Back to the Rav4

[RidgeWatcher]

Hello Nigel,
I have seen fractured ribs without bruising but out in the field, I used to swim on a triathlon team, get tidied up and then volunteer in the med-tents. I saw a lot of broken bones without any bruising but that doesn't mean the capillary breakage or free blood cells didn't settle near the dermal or epidermal skin layers later.

Yuri's grey foam, results of pulmonary edema, were also indicative of a certain type of torture known at the time. Pulmonary edema, when seen in Severe Hypothermia cases is usually suggestive of faults of the rewarming process. That goes back to the saying I heard in Alaska a lot. You don't die of Hypothermia unless you are warm and dead.

Hello Jean,

 I want to thank you for the mathematics. It looks like you are really trying to scientifically formulate the movements and possibility of a wooden bludgeon attack, and succeeding. It definitely looks like a possibility, although I don't understand, completely the physics of a flail chest, it does look possible. If Semyon and Dubinina were already down in the den and someone from above jumped on them, somehow, without damaging too much surface soft tissue, what do you think of that? If it was wooden weapons that caused the multitude of injuries then I wonder what kind of a human would go through all that just to satisfy their urges? A hunter, perhaps.

[Star man]

............
I have undertaken a relatively simple analysis of Lyuda and Semyon being hit with blunt objects.  What I can say is that if they were it was not by a human.  To put it blunty ( pun intended) , the force required to cause those injuries is equivalent to them having fallen from about 3 to 4 meters.  To create similar injuries with a blunt object would mean that the blunt object would need to impart a similar amount of force/energy by hand.  Now imagine the amount of strength it would require to knock a person 3 to 4 metres into the air with a blunt instrument?...............

I had just imagined the fall of a person weighing 80 kg.

80 kg falling from 3 m ---> 2.4 kilojoules
80 kg falling from 4 m ---> 3.2 kilojoules

and I had considered many blows to one chest from two blunt objects
which corresponds to a total energy of ---> 8 kilojoules

But indeed my argument by energy is worthless ( wrong ) because the bones of a living mammal are elastic and the brittleness by fatigue of the bone material is negligible. See for example :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material)

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

 It was WAB who explained that in the case of blows and shocks it is the instantaneous force that plays the important role and not the energy involved.
See..:
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=655.msg9956#msg9956

WAB  : July 10, 2020, 02:30:40 ----> Reply #58

 "The impact itself is very complex phenomenon... "
 "All processes are subject to the law of movement impulse conservation, which is expressed by the formula  ..."

M*(V1 - V2) = F*(t1 - t2)

   M  : it is the mass that moves,
   V1 : it is initial speed (before impact),
   V2 : it is final speed (after impact),
   F   : it is force value, during time (t1 - t2),
   t1  : it is the starting point of impact time,
   t2  : it is the final point of impact time.

Thus with the modeling of a blunt object blow by the impact of sphere (Ø=23 cm, made of birch wood) we obtain,
( M =4 kg || V1=14 m/s || V2=0 || t1-t2=0.01 seconds ) :

 

F= 5600 Newton or approximately 560 kilogram of force

In both cases the bodies of Dubinina and Zolotariov were supposed already lying on hard ground when the blows was applied.

Here is an instructive didactic example with very hard glass or steel - then  : t1-t2 =0.1 milliseconds,
( M=1 kg || V1=1 m/s || V2=0 || t1-t2=0.1 ms=0.0001 seconds ) :

F= 10000 Newton = approximately 1000 kilogram of force

Which explains why you can drive down nails in with a hammer...

However, the theoretical approach by the law of movement impulse conservation does not allow us to reach certain conclusions because the values of "t1-t2" are generally unknown.

To evaluate the value of "t1-t2" in a particular case, one possibility would be to use ultra-fast cinematography. 

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

 • Conclusion - When it comes to estimating the effects of blows and shocks the theoretical considerations are disappointing. It is impossible to dispense with the observations and tests carried out in the real physical world

Personally I have no experience in combat sports but I read on the website of a French systema teacher :
(There are certainly other websites in English language on which you can read equivalent informations)

" Typical of percussion combat sports. The ribs break easily during a big hit under which one puts oneself in opposition. However, they also break easily on a small hit with a good angle. Be careful on some floor exercises, when the chest is stretched with little mobility and a big weight falls on it, the risk of breaking is also important.
             Recommendations:
Unfortunately, there is not much to do apart from rest and painkillers, a broken rib can be very painful with each breath... Count 3 to 6 weeks for the healing (more than 6 than 3 by the way...)."

 • Finally I think that Eduard Tumanov is not mistaken: the blunt objects can explain the totality of the injuries reported on the corpses of the 9 hikers.

It looks to me that the chest injuries were accomplished via 1 and possibly 2 blows for Lyuda.  To achieve them with a club like weapon would probably require the victim to be on the floor as the angle of impact down the ribs must have been shallow.  But a club is long and rigid, and if someone was standing over the victim the end of the club would hit them at a greater angle causing a more localised injury.  Now several people lifting a large boulder a d dropping it on them seems more consistent with the type of injury.

Regards

Star man

[Tony]

Back at the ravine, for me, it is difficult to imagine Semyon's and Dubinina's flail chest being caused by falling 12 feet, especially onto brush below. a fractured rib or two, perhaps much harder to cause a flail chest.

If they both fell onto large rocks from 12 feet would it cause those types of fractured ribs?

[Georgi]

Sorry about the previous fragmented response. Not sure what happened there.

I think there is some confusion as to the events with the fall - I'll try and clarify:

After Yuri D. and Yuri K. passed at the cedar, the remaining seven took clothing, left the fire and cedar, and traveled deeper into the forest. In complete dark, without the moon or flashlight, they were probably in two groups walking very close or holding on to each other. By this point they were all in the beginning or mid stages of hypothermia and reaction time would have been limited. Stumbling onto the ravine, it's possible that they heard water, but they would not have been able to see the ravine. There are a hundred different scenarios for how they could have fallen but I believe they stumbled in the deep snow or fell through snow (snow bridge) and, holding onto each other, 3 of them fell onto a number of large rocks (imaging falling down a flight of stairs on to rocks in the dark). They didn't fall onto a single rock and the rocks weren't in the "right place" - it was just a bunch of rocks that lined the entire bed of the ravine. It would have happened quickly and with hypothermia setting in, they probably didn't realize what had happened and were unable to block the fall or protect themselves. Sasha fell and landed on his chest breaking his ribs and cutting the top of his head. Thibeux-Brignolle landed on his head knocking him unconscious. Lyuda landed breaking her ribs and received bruising on her quadricep and damage to her face. All of these injuries could occur with an uninterrupted fall onto large rocks. A 170 lb person falling 6 feet would generate around 4,800 newtons of force which would be more than enough to break ribs. This is all arm-chair science but we've already concluded that the medical examiner stated a fall as a possibility.

After they fell, the remaining 3 (or four) made their way into the ravine and, hoping to save their friends and themselves, began to build the den into a snow drift on the banks of the ravine, returning to the cedar to retrieve more clothing and cut fir branches for the bed. The 3 that fell remained on the rocks where they were found months later. The building of the den would have been done in absolute darkness and it probably took a substantial amount of effort. Running out of options, the remaining three (Igor, Zina, and Rustem) abandoned the ravine and attempted a return to the tent. Over the next 3 weeks its possible that the water level in the ravine decreased and froze allowing snow to accumulate and cover the rocks and hikers. As far as I know there is no mention of a search in the area of the ravine during the initial stages of the investigation.

The outlier is Kolevatov. I don't know what his circumstances would have been. It's possible that after the fire the 3 attempted a return to the tent and the other four walked into the forest with all but Kolevatov falling into the ravine. Kolevatov alone constructed the den and the bed and then gave up. But I don't see him being able to construct the bed and den alone. It's also possible that he fell as well which would account for his neck injury.

There are also injuries to Sasha's scapula that were found later that are hard to account for.

Yes, it's unusual that 3 (or 4) people would all fall at the same time and incur such extreme injuries but it is the most likely scenario. Even if they were forced from the tent by a third party and left to fend for themselves I think it is still a more likely scenario for the injuries. Finding a small group of people in a ravine in complete darkness in a large, forested area with only a flashlight in -15 F weather and in snow a mile from the tent would have been near impossible at best.

If you happened upon someone lying on top of rocks at the bottom of a small ravine with injuries what would be the mostly likely cause of injury?

1) The first problem from my point of view is that Zolotaryov and Dubinina suffered injuries from opposite directions, meaning their head injuries while their chest injuries appear to be from the front for Dubinina and side for Zolotaryov. This leads me to believe that it would have to be some very unique set of circumstances to have both of them to suffer injuries from opposing forces(one from the back and the other Front/Side).

2) Kolevatov on the other hand also suffered injuries inconsistent with one fall, again one injury was back of the head behind the ear while the other was a broken neck.

3) They had to have had a really good reason to leave the fire to go out without at least using all of their firewood, there were enough people who were sufficiently well dressed to be able to go and gather more wood to increase the size of the fire. There had to be compelling reasons to force them to abandon their tent and then abandon their fire while they still had firewood and a means to gather more. A big enough fire might have bought them just enough time to survive to daylight and find their way back to the tent, or at least the best dressed of the hikers can go and get clothes and shoes for the rest.

4) By all accounts Slobodin was the first to die, and if the ice under his body was anything to go by he died before he suffered through the cold for prolonged time before collapsing.

[Georgi]

I'm just asking, could being buried in snow for 3 months change the color of bruises so that they no longer look like bruises?

The four bodies carry several bruises. But no bruise that explains the fractures.

So the falling theory seems almost impossible.

• Bruising occurs but doesn't exist for the fractures.
• No broken limbs.
• From memory two corpses demonstrate unusual throat mobility (Alex and Lyudmila).
• I'm no expert but my understanding is that you would need a fall of six stories/60 feet.
• In late Feb Tempalov estimated the snow depth to be 2-6m.
• They were found under 3.5m.

The evidence points to dying under the snow from crushing. Or the evidence is a fabrication and it was murder. Falling is as probable as aliens.

If they were crushed by the  show they would have suffered significantly more injuries than they did suffer. Injuries to arms, legs etc... and all 4 would have somewhat similar injuries.

[Georgi]

My point was that if enough snow had fallen on them to cause these injuries, they would've been trapped under the snow and died of asphyxiation.

And the list of injuries would have been more uniform and there would have been significantly more injuries.

[Georgi]

There is little to no doubt that if the skateboarder video that I had previously posted had landed on a rock that he would have had massive rib fractures. The fact that he landed on his arm and flat probably saved him from more severe injury.

If you are falling on A rock it might cause the injuries and nothing else, if you are falling on a lot of rocks then there should be injuries to other parts of the body. Zolotaryov was injured from the side, which means the serious arm injuries that should be there are not there. All 4 received similar injuries to the back of their heads, 2 of the people suffered serious injuries to their ribs(one from the front and one from the side) while the other two had a deformed/broken neck and a significantly more powerful hit to the head than the others. And all this without a single injury to the arms or legs to indicate a reaction?

[Nigel Evans]

Hello Nigel,
I have seen fractured ribs without bruising but out in the field, I used to swim on a triathlon team, get tidied up and then volunteer in the med-tents. I saw a lot of broken bones without any bruising but that doesn't mean the capillary breakage or free blood cells didn't settle near the dermal or epidermal skin layers later.
I can understand that ribs can fracture with no bruising (or delayed) but Nicolai's skull? How can the scalp transfer this impact into the skull and not result in large scale capillary breakage immediately?  Could the temperature of the skin be relevant?

I'd be interested in your opinion of my "crushed in the den theory" if you haven't seen it. - https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=398.120Imo crushed in the den answers the key question - why no limb fractures?

[Nigel Evans]

If they were crushed by the  show they would have suffered significantly more injuries than they did suffer. Injuries to arms, legs etc... and all 4 would have somewhat similar injuries.

Not if the force was localised - https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=398.120

[Frankie]

Back at the ravine, for me, it is difficult to imagine Semyon's and Dubinina's flail chest being caused by falling 12 feet, especially onto brush below. a fractured rib or two, perhaps much harder to cause a flail chest.

If they both fell onto large rocks from 12 feet would it cause those types of fractured ribs?

That is what I am attempting to either prove or disprove. My thoughts are that those rib fractures are unique enough that there must be medical data about them somewhere. There must be information about such linear fractures in 3 places (or even in 1 or 2) and what caused them so we can compare Dubinina’s injuries to someone else’s with a known cause. Still researching...

[lucid-nonsense]

If they fell down a steep slope and bounced off several trees on the way down, that could explain the localized injuries that seem to come from multiple directions.

[Star man]

Falling down a steep slope could explain the various superficial injuries such the bruise on Lyuda's thigh, her crushed nose cartilage, the cut behind Semyon ear etc.  It could also provide an impact powerful enough to cause the chest injuries.  What I think needs more detailed consideration is how and why did both Lyuda and Semyon have such similar impacts/damage to their chests with such similar amounts of force applied.

The superficial injuries could also be explain by being dragged around violently (same as following down a slope)  and receiving very large powerful blows from an ape/creature.  Easier to explain the similarity in the chest injuries and does not require an explanation as to why both Lyuda and Semyon both fell down a slope.  A large apes hand is big, 30cm ish long.  Thibo's depressed fracture matches the shape of the ball of the thumb of 30 cm hand.  Looks like his skull could have been crushed against the ground by a powerful hand.  Very strange but I don't think you should rule this out either.

Regards

Star man

[Nigel Evans]

Falling down a steep slope could explain the various superficial injuries such the bruise on Lyuda's thigh, her crushed nose cartilage, the cut behind Semyon ear etc.  It could also provide an impact powerful enough to cause the chest injuries.  What I think needs more detailed consideration is how and why did both Lyuda and Semyon have such similar impacts/damage to their chests with such similar amounts of force applied.

The superficial injuries could also be explain by being dragged around violently (same as following down a slope)  and receiving very large powerful blows from an ape/creature.  Easier to explain the similarity in the chest injuries and does not require an explanation as to why both Lyuda and Semyon both fell down a slope.  A large apes hand is big, 30cm ish long.  Thibo's depressed fracture matches the shape of the ball of the thumb of 30 cm hand.  Looks like his skull could have been crushed against the ground by a powerful hand.  Very strange but I don't think you should rule this out either.

Regards

Star man

No i wouldn't rule out an attack by a menk whilst they were in the den - https://siberiantimes.com/other/others/news/vladimir-putin-sights-a-yeti-family-in-remote-siberian-mountains/.
The fire didn't burn out which supports the narrative that they chose to extinguish it and move to the den.
.

[sparrow]

I have so many problems with every theory I have read about, even the simplest ones.  If the rav4 were walking  along slowly, which seems logical, then when they came to the ravine, would not they have fallen over and slid a ways?  If that were the case then why are there no scratches or any bruises except for the one on Lyuda? If the snow cushioned their fall then how did they get broken bones?  If they were in the den and it collapsed on them then why didn't at least one of them die from asphyxiation?  If they died where they fell then how did Lyuda end up at a right angle and further away ( from the top edge of the ravine) than the three guys?  If you believe they were washed to where they were found then how could it look like Alexander was holding Simon? If Simon was too cold to write a message (or whatever) then why is he still able to hold a pencil and notebook?  And on and on the questions go. 

[sparrow]

I have so many problems with every theory I have read about, even the simplest ones.  If the rav4 were walking  along slowly, which seems logical, then when they came to the ravine, would not they have fallen over and slid a ways?  If that were the case then why are there no scratches or any bruises except for the one on Lyuda? If the snow cushioned their fall then how did they get broken bones?  If they were in the den and it collapsed on them then why didn't at least one of them die from asphyxiation?  If they died where they fell then how did Lyuda end up at a right angle and further away ( from the top edge of the ravine) than the three guys?  If you believe they were washed to where they were found then how could it look like Alexander was holding Simon? If Simon was too cold to write a message (or whatever) then why is he still able to hold a pencil and notebook?  And on and on the questions go. 

[sparrow]

Sorry about the post being posted twice.

[Star man]

One piece of evidence from an eye witness at the cedar I find interesting is the reported presence of a ladies handkerchief burned through in places.  Who's handerkerchief was this?  Presumably one of the girls.  Which one?  It suggests that Yuri K and Yuri D were not there alone.  So who was with them?  Between the cedar and the den some dropped clothing is found.  Is there a slope sufficient to cause those injuries to Lyuda and Semyon along that route?  If the handkerchief were Lyuda's it would help us understand if there was a credible fall down a slope, or at least help us understand the probability better.

Regards

Arar nan

[Nigel Evans]

One piece of evidence from an eye witness at the cedar I find interesting is the reported presence of a ladies handkerchief burned through in places.  Who's handerkerchief was this?  Presumably one of the girls.  Which one?  It suggests that Yuri K and Yuri D were not there alone.  So who was with them?  Between the cedar and the den some dropped clothing is found.  Is there a slope sufficient to cause those injuries to Lyuda and Semyon along that route?  If the handkerchief were Lyuda's it would help us understand if there was a credible fall down a slope, or at least help us understand the probability better.

Regards

Arar nan

Imo more curious are a sock, a cowboy shirt and a cap left by the fire. Why strip the bodies but leave those?

[Ting]

Imo more curious are a sock, a cowboy shirt and a cap left by the fire. Why strip the bodies but leave those?
[/quote] Nigel Evans

Perhaps they dropped them because they were in a rush. 
Maybe they were carrying other things and couldn't hold onto everything.
Or maybe it was the effects of hypothermia on co-ordination and movement. 
Or maybe they got wet from melting snow next to the fire and therefore useless. 
Or maybe the yeti was trying them on at the time.
It seems as though there are no simple answers to anything in this case. 

[Frankie]

Some of the information I have found about the rib fractures:


“...pliability of ribs results also in the facilitation of transfer of force along the bone. This causes its failure, or fracture, to be away from the impact site more often than in other bones (Watson-Jones, 1941). Clinical studies have indicated that when force is applied to the chest anteroposteriorly, the ribs tend to break at the point of curvature—anterolaterally (DiMaio and DiMaio, 1989). This type of force is often seen in MVAs and in patients who receive CPR. If force is applied in a way that compacts the chest laterally, the reverse is true. Lateral compaction results in rib fractures along the sternum and the spinal column (Galloway, 1999).”

If this is true, then it appears the force resulting in Dubinina’s fractures was anteroposterior - directed from the front toward the back.

And this:

“A significant amount of force to the chest is required to fracture ribs 1 to 3, and the likelihood of thoracic soft tissue injury is high. Similarly, fractures in ribs 8 to 11 increase the likelihood of having abdominal soft tissue injury (Burke, 2012). Ribs 6 to 8 are the most commonly fractured ribs (Galloway, 1999).”


Yet there is no mention of so much as a bruise on Dubinina’s torso. From this, I am led to believe the force was something like falling a long distance and landing flat on the front of the body. But what to make of those “middle” fractures? Could there have been two separate falls or injuries?

I am still researching specifically these fractures. I think they are meaningful in determining what happened. I will continue to post what I find, unless this doesn’t interest anyone but me.


(Sources: https://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=6718&context=etd, https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/full/10.1148/rg.2017160100)

[Monty]

Obviously you realize any yeti wouldn't be seen dead in a cowboy shirt and single sock.

[Monty]

Frankie - I have always found the way the injuries are described on this forum as complex to visualize. Please continue with your interpretation as it is simple and revealing.

[Nigel Evans]

Obviously you realize any yeti wouldn't be seen dead in a cowboy shirt and single sock.

Hmm, might clash with it's nail polish.

[Star man]

Some of the information I have found about the rib fractures:


“...pliability of ribs results also in the facilitation of transfer of force along the bone. This causes its failure, or fracture, to be away from the impact site more often than in other bones (Watson-Jones, 1941). Clinical studies have indicated that when force is applied to the chest anteroposteriorly, the ribs tend to break at the point of curvature—anterolaterally (DiMaio and DiMaio, 1989). This type of force is often seen in MVAs and in patients who receive CPR. If force is applied in a way that compacts the chest laterally, the reverse is true. Lateral compaction results in rib fractures along the sternum and the spinal column (Galloway, 1999).”

If this is true, then it appears the force resulting in Dubinina’s fractures was anteroposterior - directed from the front toward the back.

And this:

“A significant amount of force to the chest is required to fracture ribs 1 to 3, and the likelihood of thoracic soft tissue injury is high. Similarly, fractures in ribs 8 to 11 increase the likelihood of having abdominal soft tissue injury (Burke, 2012). Ribs 6 to 8 are the most commonly fractured ribs (Galloway, 1999).”


Yet there is no mention of so much as a bruise on Dubinina’s torso. From this, I am led to believe the force was something like falling a long distance and landing flat on the front of the body. But what to make of those “middle” fractures? Could there have been two separate falls or injuries?

I am still researching specifically these fractures. I think they are meaningful in determining what happened. I will continue to post what I find, unless this doesn’t interest anyone but me.


(Sources: https://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=6718&context=etd, https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/full/10.1148/rg.2017160100)

Keep the info coming Frankie.  Its all useful.

Regards

Star man

[Star man]

One piece of evidence from an eye witness at the cedar I find interesting is the reported presence of a ladies handkerchief burned through in places.  Who's handerkerchief was this?  Presumably one of the girls.  Which one?  It suggests that Yuri K and Yuri D were not there alone.  So who was with them?  Between the cedar and the den some dropped clothing is found.  Is there a slope sufficient to cause those injuries to Lyuda and Semyon along that route?  If the handkerchief were Lyuda's it would help us understand if there was a credible fall down a slope, or at least help us understand the probability better.

Regards

Arar nan

Imo more curious are a sock, a cowboy shirt and a cap left by the fire. Why strip the bodies but leave those?

Do you think they were in ah hurry or just incapacitated by cold?

Regards

Star man

[Nigel Evans]

@Frankie - fire away.

[WAB]

I have so many problems with every theory I have read about, even the simplest ones. 

Dear sparrow !
Strange as it may seem, these questions already have answers if you just include the logic and knowledge of a particular area, as well as the conditions that are there all the time.
We will disassemble everything separately.

If the rav4 were walking  along slowly, which seems logical, then when they came to the ravine, would not they have fallen over and slid a ways?

It is necessary to consider everything here in more detail, but you asked the question too abstractly. Please formulate the question in more specific way.
From what is already clear, I can say this:
1. They were walking slowly and came much later than the two Yura were at the cedar because they had carry Nikolai Tibo from the place where he was wounded.
2. On a slope they have fallen because they have not seen an edge of snowy top of a ravine against a white bottom. The white background is not visible in the darkness at all. But they saw the reflections of the cedar fire from above and went there because the fire meant warmth (as they thought it burned well) and they had already frozen in the cold.

If that were the case then why are there no scratches or any bruises except for the one on Lyuda?

First you have to understand why they have to be?
Further it is necessary to take into account, that in the big cold and fast (relatively) death they may not form. In addition, it should be taken into account that they were wearing clothes that to some extent protect it. And the most important thing is that on partially decomposed bodies it is either impossible to detect or Dr. Revived did not describe it, because it is very difficult to distinguish it from postmortem changes associated with additional efforts during transportation.
There is a very "slippery" question, which cannot be answered with a completely accurate answer. There are it is so many options.

If the snow cushioned their fall then how did they get broken bones? 

Everything works only within the limits of the possibility commit such events. Snow can soften a fall, but only within very small limits. You have to understand the relationship between the energy of a fall and the ability of snow to absorb that energy. According to Vladislav Karelin (he is one of the few people who could assess this situation well and correctly - he was well qualified for it), there was very little snow, so do not focus on the properties of snow to absorb movement. How much do you think can absorb 30 or 50 cm (0.5...0.7 ft) of snow (especially if it is not dense) if mans rolls down a slope 8m high (25 ft) and stops abruptly?

If they were in the den and it collapsed on them then why didn't at least one of them die from asphyxiation?

This is a typical misconception of those who do not know this place and conditions at all, but are trying to say something of their own. It's very fantastic. It's more fantastic than a UFO.
There's no way something's gonna collapse, especially if there's a lot of snow.
In March, there is more than an order of magnitude (~10 times) more snow there. In addition, it should be said that the snow is loose there until the intensive melting begins. It happens only in the second half of April or the very beginning of May.
In the stories of our March expedition 2019 (a week before the prosecutors arrived there) we tried to dig a cave in the snowiest place. That's what it looked like:
.
For reference: the full height of the measured river is 130 cm (4.3 ft). If you understand correctly, the diameter of the entrance (and in general the cave) is about 1 m (3.3 ft), so even for two people there will be tight, low and it will be difficult to get the right length along the slope.
In order to build this, we had all the necessary tools (avalanche shovel, skis, snow knives, good visibility and a complete understanding of what we are doing and why we are doing it), which they did not even have partially.
Even if the whole top part (~ 40 cm or 1.3 ft) collapses (this is very easy - the snow there is very loose even in March), nothing special will happen, this snow can be easily thrown off by hand. There will be no excesses, no one can suffocate or get hurt.
Let me remind you that there was much more snow this time than there was in March 1959. According to the available landmarks in the 1959 photos, the 2019 level was 0.5 ... 1, 2 m (1.5 ... 4 ft) more. This was measured in different places. We measured 8 points, which we were able to identify from the photo.
So nothing fell anywhere, and nobody died from suffocation because there were no such conditions.

If they died where they fell then how did Lyuda end up at a right angle and further away ( from the top edge of the ravine) than the three guys?

First, it is necessary to understand that the place where people were injured and the place where people died may be different, although it is not far from one another.

If you believe they were washed to where they were found then how could it look like Alexander was holding Simon?

Regarding the term " hollow out", I would prefer not to think in fantastic categories. It's not physically possible. In addition, the protocol states that the bodies (except for Luda) were placed with their feet in a layer of snow. So they could have shifted (bent) very slightly where the water was flowing and they didn't touch the old snow, but they couldn't have moved on if they weren't completely broken. According to my calculations on the ground this distance was about 40 m (20 ft).

If Simon was too cold to write a message (or whatever) then why is he still able to hold a pencil and notebook?  And on and on the questions go. 

It was just a vague memory of Vladimir Askinazi. I tried to clarify it several times in his e-mails, but he gives different answers each time and said that he remembers it very vaguely and does not want to confirm it exactly.
Additionally, you can take close look at the photo of the bodies in the stream taken before they were extracted:
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Kolevatov-Zolotaryov-Thibeaux-Brignolle.jpg 
and
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Dyatlov-pass-Kolevatov-Zolotaryov-bodies_1.jpg 

these photos show no notebooks or pencils. Even if you assume that it is not visible there, try to imagine in what hand he could hold it, if the fate that Semen was behind Alexander's back (it can be considered that he carried Semen)?

As you can see, when you look at the whole picture in detail and throw away what is physically impossible to do, everything is quite simple.

[sparrow]

WAB, thank you for your input.  Your answers really helped.  Here are a couple more questions for any one who wishes to take a stab at them  Your answers would truly be appreciated.

Does any one, besides me, think the flooring that was found could have been placed there by someone else shortly after the hikers died?
Could the de-comp, the rav4 ended up with, cover up signs of frost bite?
Do we still know the exact spot where the rav4 ended up or is it kind of guess work on our part?  I have read that we do and that we don't.
All replies are welcome. 

 

[MDGross]

Question 1: Avid Dyatlov researcher, Mr.Borzenkov, believes Kolevatov dug out the den and then moved Dubinina, Thibeaux-Brignolle and Zolotaryov, who were already injured in a steep fall, into the den.
Question 2: Don't know.
Question 3: No agreement on the precise location of the den and the four bodies. According to Borzenkov's map, the den and bodies were to the left of the Lozva tributary that runs through the area. Findings from 1959 when the bodies were found, place them to the right of the tributary.
WAB has travelled to the area several times and probably has his own opinion where the four bodies were found.

[Nigel Evans]

From memory the boulder that Lyudmila was draped over is easy to identify?