Arguments against criminal versions

[Зайцев]

Three powerful arguments against killing a group of tourists by a group of other people:
1. The dead have no gunshot or stab wounds.
2. Two out of nine participants suffered major injuries (rib injuries). Such an effort cannot be applied by a person or a group of persons.
Two more participants died from freezing. They were not subjected to physical force causing injury.
3. Professionals from military unit 6602, engaged in the search for fugitive prisoners and local foresters, did not determine that, in addition to the Dyatlov group, there are traces of movement to the pass and from it of some other group .. Traces of the Dyatlov group and their camps were easily found. Traces of movement and parking of the other group were not found.
..
All three arguments together are powerful evidence of the non-involvement of suspected prisoners, poachers, miners, shamans, etc.
===
Три мощных аргумента против убийства группы туристов группой других людей:
1. У погибших нет огнестрельных и колото-ножевых ранений.
2. Два участника из девяти получили травмы большой силы (травмы рёбер). Подобное усилие не может применить человек или группа лиц.
Ещё два участника погибли от замерзания. К ним не применялась физическая сила с нанесением травм.
3. Профессионалы из в/ч 6602, занимающиеся поисками беглых заключённых и местные лесники не определили что, кроме группы Дятлова, есть следы передвижения к перевалу и от него какой-то другой группы.. Следы группы Дятлова и их стоянки легко нашли. Следов передвижения и стоянки другой группы не нашли.
..
Все три аргумента в совокупности являются мощным свидетельством о непричастности подозреваемых зэков, браконьеров, старателей, шаманов и т.д.

[GlennM]

Good analysis.

[Charles]

nothing here

[Зайцев]

1. The dead have no gunshot or stab wounds.

NKVD and GULAG guards killed thousands of people by many different ways : hunger, freeze to death, drowning... Zeks had even more numerous ways of killing each others.

2. Two out of nine participants suffered major injuries (rib injuries). Such an effort cannot be applied by a person or a group of persons.

First, these rib injuries can be caused during fight as it is documented in medical studies about flail chest, this effort can be applied by a person. Second, it was so easy to break the ribs that zeks had a nickname for the practice: "razbit faneru", that is to say "to crack the plywood".

Two more participants died from freezing. They were not subjected to physical force causing injury.

Many victims of the NKVD and GULAG guards died from freezing and as the consequence of an intention to kill.

3. Professionals from military unit 6602, engaged in the search for fugitive prisoners and local foresters, did not determine that, in addition to the Dyatlov group, there are traces of movement to the pass and from it of some other group .. Traces of the Dyatlov group and their camps were easily found. Traces of movement and parking of the other group were not found..

"Professionals" from military unit 6602 were involved in crime against humanity, as were all the employees of the GULAG camps. From 1937 to 1960, during the activity of Ivdellag, they caused the death of 30,000 inmates. What they could determine or not is absolutely irrelevant.

And only a few traces of the hikers were found. No traces were found around the tent for example, no traces at the ravine, no traces at the cedar. And it is documented that the light tracks of wide local skis coated with fur did not last very long.

All three arguments together are powerful evidence of the non-involvement of suspected prisoners, poachers, miners, shamans, etc.

Weak arguments, nothing "powerful"... sorry.

---

Невозможно так сломать рёбра другим человеком. Был удар большой силы, сопоставимый с авто аварией. Читайте Возрожденного. Изучайте уголовное дело
И про следы вы тоже, видимо, не в курсе. Лыжный след группы Дятлова хорошо сохранился в лесной зоне от Лозьвы до верховья Ауспии. Никаких других следов, которые вели к месту трагедии, в лесной зоне обнаружено не было. Если бы они были, то поисковики бы их заметили
You can't break other people's ribs like that. There was a blow of great force, comparable to a car accident. Read Renaissance. Study criminal law.
And you probably don't know about the traces either. The ski track of the Dyatlov group is well preserved in the forest zone from Lozva to the upper Auspiya. No other traces that would lead to the place of the tragedy were found in the forest zone. If they were, then the search engines would notice them.

[Charles]

nothing here

[Зайцев]

Why do you suddenly stop to write in English? Please use the lingua franca of this forum, which is English.

I know English badly. The translator translates very incorrectly
Английский язык знаю плохо. Переводчик переводит очень не корректно

[Зайцев]

Why do you suddenly stop to write in English? Please use the lingua franca of this forum, which is English.

You've read too much about the Gulag. All the atrocities were under Stalin. Under Nikita Khrushchev, mass liberations and review of about 4 million political cases are carried out. The so-called "thaw" is coming. And since 1957, the beginning of the disbandment of the Gulag (officially, the Directorate was abolished by order of the USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs No. 020 of January 25, 1960). A number of camps are liquidated.
No way the Soviet soldiers of the military unit 6602 could not kill the Soviet students-Komsomol
Вы про ГУЛАГ начитались чрезмерно. Все зверства были при Сталине. При Никите Хрущеве проводятся массовые освобождения и пересмотр около 4 млн. политических дел. Наступает так называемая «оттепель». А с 1957 году начало расформирования ГУЛАГа (официально Управление упразднено приказом МВД СССР № 020 от 25 января 1960 г.). Ряд лагерей ликвидируется.
Никак советские солдаты военной части 6602 не могли убить советских студентов-комсомольцев

[Teddy]

Why do you suddenly stop to write in English? Please use the lingua franca of this forum, which is English.

Зайцев, you are welcome to this forum. Don't mind Charles.

[Зайцев]

Why do you suddenly stop to write in English? Please use the lingua franca of this forum, which is English.

Зайцев, you are welcome to this forum. Don't mind Charles.

Thank you! Very nice to meet you.
Charles does not know the history of the USSR well. Or I read Anna Russkikh's books, how Kirilenko poisoned Soviet students with dogs. We have such a crazy old writer who writes fantasies from her head.
Спасибо! Очень приятно познакомиться.
Чарльз плохо знает историю СССР. Или книжек Анны Русских начитался, как Кириленко травил собаками советских студентов. Есть у нас такая сумасшедшая старушка-писательница, которая пишет фантазии из своей головы.

[Teddy]

Dyatlov Pass incident is a Russian or rather Soviet case. History, geography, psychology, case files, photos, everything is Russian. We should be grateful when Russians bring us insights, and besides, Зайцев is trying to translate. This is how I feel when I have to write on Russian forums.
And yes please keep the Russian original because some of us do read Russian and the auto translation sometimes is awful.

BTW I have a very deep respect to Мая Пискарева. She was friends with Игорь Павлов. They are now together.

[Ziljoe]

Hi Зайцев

It is good to hear Russian knowledge.

[GlennM]

It is equally good to hear common sense and clear reasoning. Appreciated.

[Charles]

nothing here

[Зайцев]

You can't break other people's ribs like that. There was a blow of great force, comparable to a car accident.

So saying "You can't break other people's ribs like that" is just nonsense.

You write about a fracture of 1-2 ribs. Injuries to a large number of ribs in one line cannot be caused by a person. Here you need a lot of force, comparable to hitting a car or a fallen tree. My opinion, as an option, is that these injuries were received on the third ridge of stones, where a large icing forms on the slope of Halatchakhl. On this ice there is evidence of search engines
--
Это вы пишите о переломе 1-2 рёбер. Травмы большого количества рёбер в одну линию не сможет нанести человек. Тут нужна большая сила, сопоставимая с наездом автомобиля или упавшее дерево. Моё мнение, как вариант, что эти травмы получены на третьей гряде камней, где на склоне Халатчахля образуется большая наледь. По этой наледи есть свидетельства поисковиков

[Charles]

nothing here

[Teddy]

You can't break other people's ribs like that. There was a blow of great force, comparable to a car accident. Read Vozrozhdenniy

Totally agree with Зайцев.

[Charles]

nothing here

[Teddy]

you should write to the doctors who made these studies and alert them that they were wrong... ;-)

Charles, this is not a good language.

The studies are welcome. Cite them and move on.
A rib cage can break in many ways. Jumping on top or hammering will not cause the same fracture lines.
I still agree with Возрожденный and Зайцев.

[Почемучка]

Русские идут... И они - пришли уже...

Чарльз, ну предположим, представители войск охраны мест заключения: могли сильно избивать беглых заключенных при поимке. Но туристы никогда и нигде - не воспринимались такою лагерной службой как беглые заключенные. При поимке беглых - войска имеют четкие ориентировки как выглядят уголовники и сколько их. Потому что у них на руках - данные личных дел на каждого беглого заключенного. Это неизменная составляющая лагерей заключения. Причем везде, включая и Францию.

Так зачем Вы все складываете в одну историю?

The Russians are coming... And they have already arrived...

Charles, well, let's say, representatives of the guards of places of detention: they could beat fugitive prisoners severely when they were caught. But tourists have never and nowhere been perceived by such a camp service as runaway prisoners. When capturing the fugitives, the troops have clear orientations on how the criminals look and how many of them. Because they have in their hands - the data of personal files for each escaped prisoner. This is an invariable component of the detention camps. And everywhere, including France.

So why are you putting everything in one story?

П.С. Немного пугает производимый перевод моего русского текста. Не представляю - что видят другие читатели. Поэтому вот оригинал

[Charles]

nothing here

[Почемучка]

The Russians are coming... And they have already arrived...

What do you mean?

Я говорю о том, чтобы несерьезно считать себя более осведомленным не будучи россиянином. И да, это в некотором роде - шутка, отсылка к бытующим вне России мифам - о России


I'm talking about not seriously considering yourself more knowledgeable without being a Russian.
And yes, this is in some way - a joke, a reference to the myths existing outside of Russia - about Russia.

Charles, well, let's say, representatives of the guards of places of detention: they could beat fugitive prisoners severely when they were caught. But tourists have never and nowhere been perceived by such a camp service as runaway prisoners. When capturing the fugitives, the troops have clear orientations on how the criminals look and how many of them. Because they have in their hands - the data of personal files for each escaped prisoner. This is an invariable component of the detention camps. And everywhere, including France.?

"Подсчитано, что за неполных 14 лет существования Ивдельлага там погибло около 30 000 человек."

"It is estimated that in the 14 years of Ivdellag's existence, about 30,000 people died there."

https://www.oblgazeta.ru/society/19102/

I don't say the tourists were mistaken as runaway prisoners. I say that Gulag guards killed many people and didn't care about killing people.

Вы до сих пор не осознали разницу между туристами и уголовниками? Вы приводите статистику на какой состав населения? Видимо на тот, что именно имел сроки заключения?

Туристы/альпинисты в России сидели по Гулагам, но они получили сроки заключения при Ежове и т.п.
В России нет обычая - туристов принимать за беглых уголовников. Ибо - они студенты учебных заведений, сотрудники предприятий и организаций.

Have you still not realized the difference between tourists and criminals? What statistics are you citing for the composition of the population? Apparently on the one that exactly had terms of imprisonment?

Tourists/climbers in Russia were imprisoned in the Gulags, but they received terms of imprisonment under Yezhov, etc.
In Russia, there is no custom - to take tourists for fugitive criminals. For - they are students of educational institutions, employees of enterprises and organizations.

[Charles]

nothing here

[Зайцев]

I don't say the tourists were mistaken as runaway prisoners. I say that Gulag guards killed many people and didn't care about killing people.

Then why did they kill it?
--
Тогда почему убили то ?

[Почемучка]

What myths? Where? I am very interested in myths.

Думаю что не раскрою никакой тайны, если уточню - что есть две категории мифов. Одни куются вне России, а другие - в России.
И те и другие - хранятся как правило по библиотекам. Когда Вы последний раз там были?

I think that I will not reveal any secret if I clarify that there are two categories of myths. Some are forged outside of Russia, while others are forged in Russia.
Both those and others - are stored as a rule on libraries. When was the last time you were there?

Why are you talking about something that does not exist??? I don't say and I don't think that the tourists were mistaken as runaway prisoners. Can you read it and process it?

Тогда с какой мотивации Вы начинаете рассказывать о Гулаге  в отношении гибели группы Дятлова? Вы только что сами вычеркнули охранников Гулага как возможных создателей травм туристам или сидите посередине двух стульев/мнений?

Then with what motivation do you start talking about the Gulag in relation to the death of the Dyatlov group? Have you just ruled out the Gulag guards yourself as possible injury makers to tourists, or are you sitting in the middle of two chairs/opinions?

[Олег Таймень]

О, сибирская диаспора в полном составе. Зимнее нашествие 

[Зайцев]

О, сибирская диаспора в полном составе. Зимнее нашествие 

Присоединяйся! Пора уже очистить народность манси от клеветы и больных фантазий дятловедов.

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

I think that I will not reveal any secret if I clarify that there are two categories of myths. Some are forged outside of Russia, while others are forged in Russia.

It is a bit ethnocentric, don't you think?

Then with what motivation do you start talking about the Gulag in relation to the death of the Dyatlov group?

A criminal case was opened by prosecutor Tempalov for the violent death of 9 people in a region where were living many people who deserved to be trialed for crime against humanity: Ivdellag guards and executioners of the 1937-1938 shootings.

Have you just ruled out the Gulag guards yourself as possible injury makers to tourists, or are you sitting in the middle of two chairs/opinions?

I think Ivdellag guards are possibly the best candidates for the position.

Read this Charles ,

https://helpfulprofessor.com/examples-of-ethnocentrism/

Now go back to your own posts and read from the beginning. X

[GlennM]

Another grand birdwalk, I think! Categories of myths? Really?

My introduction to flail chest was as an orderly in emergency room. People who were in car crashes and hit the steering wheel could suffer a flail chest. Previously, when involved in a crash of this sort, and before collapsible steering wheels were the norm, the steering wheel column became a spear. Thank goodness we have safer cars...and wear your seat belt to avoid a flail chest.

[Charles]

nothing here