Bartolomey

[sarapuk]

This force can be unknown and unknowable. The force can be unknown but knowable. The forum exists because as reasonable people,me believe the unknown will be made known.

It that regard the unknown and unknowable could be grouped into the categories of fantasy or science fiction. In fantasy, elves, fairies,demons and spirits would be associated with the disaster. These constructs are not real and never were. We can rule out boogie man type explanations Any explanation of a fantastic nature can be dismissed.

Science fiction, on the other hand are plausible causes except the discovery of them, then technology to produce them and the laws that govern them are yet to be realized. This encompasses cryptid life forms terrestrial and otherwise. It includes wave and beam technologies and mechanisms which were not there in '59.

Sounds a bit contradictory. You are ruling out explanations of a fantastic nature and then say science fiction is plausible !?

[sarapuk]

correct translation is "elemental force" (стихийная сила) not "natural force" (природная сила, естественная сила)

Let's face it, people can make mistakes or just say something that may mean something slightly different than what they intended to convey. We have a force that caused the demise of the Dyatlov Group. We don't know what that force was. We don't need to keep making mountains out of mole hills, do we?

[sarapuk]

Weather could not have forced them to abandon the tent, because the Dyatlov Pass tragedy began to be written even before the expedition. Nor could weather remove the material evidence of a planned crime. Neither the diaries nor Zolotaryov’s camera disappeared.

Weather may have played a part, but not necessarily the part or parts that killed the entire Dyatlov Group. It still seems strange to me that they chose to pitch a tent on that very exposed mountain slope. Exposed to strong winds, which certainly force temperatures down considerably. The slope wasn't steep, so it was not a dangerous place as far as potential snow slides were concerned. Just very exposed to wind. If anyone has been out in exposed locations in temperatures well below freezing, they will know just how brutal the wind factor can be.

[sarapuk]

When forum members write that they reject mystical theories, they themselves don't realize they're putting forward mystical theories.
The Dyatlov group mysteriously perishes from wind and snow. A mystical, imaginary avalanche descends on the tourists' tent. Then they mystically freeze to death.

All of this is constructed in the mind, as if this is how it should be. Do you have a more rational explanation?

You have a point.

I believe that nothing should be ruled out in this Dyatlov Mystery. It was an unusual event or events that led to the demise of the Dyatlov Group.

[GlennM]

For Sarapuk. To clarify my comment, consider a comparison between a fairy tale like Peter Pan and Science Fiction  20000 Leagues. Fairies like Tinkerbelle are not real, never were and never will be. Please do not go simple on me .

 In 20000 leagues, the Nautilus was not real, but even at the time  with certain future developments in propulsion and metallurgy, it could be developed into a real machine. Today, of course, we have submarines , but no Tinkerbelles.

I think you already knew this but were argumentative just to keep a bit of energy going in the forum.

If you want something to ponder, then rationalize which came first, the fire at the cedar or the digging at the ravine.

[Ziljoe]

When forum members write that they reject mystical theories, they themselves don't realize they're putting forward mystical theories.
The Dyatlov group mysteriously perishes from wind and snow. A mystical, imaginary avalanche descends on the tourists' tent. Then they mystically freeze to death.

All of this is constructed in the mind, as if this is how it should be. Do you have a more rational explanation?

You have a point.

I believe that nothing should be ruled out in this Dyatlov Mystery. It was an unusual event or events that led to the demise of the Dyatlov Group.

think we need to clear up the definitions here. You are mixing up 'mystical' with 'mysterious' or 'unproven.'The word mystical comes from the Greek mystikos, meaning a secret spiritual or divine power. Wind, cold weather, and avalanches are physical, natural phenomena. Even if you think the avalanche theory is imaginary, that makes it a disputed hypothesis—not a mystical theory. There is nothing spiritual about freezing to death.

[amashilu]

When forum members write that they reject mystical theories, they themselves don't realize they're putting forward mystical theories.
The Dyatlov group mysteriously perishes from wind and snow. A mystical, imaginary avalanche descends on the tourists' tent. Then they mystically freeze to death.

All of this is constructed in the mind, as if this is how it should be. Do you have a more rational explanation?

You have a point.

I believe that nothing should be ruled out in this Dyatlov Mystery. It was an unusual event or events that led to the demise of the Dyatlov Group.

think we need to clear up the definitions here. You are mixing up 'mystical' with 'mysterious' or 'unproven.'The word mystical comes from the Greek mystikos, meaning a secret spiritual or divine power. Wind, cold weather, and avalanches are physical, natural phenomena. Even if you think the avalanche theory is imaginary, that makes it a disputed hypothesis—not a mystical theory. There is nothing spiritual about freezing to death.

I read Axelrod's comment to mean that an avalanche-freezing theory is so impossible, it is actually out of the realm of even the hypothetical, and we should look for something more realistic.

[Ziljoe]

I read Axelrod's comment to mean that an avalanche-freezing theory is so impossible, it is actually out of the realm of even the hypothetical, and we should look for something more realistic.

An avalanche or snow slide is not impossible. But let's park that thought for a minute . Freezing to death is highly possible, it's what's written in the autopsy. A snow slip , slide , wind driven build up of snow is the most probable and I doubt scientists would say impossible, hence why they look at , snow , wind , ultra sound as a cause.

So I'm interested to read what is more realistic from axelrod without mystical theories or sarapuk with UFOs , yetis and cattle mutilations. 

So pleased define your and axelrods definition of realistic .

[Senior Maldonado]

I'm interested to read what is more realistic

Then you are welcome to listen to Petr Bartolomey. He keeps saying that the slope, where Dyatlov pitched his tent on Feb 1st, had a strong thermal impact. Area of about 500 x 500 meters became icy, the groups' footprints were fixed into ice and had been staying intact for about 2 months.

[Ziljoe]

I'm interested to read what is more realistic

Then you are welcome to listen to Petr Bartolomey. He keeps saying that the slope, where Dyatlov pitched his tent on Feb 1st, had a strong thermal impact. Area of about 500 x 500 meters became icy, the groups' footprints were fixed into ice and had been staying intact for about 2 months.

Thank you. Certainly a realistic hypothesis
 
There is speculation by Petr Bartolomey that it was caused by fuel etc but there are no remains or debris.

That to me is a problem as how any fuel get distributed in the air or on the slope. My understanding is that the r 12 rocket is one stage plus its war head. The launch sites are specific and remote. The distance means the fuel would be spent , the fuel stage is traveling at 8000 mph , as it hits the earns atmosphere again it basically goes through a very violent process and ultimately collapses . The only parts that would hit the ground are heavy engine parts and piping, they would be scattered over the area with deep impact holes.

This is my understanding at least. It's the altitude , the speed and distance that  prohibits the possibility. Fuel can't get anywhere near the slope or the atmosphere. It's either used up on the launch where the r12  only travels 200km horizontaly until it hits the upper atmosphere. If there was any residual fuel and a leak in the upper atmosphere it would just get lost there and it would be a small amount. If it fell back to earth at 8000 mph , the fuel would get burnt up instantly with the speeds involved. ?

[GlennM]

Then too, if it was the rocket's chemicals I liquid or vaporous form, it would coat or infiltrate the tent. Given how long the tent existed after the February event, surely an odor, stain or holes would indicate contamination. Additionally, though much has been made of radioactive contaminated clothes, absolutely nothing ever pointed to the tent being exposed to beta contamination. We can surmise that if the tent was not contaminated through these vectors and given that the tent had the widest surface area of any item on the hike, it is a certainty that chemical or radiological contamination did not cause the evacuation.

We understand that contamination can be washed from fabric. This example was used in determining the effect of rinsing radioactive clothes. The operant word is rinsing, which implies running water.  We know that not to be the case on 1079. Too, those familiar with chemistry understand the extreme corrosive news of nitric acid. Anyone familiar with blood and food stains, can appreciate that once infiltrated in canvas, it will linger.

As a final pile on, I discount the argument that the tent was struck by a tree and conspirators moved it to 1079. It is impossible for a tree to crush a tent and leave no trace. I find it impossible to believe hikers could be crushed in the tent under a fallen tree and not blood stain the tent interior. I can easily believe they could be crushed under snow and not bleed.

[Senior Maldonado]

I discount the argument that the tent was struck by a tree and conspirators moved it to 1079. It is impossible for a tree to crush a tent and leave no trace. I find it impossible to believe hikers could be crushed in the tent under a fallen tree and not blood stain the tent interior.

Completely true. Trees have nothing to do with DPI. Of course, we should keep in mind the Cedar tree, which the hikers used as a source of dry branches for the fire. The key point is that the tent was pitched on the slope by the group. It had never been moved, and it was discovered on its original place by two UPI students on Feb 26th.

That to me is a problem as how any fuel get distributed in the air or on the slope. My understanding is that the r 12 rocket is one stage plus its war head. The launch sites are specific and remote. The distance means the fuel would be spent , the fuel stage is traveling at 8000 mph , as it hits the earns atmosphere again it basically goes through a very violent process and ultimately collapses . The only parts that would hit the ground are heavy engine parts and piping, they would be scattered over the area with deep impact holes.

What you say is correct, one-stage rocket would have reached the Pass with nearly empty tanks. That means R-12 and other one-stage rockets can be safely excluded. The focus should be on multi-stage rockets, where the last stage is expected to start its engine high in atmosphere and far from the launching pad. Up to that point the last stage keeps its tanks full. Also, at that point the previous stage separates and falls on the ground. That means that zones of stages separation should be set over remote and low populated areas, and North Urals is a good candidate.

Most probably, we face a non-public Moon mission, where they made an attempt to send to the Moon a probe with primitive nuclear engine or nuclear electricity generator. The Jan 2nd Moon mission was a partial success, and to reach full success in a month, at the time of Communist Party congress, was quite obvious goal.