are not in favor!
There is indeed a long history of sightings in the area : http://www.alamas.ru/eng/publicat/Tracks_near_Ob_e.htm
http://www.stgr-primates.de/news.html
So many legends might have a little real ground?

[Star man]

I've always been sentimental on the possibility of Yeti, even if demographic statistics are not in favor!
There is indeed a long history of sightings in the area : http://www.alamas.ru/eng/publicat/Tracks_near_Ob_e.htm
http://www.stgr-primates.de/news.html
So many legends might have a little real ground?

I am a lot more receptive to it than I was.  I would like to know if a normal great ape could cause those injuries?

Thanks for the links.

Regards

Star man

[Star man]

The Dyatlov pass incident is  a complicated mystery. For certain whatever happened that night was unusual.

Identifying the single common denominator that could help explain the events at the tent, the slope, the cedar, and the ravine along with the strange injuries may go some way to help solve the mystery.

I now believe that the single common denominator could well be the involvement of an ape or ape like creature.  I have presented my thoughts on this below:

The Tent
Whatever made the group leave the tent without adequate clothing or shoes the way they did must have been terrifying and a significant threat to their lives.  The tent appears to have been cut from inside (at least for three of the cuts). Page 303 of the case files provides good evidence of this.  I suspect that much of the damage though was done during the recovery of the tent.

So what happened at the tent?  Semyon grabs his camera.  If he had seen something strange like an ape on Kholat Syakhl that would be a reasonable reason to grab a camera and try to take a photo.  Maybe he or the others did not realise the danger at first. But then whatever it was became aggressive and attacked them.

I suspect that some of them ran back into the tent and were followed by this creature which now blocked their only means of escape. Kolevatov may have pulled his knife from its sheath outside and then retreated into the tent.  Those in the tent then attempted to cut the fabric to make a new exit while others tried to fend off the attacker.  There is evidence that the group engaged in some kind of fight with their hands.  Why the axes or ice pick were left at the entrance is difficult to explain but could simply be because of the level of panic.

After leaving the now damaged tent the group cautiously retreat down the slope.  Note that the foot prints of an ape are similar to that of a human but the big toe is more thumb like and would be shorter.

The slope

There is evidence that while they descended the slope they were attacked again.  The flash light 400m from the tent was dropped but not picked back up indicating confusion, haste, or fear of returning to where the flash light was dropped.  The group had items of equipment that other humans would unlikely allow them to take with them if their attackers had been human - knife, flashlight, camera, matches.  The whole scene indicates that they were under duress but not from any human foe.


Rustem probably didn’t make it to the cedar.  It appears that he was attacked and fought back.  His injuries are consistent with a fist fight and receiving a heavy blow to the head while he was on the ground. The diffuse bleeding in both temporal muscles is an indicator of this.

When the group get to the cedar there is clear evidence that they scrambled up the tree for safety.  The scrapes, minor lacerations around arm pits is an indicator of this plus the skin found on the bark.  But the main clue is Yuri D who’s fingers and toes were so badly frost bitten that he would have needed to have them amputated if he had survived.  This must have happened before the fire was lit indicating that Yuri D was clinging to the tree for a while along with Yuri K who had bit a piece of skin off the back of his hand.

The fire was probably lit to keep warm and also to keep something away.  But whenever it was lit it was too late for Yuri D and Yuri K.

The ravine

Thibo’s head injury is the same shape as the pad of a hand.  The force required to cause that injury would be in excess of 450kg.  No human could do that with their bare hands.  The lack of soft tissue damage is also supported by an impact From something soft  like the pad of a hand but with tremendous force.  Thibo’s head injury if happened in isolation could be explained by a fall, but combined with Lyuda and Semyon it indicates something more sinister and akin to them being attacked and beaten by something with super human strength.  Lyuda and Semyon injuries could also be explained by a fall.  The force required to cause Lyuda and Semyon’s injuries from a single impact would be 2500 kg, but the lack of injuries to limbs, ankles and wrists is unusual.  Together there is a clear pattern that they have been attacked, knocked to the ground dragged around violently and beaten severely again with super human force.

The signs of hand to hand combat combined with these injuries is clear evidence of confrontation with something very powerful.

Another key indicator of a confrontation with some kind of powerful animal is the fact that although the group had at least one knife the attacker has used primitive methods (ie beaten them to death). 

Regards
Star man

[sarapuk]

Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

In other words no Human hands could have crushed the Skull.

https://www.sciencealert.com/game-of-thrones-exposed-the-science-of-skull-crushing

Actually, quite the opposite. Static force vs. dynamic force. I provided the example that completely dismisses above claim about "no human hands could have crushed the skull". As it happened before even unintentionally, it is possible.

I think you will find plenty of evidence that suggests that NO HUMAN HANDS could crush another Humans Skull.

It is enough to find ONE piece of evidence that it is possible to prove that wrong. I provided an article along with X.ray scans of similar fracture caused by kicking with a knee.

Here we have some more, it is about time to retract your statement, use google to find even more examples: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/mma/bellator-158-evangelista-cyborg-santos-video-fractured-skull-michael-venom-page-flying-knee-knockout-a7142211.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2952091/Teenager-fractured-19-year-old-s-skull-single-punch-victim-asked-light-McDonald-s-SPARED-prison.html

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10831229_Punched_With_A_Fist_The_Etiology_of_a_Fatal_Depressed_Cranial_Fracture

One injury was due to a KNEE. The other was due to an old injury made worse by the blow to the head with a FIST. Nothing about Heads being crushed by Human HANDS  !  ? 

[sarapuk]

That sounds interesting. Same hands or hands attached to arms that could have crushed Dubinina's chest maybe. No human could cause those type of Chest injuries.

That is a very bold statement with no factual basis. Rib fractures are often inflicted y manual resuscitation so I see no reason that even 8-9 ribs could have been broken by for example stomping on person's chest while lying down on the floor. The force equals attaker weight multiplied by acceleration. This is very basic medical knowledge.

https://www.primemedicaltraining.com/does-cpr-break-ribs/

No suggestion of Human Involvement in those Injuries in the original Investigation and Autopsy  !  ?

Absolutely irrelevant. There is no cause mentioned at all which leaves all technically plausible options on the table.

You contradict yourself then. All the possible causes must be relevant even if not proved.

[sarapuk]

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.

Just another observation relevant to the above post:

Zina long bruise.  29 cm long or about 12 inches.  Coincidence?

Regards
Star man

I think it's highly plausible that the same 'weapon' inflicted the injuries to the people in the same area. However, it is hard to determine what that was from evidence we have. In case of Tibo, the cap probably prevented soft tissue damage and even on other bodies we cannot see the hemorrhage developed properly due to cold conditions.

Just from observation, I think it would be much easier to inflict that kind of damage by foot (especially the rib fractures) rather than hands. Seems too inefficient to do that with hands as long as easier way exists.

And yet the original Investigation suggests injuries likened to a CAR CRASH. Hardly the work of someones foot then.

[sarapuk]

I've always been sentimental on the possibility of Yeti, even if demographic statistics are not in favor!
There is indeed a long history of sightings in the area : http://www.alamas.ru/eng/publicat/Tracks_near_Ob_e.htm
http://www.stgr-primates.de/news.html
So many legends might have a little real ground?

Well done digging up this information.

[Star man]

The Dyatlov pass incident is  a complicated mystery. For certain whatever happened that night was unusual.

Identifying the single common denominator that could help explain the events at the tent, the slope, the cedar, and the ravine along with the strange injuries may go some way to help solve the mystery.

I now believe that the single common denominator could well be the involvement of an ape or ape like creature.  I have presented my thoughts on this below:

The Tent
Whatever made the group leave the tent without adequate clothing or shoes the way they did must have been terrifying and a significant threat to their lives.  The tent appears to have been cut from inside (at least for three of the cuts). Page 303 of the case files provides good evidence of this.  I suspect that much of the damage though was done during the recovery of the tent.

So what happened at the tent?  Semyon grabs his camera.  If he had seen something strange like an ape on Kholat Syakhl that would be a reasonable reason to grab a camera and try to take a photo.  Maybe he or the others did not realise the danger at first. But then whatever it was became aggressive and attacked them.

I suspect that some of them ran back into the tent and were followed by this creature which now blocked their only means of escape. Kolevatov may have pulled his knife from its sheath outside and then retreated into the tent.  Those in the tent then attempted to cut the fabric to make a new exit while others tried to fend off the attacker.  There is evidence that the group engaged in some kind of fight with their hands.  Why the axes or ice pick were left at the entrance is difficult to explain but could simply be because of the level of panic.

After leaving the now damaged tent the group cautiously retreat down the slope.  Note that the foot prints of an ape are similar to that of a human but the big toe is more thumb like and would be shorter.

The slope

There is evidence that while they descended the slope they were attacked again.  The flash light 400m from the tent was dropped but not picked back up indicating confusion, haste, or fear of returning to where the flash light was dropped.  The group had items of equipment that other humans would unlikely allow them to take with them if their attackers had been human - knife, flashlight, camera, matches.  The whole scene indicates that they were under duress but not from any human foe.


Rustem probably didn’t make it to the cedar.  It appears that he was attacked and fought back.  His injuries are consistent with a fist fight and receiving a heavy blow to the head while he was on the ground. The diffuse bleeding in both temporal muscles is an indicator of this.

When the group get to the cedar there is clear evidence that they scrambled up the tree for safety.  The scrapes, minor lacerations around arm pits is an indicator of this plus the skin found on the bark.  But the main clue is Yuri D who’s fingers and toes were so badly frost bitten that he would have needed to have them amputated if he had survived.  This must have happened before the fire was lit indicating that Yuri D was clinging to the tree for a while along with Yuri K who had bit a piece of skin off the back of his hand.

The fire was probably lit to keep warm and also to keep something away.  But whenever it was lit it was too late for Yuri D and Yuri K.

The ravine

Thibo’s head injury is the same shape as the pad of a hand.  The force required to cause that injury would be in excess of 450kg.  No human could do that with their bare hands.  The lack of soft tissue damage is also supported by an impact From something soft  like the pad of a hand but with tremendous force.  Thibo’s head injury if happened in isolation could be explained by a fall, but combined with Lyuda and Semyon it indicates something more sinister and akin to them being attacked and beaten by something with super human strength.  Lyuda and Semyon injuries could also be explained by a fall.  The force required to cause Lyuda and Semyon’s injuries from a single impact would be 2500 kg, but the lack of injuries to limbs, ankles and wrists is unusual.  Together there is a clear pattern that they have been attacked, knocked to the ground dragged around violently and beaten severely again with super human force.

The signs of hand to hand combat combined with these injuries is clear evidence of confrontation with something very powerful.

Another key indicator of a confrontation with some kind of powerful animal is the fact that although the group had at least one knife the attacker has used primitive methods (ie beaten them to death). 

Regards
Star man

There is something missing from the above picture.  When apes attack quite often they bite.  Chimpanzees in particular like to bite off the fingers of their foe (charming).  Gorillas also bite.  Yet there is no evidence of any bite injuries on any of the Dyatlov group.  Or at least none reported.  Chimpanzees also have a fondness of mutilating the face of their victims. 

The other issue is the level of aggression.  Chimpanzees form so called war parties in the wild and go on the rampage attacking other chimp groups or hunting monkeys.

However the level of aggression on the pass if normal apes were involved is somewhat odd.

Could the attacker have been more intelligent than a normal ape?  More research is required on this I think.

Regards
Star man

[gypsy]

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.

Just another observation relevant to the above post:

Zina long bruise.  29 cm long or about 12 inches.  Coincidence?

Regards
Star man

I think it's highly plausible that the same 'weapon' inflicted the injuries to the people in the same area. However, it is hard to determine what that was from evidence we have. In case of Tibo, the cap probably prevented soft tissue damage and even on other bodies we cannot see the hemorrhage developed properly due to cold conditions.

Just from observation, I think it would be much easier to inflict that kind of damage by foot (especially the rib fractures) rather than hands. Seems too inefficient to do that with hands as long as easier way exists.

And yet the original Investigation suggests injuries likened to a CAR CRASH. Hardly the work of someones foot then.

That is an example, not a conclusion. Not to mention there is no data such as speed, mechanism of impact or anything.

[Star man]

In the case files it talks about a blanket being placed over the two Yuris?  Any idea how this blanket got there?  Or why it was placed on the Yuris given it would have been useful resource for keeping warm?

Regards

Star man

[gypsy]

One injury was due to a KNEE. The other was due to an old injury made worse by the blow to the head with a FIST. Nothing about Heads being crushed by Human HANDS  !  ?

In other words it is possible under specific circumstances. "Bare hands" narrative is irrelevant as there are simple ways to do it otherwise /knee, elbow, tactical gloves, blunt object etc. which means a (powerful enough) human can cause a skull fracture and no entities of questionable existence are needed to explain the injuries at all.

PS. Fist=bare hands, no difference there

[Star man]

One injury was due to a KNEE. The other was due to an old injury made worse by the blow to the head with a FIST. Nothing about Heads being crushed by Human HANDS  !  ?

In other words it is possible under specific circumstances. "Bare hands" narrative is irrelevant as there are simple ways to do it otherwise /knee, elbow, tactical gloves, blunt object etc. which means a (powerful enough) human can cause a skull fracture and no entities of questionable existence are needed to explain the injuries at all.

PS. Fist=bare hands, no difference there

Hi Gypsy,

I think it is possible to fracture the skull with a fist/punch but from what I have read it is right at the limit of what is possible for a professional heavy weight boxer.  A boxer can generate up to 500kg of force with a punch.  I have calculated the force to cause Thibo's skull fracture which was at least 450kg +\- variance.  This is backed up by other data on the net.  I am less sure about such an injury being caused by a knee.  I haven't done exhaustive research on this.

What is interesting to me though is the distinctive shape of Thibo's skull fracture and the lack of soft tissue damage.  Thibo's skull crush injury is kind of rain drop shaped.  I don't think that this would correspond very well with being hit with a first and irregular knuckles.  But I might be wrong.  Also not sure about the shape a knee would make.  However, what I do know is:

The shape of Thibo's fracture is pretty much "identical" to the shape of the pad of the ball of a thumb.

I made some measurements myself by making a thumb print with the ball of my own thumb and measuring the dimensions.  Now the shape my thumb print made was the same.  The shape is more or less an ellipse.  I measured the major and minor axis of my own print and took the ratio of major/minor axis ratio ( I.e length over width) and got the following results:

My thumb print = 1.25
Thibo's injury = 1.28

Try it yourself.  Will be interested in your result.

The difference is the size of the imprint/injury on Thibo's skull is much bigger.  I scaled it up based on my own hand and got a hand 30cm long and 15ish wide.  Obviously if Thibo's injury was caused by the application of static pressure by squeezing then that would also explain the lack of soft riddle damage.  A high speed impact, especially with a hard blunt object you might expect some soft tissue damage.

I also measured the pad of my own hand at the side under the little finger to see if that was the same shape.  The shape looked very similar but was more elongated, with major/minor axis ratio of 1.75. So not the same shape.

Thibo's head injury - if it happened in isolation might draw one to conclude that it could have been a fall.  And this is true.  But, the other injuries of Lyuda and Semyon are equally as astonishing in terms of the pattern and force.  A hand 30cm long impacting the ribs with a force in excess of 800kg could have caused those injuries.  It takes between 270 and 330 kg of force to break a single rib.  But to create a clean fracture line rough multiple ribs requires a single blow of very high force - beyond that which a human could deliver.  Note a human could break ribs, but the breaks would be irregular.  Have a look at them and think about it.

What is odd is the lack of any bite marks.  If the attack was animalistic in nature then there should be bite marks too - but nothing obvious.

Regards

Star man

[gypsy]

One injury was due to a KNEE. The other was due to an old injury made worse by the blow to the head with a FIST. Nothing about Heads being crushed by Human HANDS  !  ?

In other words it is possible under specific circumstances. "Bare hands" narrative is irrelevant as there are simple ways to do it otherwise /knee, elbow, tactical gloves, blunt object etc. which means a (powerful enough) human can cause a skull fracture and no entities of questionable existence are needed to explain the injuries at all.

PS. Fist=bare hands, no difference there

Hi Gypsy,

I think it is possible to fracture the skull with a fist/punch but from what I have read it is right at the limit of what is possible for a professional heavy weight boxer.  A boxer can generate up to 500kg of force with a punch.  I have calculated the force to cause Thibo's skull fracture which was at least 450kg +\- variance.  This is backed up by other data on the net.  I am less sure about such an injury being caused by a knee.  I haven't done exhaustive research on this.

What is interesting to me though is the distinctive shape of Thibo's skull fracture and the lack of soft tissue damage.  Thibo's skull crush injury is kind of rain drop shaped.  I don't think that this would correspond very well with being hit with a first and irregular knuckles.  But I might be wrong.  Also not sure about the shape a knee would make.  However, what I do know is:

The shape of Thibo's fracture is pretty much "identical" to the shape of the pad of the ball of a thumb.

I made some measurements myself by making a thumb print with the ball of my own thumb and measuring the dimensions.  Now the shape my thumb print made was the same.  The shape is more or less an ellipse.  I measured the major and minor axis of my own print and took the ratio of major/minor axis ratio ( I.e length over width) and got the following results:

My thumb print = 1.25
Thibo's injury = 1.28

Try it yourself.  Will be interested in your result.

The difference is the size of the imprint/injury on Thibo's skull is much bigger.  I scaled it up based on my own hand and got a hand 30cm long and 15ish wide.  Obviously if Thibo's injury was caused by the application of static pressure by squeezing then that would also explain the lack of soft riddle damage.  A high speed impact, especially with a hard blunt object you might expect some soft tissue damage.

I also measured the pad of my own hand at the side under the little finger to see if that was the same shape.  The shape looked very similar but was more elongated, with major/minor axis ratio of 1.75. So not the same shape.

Thibo's head injury - if it happened in isolation might draw one to conclude that it could have been a fall.  And this is true.  But, the other injuries of Lyuda and Semyon are equally as astonishing in terms of the pattern and force.  A hand 30cm long impacting the ribs with a force in excess of 800kg could have caused those injuries.  It takes between 270 and 330 kg of force to break a single rib.  But to create a clean fracture line rough multiple ribs requires a single blow of very high force - beyond that which a human could deliver.  Note a human could break ribs, but the breaks would be irregular.  Have a look at them and think about it.

What is odd is the lack of any bite marks.  If the attack was animalistic in nature then there should be bite marks too - but nothing obvious.

Regards

Star man

Are these measurements for static o dynamic force? In case of the latter, the force should be divided by acceleration which gives us more "human" results.

I agree that the most common cause of the flail chest or multiple rib fracture is a sudden deceleration or impact (such as car crash) or a fall. However, it is possible it is possible to "achieve" the same result with CPR / cardio-pulmonary resuscitation by applying repetitive pressure so the bone "wears out" until it breaks. Most of the cases include older patients of people with thinner bones like females or children or with lower mineral content of the bone tissue. We do not have enough forensic data from the victims so cannot calculate the exact force needed to break specific bones, I can only provide the examples of the documented cases and none of them include other than human involvement or one of the most common causes already mentioned.

As for the shape of the injuries, yes it fits the shape of a rather enlarged areas of the hand you described and I see nothing wrong at all to explore that option (among others). But do you think if there was a fight, no matter if between humans and/or apes, that would be the kind of area that does the most damage upon impact? I mean there are better ways to do do it such as punching, hitting with a knee or elbow, the ape would probably bite. I am not an expert on that, I would be happy to hear an opinion of somebody who knows how the chimpanzees or related species fight.

Am I wrong or Tibo was wearing two hats at the time of death? That would prevent the bruises for some time and spread the force a little so the area of impact would appear larger than it really was. Also the cold would suppress the creation of a bruise. There can be hardly any bruise in case a smooth-surface weapon, such as baseball bat, is used on the area of head covered by winter hat.

https://dergipark.org.tr/download/article-file/733978

Fractures of ribs 3, 4, 5, 6 caused only by CPR which is hardly 800kg of force, doctors and nurses do it every day and they are no bodybuilders or Anthony Joshuas: http://jtd.amegroups.com/article/viewFile/26057/pdf

[Star man]

One injury was due to a KNEE. The other was due to an old injury made worse by the blow to the head with a FIST. Nothing about Heads being crushed by Human HANDS  !  ?

In other words it is possible under specific circumstances. "Bare hands" narrative is irrelevant as there are simple ways to do it otherwise /knee, elbow, tactical gloves, blunt object etc. which means a (powerful enough) human can cause a skull fracture and no entities of questionable existence are needed to explain the injuries at all.

PS. Fist=bare hands, no difference there

Hi Gypsy,

I think it is possible to fracture the skull with a fist/punch but from what I have read it is right at the limit of what is possible for a professional heavy weight boxer.  A boxer can generate up to 500kg of force with a punch.  I have calculated the force to cause Thibo's skull fracture which was at least 450kg +\- variance.  This is backed up by other data on the net.  I am less sure about such an injury being caused by a knee.  I haven't done exhaustive research on this.

What is interesting to me though is the distinctive shape of Thibo's skull fracture and the lack of soft tissue damage.  Thibo's skull crush injury is kind of rain drop shaped.  I don't think that this would correspond very well with being hit with a first and irregular knuckles.  But I might be wrong.  Also not sure about the shape a knee would make.  However, what I do know is:

The shape of Thibo's fracture is pretty much "identical" to the shape of the pad of the ball of a thumb.

I made some measurements myself by making a thumb print with the ball of my own thumb and measuring the dimensions.  Now the shape my thumb print made was the same.  The shape is more or less an ellipse.  I measured the major and minor axis of my own print and took the ratio of major/minor axis ratio ( I.e length over width) and got the following results:

My thumb print = 1.25
Thibo's injury = 1.28

Try it yourself.  Will be interested in your result.

The difference is the size of the imprint/injury on Thibo's skull is much bigger.  I scaled it up based on my own hand and got a hand 30cm long and 15ish wide.  Obviously if Thibo's injury was caused by the application of static pressure by squeezing then that would also explain the lack of soft riddle damage.  A high speed impact, especially with a hard blunt object you might expect some soft tissue damage.

I also measured the pad of my own hand at the side under the little finger to see if that was the same shape.  The shape looked very similar but was more elongated, with major/minor axis ratio of 1.75. So not the same shape.

Thibo's head injury - if it happened in isolation might draw one to conclude that it could have been a fall.  And this is true.  But, the other injuries of Lyuda and Semyon are equally as astonishing in terms of the pattern and force.  A hand 30cm long impacting the ribs with a force in excess of 800kg could have caused those injuries.  It takes between 270 and 330 kg of force to break a single rib.  But to create a clean fracture line rough multiple ribs requires a single blow of very high force - beyond that which a human could deliver.  Note a human could break ribs, but the breaks would be irregular.  Have a look at them and think about it.

What is odd is the lack of any bite marks.  If the attack was animalistic in nature then there should be bite marks too - but nothing obvious.

Regards

Star man

Are these measurements for static o dynamic force? In case of the latter, the force should be divided by acceleration which gives us more "human" results.

I agree that the most common cause of the flail chest or multiple rib fracture is a sudden deceleration or impact (such as car crash) or a fall. However, it is possible it is possible to "achieve" the same result with CPR / cardio-pulmonary resuscitation by applying repetitive pressure so the bone "wears out" until it breaks. Most of the cases include older patients of people with thinner bones like females or children or with lower mineral content of the bone tissue. We do not have enough forensic data from the victims so cannot calculate the exact force needed to break specific bones, I can only provide the examples of the documented cases and none of them include other than human involvement or one of the most common causes already mentioned.

As for the shape of the injuries, yes it fits the shape of a rather enlarged areas of the hand you described and I see nothing wrong at all to explore that option (among others). But do you think if there was a fight, no matter if between humans and/or apes, that would be the kind of area that does the most damage upon impact? I mean there are better ways to do do it such as punching, hitting with a knee or elbow, the ape would probably bite. I am not an expert on that, I would be happy to hear an opinion of somebody who knows how the chimpanzees or related species fight.

Am I wrong or Tibo was wearing two hats at the time of death? That would prevent the bruises for some time and spread the force a little so the area of impact would appear larger than it really was. Also the cold would suppress the creation of a bruise. There can be hardly any bruise in case a smooth-surface weapon, such as baseball bat, is used on the area of head covered by winter hat.

https://dergipark.org.tr/download/article-file/733978

Fractures of ribs 3, 4, 5, 6 caused only by CPR which is hardly 800kg of force, doctors and nurses do it every day and they are no bodybuilders or Anthony Joshuas: http://jtd.amegroups.com/article/viewFile/26057/pdf

The forces are just those required to cause the fractures.  They could be generated by either static or dynamic processes.  High static force is more difficult to generate than high dynamic force. So for instance the 500 kg force produced by a boxers punch is dynamic force.  I doubt a boxer could generate 500 kg of static force.  Hope that makes sense? 

For the flail chest injuries I am not familiar with CPR examples.  Lyuda and Semyon were young and fit though so are there examples of the same injuries for young fit people?  The other question I have on this is can CPR or repative application of force create the double fracture lines?  I'm not an expert on the medical side.

The shape of Thibo's skull fracture is interesting though.  I suppose it could just be a coincidence but there aren't many data points to compare things with.

I think the key question in terms of this discussion is whether what happened was a result of humans or some kind of ape or ape like creature - dare I say the legendary Yeti?  I think the overall context of the events is just as important as the specific clues.

What are the indicators that they were attacked by humans vs some other odd creature in terms of:

The tent
The slope
The cedar
The ravine


Regards

Star man
Regards

[sarapuk]

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.

Just another observation relevant to the above post:

Zina long bruise.  29 cm long or about 12 inches.  Coincidence?

Regards
Star man

I think it's highly plausible that the same 'weapon' inflicted the injuries to the people in the same area. However, it is hard to determine what that was from evidence we have. In case of Tibo, the cap probably prevented soft tissue damage and even on other bodies we cannot see the hemorrhage developed properly due to cold conditions.

Just from observation, I think it would be much easier to inflict that kind of damage by foot (especially the rib fractures) rather than hands. Seems too inefficient to do that with hands as long as easier way exists.

And yet the original Investigation suggests injuries likened to a CAR CRASH. Hardly the work of someones foot then.

That is an example, not a conclusion. Not to mention there is no data such as speed, mechanism of impact or anything.

Well exactly. Its not a conclusion because the Authorities intimate that the Dyatlov Group were overcome by an unknown force. So it that respect its any ones  guess.

[sarapuk]

One injury was due to a KNEE. The other was due to an old injury made worse by the blow to the head with a FIST. Nothing about Heads being crushed by Human HANDS  !  ?

In other words it is possible under specific circumstances. "Bare hands" narrative is irrelevant as there are simple ways to do it otherwise /knee, elbow, tactical gloves, blunt object etc. which means a (powerful enough) human can cause a skull fracture and no entities of questionable existence are needed to explain the injuries at all.

PS. Fist=bare hands, no difference there

The injuries to Dubinina's Chest Ribs are highly unlikely to have been caused by another Human. And its highly unlikely that other injuries were caused by another Human.

[sarapuk]

Re Starman ; I think the key question in terms of this discussion is whether what happened was a result of humans or some kind of ape or ape like creature - dare I say the legendary Yeti?  I think the overall context of the events is just as important as the specific clues.

What are the indicators that they were attacked by humans vs some other odd creature in terms of:

The tent
The slope
The cedar
The ravine


Regards

Star man
Regards

Yes exactly. We have to take all the separate PARTS that make up the one big EVENT. The big EVENT being that the Dyatlov Group died under very mysterious circumstances     by an overwhelming and unknown force.