June 08, 2023, 02:09:19 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

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General Discussion / Re: Searched?
« Last post by eurocentric on Today at 01:57:15 AM »
In the winter my jacket's pockets will be unbuttoned because my hands are cold and keeping them in the pockets helps.

Boom.
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General Discussion / Re: Snow on the tent
« Last post by Ziljoe on June 07, 2023, 07:31:07 PM »
I want to go back a bit to where Ziljoe and I had a disagreement about the dates of the tent-finding. There is a lot of discrepancy regarding this, but I think here is a basic timeline, crudely accurate?

February 24 - Pashin and Cheglakov find the tent, but for whatever reason, do not attempt to go inside.

February 26 - Pashin and Cheglakov hint to other searchers which direction they should go in to find the tent. Slobtsov and Sharavin find the tent. It is covered with hard snow. There is an ice axe stuck outside the front entrance. They use the ice ax to cut into the snow on top of the tent and make some slashes in the fabric so they can peer inside (which Pashin and Cheglakov should have done) to see if there are any people in there. There are no people. Looking in through the cuts, they make a quick mental inventory, but do not go in. Ortyukov gives instructions to leave the tent alone until he can get there.

February 27 - Bodies are discovered and the focus moves away from the tent.

February 28 - Officials return to the tent and, with witnesses present, take photos and enter the tent. The only pictures that we have show the snow in a strange formation on top of one side of the tent, heavy and mounded, like snow that has been shoveled into place and then patted down with the back side of a shovel.



There is no disagreement from my view point. There is only the reports and dates given by the the Dyatlov website.

I  wholeheartedly agree there is a lot of  discrepancy. I think I've mentioned it a few times along with others.

However , I appreciate your timeline . Pashin and Cheglakov are an oddity. It's speculation that you say they find the tent on the 24th, it has some merit but it is not fact..

Slobtsov and Sharavin did more than peer into the tent, they took stuff from the tent.there is no 'in' to the tent . It is collapsed at the discovery on the 26th. They either crawled inside  the tent from holes they made or pealed it open with the cuts that were already made.  One does not take stuff or alcohol with out checking the full tent for missing persons . They have to go in to the tent like crawling under a blanket or peel it open.

It's late in the afternoon that Slobtsov and Sharavin find the tent and there will be a delay to when Ortyukov received this information.

The tent has already been violated before he gives instruction not to touch it

I don't know where you get a a pile of snow patted down with the back side of a shovel....?.



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General Discussion / Re: Searched?
« Last post by Manti on June 07, 2023, 02:28:44 PM »
In the winter my jacket's pockets will be unbuttoned because my hands are cold and keeping them in the pockets helps.
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General Discussion / Re: Snow on the tent
« Last post by amashilu on June 07, 2023, 10:10:42 AM »
I want to go back a bit to where Ziljoe and I had a disagreement about the dates of the tent-finding. There is a lot of discrepancy regarding this, but I think here is a basic timeline, crudely accurate?

February 24 - Pashin and Cheglakov find the tent, but for whatever reason, do not attempt to go inside.

February 26 - Pashin and Cheglakov hint to other searchers which direction they should go in to find the tent. Slobtsov and Sharavin find the tent. It is covered with hard snow. There is an ice axe stuck outside the front entrance. They use the ice ax to cut into the snow on top of the tent and make some slashes in the fabric so they can peer inside (which Pashin and Cheglakov should have done) to see if there are any people in there. There are no people. Looking in through the cuts, they make a quick mental inventory, but do not go in. Ortyukov gives instructions to leave the tent alone until he can get there.

February 27 - Bodies are discovered and the focus moves away from the tent.

February 28 - Officials return to the tent and, with witnesses present, take photos and enter the tent. The only pictures that we have show the snow in a strange formation on top of one side of the tent, heavy and mounded, like snow that has been shoveled into place and then patted down with the back side of a shovel.

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General Discussion / Re: Snow on the tent
« Last post by amashilu on June 07, 2023, 09:22:05 AM »
 Povetkin says:  "A criminal case is initiated only if there are signs of some kind of foul play, murder, negligence, treason, etc., provided for by a specific article of the Criminal Code."
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General Discussion / Re: Snow on the tent
« Last post by Ziljoe on June 07, 2023, 08:19:47 AM »
"The decision to initiate a criminal case was issued by V. Tempalov, the prosecutor of the city of Ivdel. This resolution was issued on February 26, 1959 and it states that the case was initiated in connection with the data on the discovery of the corpses of student hikers at the height 1079". So it is written in the introductory part of the resolution. (Povetkin)

The date of Feb. 26 has been called into question because the 26 looks to many folks like it was forged and it was originally February 6.

At any rate, I remember reading somewhere that because the searchers immediately suspected the Mansi of murdering the hikers, murder was their first assumption.


I'm aware of that but I do wonder what the phrase "criminal case" means. We have had errors in translation and law. One being, death by violence in Russia doesn't mean murder.

Having tried our friend Google about the laws of search and rescue , I found this.



Russia
Edit
In Russia, Article 125 of the criminal code prohibits knowingly abandoning people who are in life- or health-threatening situations when said people cannot help themselves. However it binds only those who are either legally obligated to care for said people or who themselves have put said people into life or health threatening situation. The maximum penalty is 1 year in prison.[49]

Serbia
Edit
In Serbia, a citizen is required by law to provide help to anyone in need (after for example a major car accident) as long as providing help does not endanger him or her personally. Serbian criminal code Articles 126 and 127 state that should one abandon a helpless person and/or not provide aid to a person in need, one could receive a prison sentence of up to one year. If the person dies of injuries due to no aid having been provided by the bystander, a sentence up to 8 years in prison can be imposed.


I wonder if we are confusing the term criminal case in its simplest terms and assuming it's being addressed as a crime has taken place , where as it's actually being addressed as the potential of a criminal case if they don't at least try and help the missing hikers?

Maybe one of our Russian members could clarify?

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General Discussion / Re: Snow on the tent
« Last post by amashilu on June 07, 2023, 07:58:40 AM »
"The decision to initiate a criminal case was issued by V. Tempalov, the prosecutor of the city of Ivdel. This resolution was issued on February 26, 1959 and it states that the case was initiated in connection with the data on the discovery of the corpses of student hikers at the height 1079". So it is written in the introductory part of the resolution. (Povetkin)

The date of Feb. 26 has been called into question because the 26 looks to many folks like it was forged and it was originally February 6.

At any rate, I remember reading somewhere that because the searchers immediately suspected the Mansi of murdering the hikers, murder was their first assumption.
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General Discussion / Re: Searched?
« Last post by Ziljoe on June 07, 2023, 06:36:38 AM »
https://dyatlovpass.com/natalya-saharova-KP?rbid=18461

At the above link -- definitely worth reading -- there is a wrap-up section near the end called SO WHAT HAPPENED THERE?. I am struck by how this doctor and forensic expert's conclusions align with our forum's murder speculations. But in this post, I want to focus on one intriguing detail -- she noted that all their pockets were unbuttoned and their jackets unzipped; she says this indicates they were all searched. IF this were true, what might the searchers have been looking for?

I had wondered about the various unbuttoned jackets etc. A couple of thoughts. The hikers may have unbuttoned their own jacket pockets for example to retrieve matches etc. And never bothered to rebutton them. Also the searchers may have go e through what they could at the location , just to find any clues or documentation? . By the time they got to the autopsy or properly searched and documented no one was asked if anyone had Intially searched the bodies?
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General Discussion / Re: Snow on the tent
« Last post by Ziljoe on June 07, 2023, 06:07:48 AM »
This is a quote from Natalya Saharova, forensic expert (https://dyatlovpass.com/natalya-saharova-KP?rbid=18461), who examined the case in 2014.

I analyzed the available photographic materials. The tent for example. The snow lies in layers around, without marks. I assume that the area near the tent was deliberately covered with snow to hide the traces (shoes, wrestling, dragging, where the guys left the tent). With such an arrangement of snow on the tent, it is impossible to make linear cuts in the side panel - it must be stretched. That is, the cuts were made before the snow was piled up.

Apparently, the sequence was like this. First, the tent standing on the struts was cut, the actions near the tent were hidden under the snow thrown around, inside the tent was inspected using a flashlight (lying on a layer of snow), then the tent was covered with snow, which is why it sank, the flashlight was placed on top.


She is suggesting the scene was staged. I don't know why I haven't seen this report before. It is a fascinating read.

She has some valid points but for me , a lot of how the case unfolds , ties in with the myths.

The poor documentation and the photos do raise a question . The photos do not look like a formal crime seen investigation that we might imagine in our minds from what we see on TV.

If we try to understand the chronological events of the search and rescue , it can lead us to comprehending how things may have got into such a twisted knot.

The question I would like to ask is, was the case a criminal case from the start?.

I do not know how search and rescue cases are filed or documented in any country. Even in the UK with hikers that are found dead on the hills , I don't know if forensic style photos are taken and the location of every object is documented?.


The point being, was everything getting executed in the context of search and rescue for the Dyatlov group.....? ....... It would seem that it was.

There were at least 3 tourist groups in the area, possibly more all over the country as this is what students did, it was a popular activity all year round, there is nothing mysterious about their back packs, distance travelled, equipment, it's all a standard passtime and they were well experienced. One of the other groups got into trouble as they burned their tent, they continued their hike by making snow dens and on their return were recruited to join the search parties for the Dyatlov group.

As I understand it, several search groups were dropped off in various pre planned, logical search patterns. One being the final known destination, mt Oroten and they were to work backwards  , another group to follow the route from the last known location and work forwards, plus other groups dropped off inbetween. Flights by planes and helicopters were utilised to see if anything can be seen , which I believe some trails could be observed, deer paths and possibly ski/sliegh trails .

Anyway, coming back to the tent and surrounding snow. The photo we see is the following day after its discovery. None of the witnesses report seeing footprints or signs of outsiders. Not one.

I don't fully understand what Natalya Saharova is implying. We can see that the searcher's were not sinking into snow leaving footprints. There had been considerable snow fall , or wind swept snow over the 3 weeks. The photo we have of the tent is after people had entered it. Natalya Saharova may be suggesting it was staged but she is working from the same resources as the rest of us.

I do not think it's impossible to make cuts in the tent if it's collapsed or otherwise.

Natalya Saharova believes it was murder and questions the nature of the investigation, lack of photos and interviews etc , which is a good and fair point.

However, this is why I ask the question ;was the case a criminal case from the start?

I think this question is important because it will determine how we view the sequence of events and why we are confused.

If we assume  those in charge of the search and rescue were by all means , doing the logical standard procedures with no prior knowledge or suspicion of murder ,we can observe

1: they start to organise resources , search flights, start contacting locals/mansi and students at the gymnasium to search, sappers with mine detectors and sniffer dogs are requested and of course the military resources would be used in conjunction with all of the above.

2: they set up a base camp, clear trees so the helicopter can land with supplies .

3: the hikers tent is found, quickly searched by the untrained students that were given no instructions of protocol and some items are taken back to base camp that evening along with the information that there are no bodies. ( Possible extra cuts were made and excavation of snow on top of the tent during the initial finding of the tent) . On students return to base camp , Basecamp radios to lead investigator, lead investigator gives order to not touch anything . This request is too late  as it is after the tent has been reported found. the tent site has been innocently searched.

4: following day, foot prints are found that lead down the slope, the priority is to find the hikers, hopefully alive. It is still a search effort at this point. The two Yuri's are found (and here we get one of the first myths that's over reported , that the hikers left the tent undressed and in their underwear. Although it's a truth at that moment in time, the two Yuri's were were found poorly dressed and in their under garments, the rest of their clothes were later to be found around the den area and perhaps used/shared by the other hikers) . Dyatlov and Zina are also quickly found but better dressed.
The tent is also 'officially' searched on that day  and it is reported that some of the searcher's are affected by the news of the comrades death's. The radiograms add a bit to the confusion but I suspect that's down to word of mouth and delays in communication at the site, we have several separate localised search's occuring at the same time. This will be on the slope, at the ceder and the tent. There is initial mis Identity of one of the Yuri's , the transportation of the bodies to boot rock,  probably speculation and gossip by all involved. There is a lot going on. We can read in later interviews by various witnesses that they were speculating all kind of ideas as to why the hikers left the tent.( This is when the first rumours would have started, none based on facts.) 

5: Rustem is found two days later. Autopsies are carried out and inspection of the ripped tent , where it is then reported that some of the cuts in the tent suggest that it was cut from the inside. ( Side note: I question the lack of information regarding the state of the tent from when first discovered and packed up to the picture we have with all the cuts. It is in shreds by the time it is hung for the photo. You don't need to be a forensic expert to notice how badly damaged the tent is. Why this is not documented is another puzzle.)

6: 2 months go by until the ravine 4 are found with the most serious injuries.

The details and report about the tent being cut from the inside and the ravine 4 is important to the context to the initial search and how we perceive the investigation. These facts were found out after the initial search and rescue . Those in charge of the initial search did not have this information, they had no reason to think or believe that they should be documenting every single moment of the search  as a potential murder scene. That in parallel with the fact that there were no injuries to the first 5 hikers bodies that would imply outsiders , or at least murder by human hands. We can argue that Rustem had a fractured skull but again, those doing the search would not know that information, they don't have any autopsy data to raise any suspicion. At that moment in time , all the effort is being put into missing tourists that they want to find.



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General Discussion / Re: Searched?
« Last post by anna_pycckux on June 07, 2023, 05:51:42 AM »
According to my version, denunciations were written to the group that they were spies and wanted to escape to the West (according to Yu. Yudina). KGB officers or the military could look for route maps, an escape plan to the west, documents from UPI with secret developments or something else on this topic as evidence of an impending escape.But apparently they found only a comb with broken teeth, a change of money, a box of matches.. and nothing more..
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