May 23, 2022, 04:22:51 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

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Murdered / Re: A problem with homicide theories
« Last post by Ziljoe on May 22, 2022, 02:41:15 PM »
Not a problem Jean Daniel Reuss.

My English is bad. It should read , it does not mean 'they' were washed down with 'the' water of the stream.

I agree that the word "ravine" may not be suitable or infer some large canyon. However, they were found under a large mass of snow. Reports indicate that it was hard snow.
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Murdered / Re: A problem with homicide theories
« Last post by Jean Daniel Reuss on May 22, 2022, 07:54:25 AM »
                       Reply #76
........................................
 it does not mean the were washed down with water of the stream. They chose a snow hole , snow bridge or cave that was already there.
......................................

Many thanks for having corrected my unforgivable mistake.

I do apologize, I had made a huge mistake in my translation.
I now understand that you mean that they abandoned the 4 branch beds (referred to as "the Den") to voluntarily relocate a few meters downstream in order to hide in a snow cave or big hole
(referred to as "the Ravine", despite the place being located in a tiny valley and not in a canyon)
which then collapsed on them.

In summary, I had mistakenly translated :
washed down with water of the stream

by: entrained downstream and properly cleaned by the water stream (and thus without trace of radiation).
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Murdered / Re: A problem with homicide theories
« Last post by Игорь Б. on May 18, 2022, 07:35:39 PM »
Another reason might be the presence of flowing water underneath the snow. Can the presence of flowing water modify the snow which is above ?

Настил находился от тел в 11 метрах выше по течению того же ручья. Снег над настилом был мягкий (видно на фотографии):
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=64622

Снег и должен быть мягким, если не было обрушения:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=89802
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Murdered / Re: A problem with homicide theories
« Last post by Ziljoe on May 18, 2022, 06:00:50 PM »
This indicates that the snow was different from the surrounding snow. One reason this snow might have been difficult to dig is if there had been a snow collapse.

Another reason might be the presence of flowing water underneath the snow. Can the presence of flowing water modify the snow which is above ?


Perhaps......but everything is perhaps regarding this case.  4 bodies under hard snow with 2 having collapsed ribs makes sense. If it were outsiders, why not try to  hide them all? 
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Murdered / Re: A problem with homicide theories
« Last post by Charles on May 18, 2022, 10:47:45 AM »
This indicates that the snow was different from the surrounding snow. One reason this snow might have been difficult to dig is if there had been a snow collapse.

Another reason might be the presence of flowing water underneath the snow. Can the presence of flowing water modify the snow which is above ?
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General Discussion / Re: The cuts on tent simply doesn't make any sense
« Last post by Manti on May 17, 2022, 03:39:51 PM »
About the cuts I have two theories

A.

The investigation was botched, evidence not collected with enough care. The cuts in this scenario are made by searchers' ice axes as they were digging out the tent.

Counterarguments: the cuts being apparently from the inside, however this might be a mistake of the person who examined the tent.


B.

Hypothermic hallucinations. The cuts were made by a member or members of the Dyatlov group, in a state of hypothermic delirium or paranoia which set in already in the tent. Remember that the tent was unheated, exposed to the wind on the slope that was compared to the speed of airflow from a jet engine. In this scenario, the group is already getting hypothermic on their ascent up Kholat. They see no other option but to set up the tent as some members can't continue, however, they fail to install the stove for some reason. Some members of the group are in more advanced hypothermia and start hallucinating and cut the tent. At this point the group leaves for the forest, their last hope is starting a campfire. Some succumb on the way.


Somewhat supporting this are the autopsies stating they died 6-8 hours after their last meal, and my recent readings about hypothermia victims among Mount Everest climbers, who in some cases took more than 8 hours to die after becoming immobile in similar temperatures and windchill.
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Murdered / Re: A problem with homicide theories
« Last post by Ziljoe on May 17, 2022, 03:07:32 PM »
Hi Jean Daniel Reuss,

It will be my poor English.

The searchers found evidence from their probes to dig in the location of the ravine 4. On digging they found the snow was difficult to dig. They requested strong men to do the digging. This indicates that the snow was different from the surrounding snow. One reason this snow might have been difficult to dig is if there had been a snow collapse.

Because the ravine 4  were not found at the den with sticks , firs and clothes, it does not mean the were washed down with water of the stream. They chose a snow hole , snow bridge or cave that was already there.

Imagine 4 people taking shelter in a snow cave and a large amount of snow falls from above. What would happen to the bones in the body? 
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Murdered / Re: A problem with homicide theories
« Last post by Jean Daniel Reuss on May 17, 2022, 02:34:57 PM »
                Reply #73   
How could the corpses have been moved by a natural cause while the beds of branches seem not to have moved ?
No one had moved anywhere. There were two shelters - a tree decking and a snow cave. The distance between them was 11 metres. It was impossible to make one shelter for 9 people in those conditions.
In addition, it is obvious that they had two different approaches to building snow shelters.
P.S. Any version of a murder is refuted by Vishnevsky's stains.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=107726
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=90162

The main weakness of the wolverine theory is that it does not explain the numerous injuries and fractures that were observed.

I agree with the statements that you are quoting:
The severity of Vishnevsky's spots depends on the duration of dying: if death occurs quickly, they are singular or there may be none.
In death, which occurs several hours after the onset of cooling, the spots are multiple and are an almost constant finding at autopsy.
Wischnewsky (or Vischnevsky) Spots in Fatal Hypothermia:
These stains do not form immediately, but a few hours after the onset of hypothermia.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
On the other hand, I think that taking into account the Vishnevski stains brings an argument in favour of the theory of murders or massacre according to TOKEB.

 •  Attackers kept Kolmogorova, Slobodin, Dyatlov,  alive in the cold for several hours, perhaps 10 hours, As a result, they had Vischnevsky stains (and severe frostbites on their limbs), until they froze to death.

 •  On the other hand Doroshenko and Krivonishchenko die more quickly, maybe 3 hours after losing consciousness, so around 2.00 AM - 2 February.
 
 •  With regard to Dubinina, Zolotaryov, Thibault, Kolevatov, all four are killed almost instantly during the short final fight near the Den
at 7.10 AM - 2 February.  (no stains).

We have different views on the massacre that took place on the night of 1 to 2 February 1959 on the slope of Kholat Syakhl.
I am making below a schematic and simplified table of the chronology of the events according to the main lines of the TOKEB theory.
Naturally, the logically reconstituted times listed are given as an indication and and should be treated as rough approximations.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
8.00 PM - 1 February: 9 leaving the tent without the essential equipment  = attackers launched a kind of dope inside
8.15 PM - 1 February: Kolmogorova knocked out, stunned going down the slope, lies in the snow unable to move, but alive because her injuries are not fatal.
8.18 PM - 1 February: Slobodin  knocked out, stunned going down the slope, lies in the snow unable to move, but alive because his injuries are not fatal.

8.30 PM - 1 February: The 7 remaining hikers reach the cedar.
9.00 PM - 1 February: The fire is lit but after some discussion and perhaps an altercation Zolotaryov, Thibault, Kolevatov, Dubinina move away from the fire and leave with the purpose of setting up and hiding in an unknown Den.

9.15 PM - 1 February:  Dyatlov  knocked out, stunned going UP the slope, his ankles may be tied to immobilise him....

*** At this moment Kolmogorova, Slobodin, Dyatlov are knocked out but alive. They are slowly cooling down lying in the snow.
Kolmogorova, Slobodin, Dyatlov will die much later for instancee on 8.00 AM - 2 February.
Doroshenko and Krivonishchenko remain alone beside the fire under the cedar.

9.30 PM - 1 February: Doroshenko easily knocked out because being beside the fire he is dazzled and cannot see the attackers coming.
9.32 PM - 1 February: Krivonishchenko detected by the attackers at the top of the cedar........
9.40 PM - 1 February: beginning of the Krivonishchenko torture with the question : where the 4 absent hikers went ?
10.40 PM - 1 February: stopping the unsuccessful torture of Krivonishchenko. The attackers return to the tent, checking that Dyatlov Slobodin, Kolmogorova have not moved.
11.10 PM - 1 February: Attackers settle into the tent to warm up, eat, rest, sleep...

*** Thus the Den's hiding place will prove effective for about 9 hours:
6.00 AM - 2 February: Zolotaryov, Thibault, Kolevatov, Dubinina  come out from the Den and find Doroshenko and Krivonishchenko dead under the cedar.
6.30 AM - 2 February: Zolotaryov, Thibault, Kolevatov, Dubinina  return to the Den. Their mood is low as they realize that the other 5 hikers are definitively  neutralized.

6.40 AM - 2 February: The attackers go back down the slope towards the cedar in search of the 4 hihers still unharmed.
7.00 AM - 2 February: The attackers easily find the Den's hiding place as it is not yet completely dark. (civil dawn about 7.33 AM & surise about 8.23 AM).
7.05 AM - 2 February: The 4 hikers are forcefully removed from their hiding place.
7.10 AM - 2 February: The 4 hikers are hit with strength and promptly killed.
7.20 AM - 2 February: Trampoline exercises on the chests of Zolotaryov and Dubinina.......
                      Use of a small spoon, the edges of which had been previously sharpened with a file or a grinding wheel (--> four eyes).................
7.30 AM - 2 February: The 4 corpses are counted (there are in fact 4 for sure) and thrown down a natural hole 11 metres downstream from the Den.

8.00 AM - 2 February: The attackers settle in the still intact tent to eat and rest.
11.00 AM - 2 February: The attackers leave in the direction of North-2 after cutting the canvas of the tent from the inside.

 
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
About the time displayed on the watches, see also :
https://dyatlovpass.com/watches?filter_page=2&rbid=18461
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=621.0
PJ : I have big doubts if the Experiment with Watches gives any clues about the fact what time they die.

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Murdered / Re: A problem with homicide theories
« Last post by Jean Daniel Reuss on May 17, 2022, 02:31:01 PM »


I think I did not really understand the comment you wrote. Maybe it is a translation problem as I am very bad at English.

Reply #72
.....................................................
It is not because it was hardened snow that fell on top of them but rather the reporting of hard snow when digging the bodies out that indicates that there had been a snow collapse.
The position of the bodies also suggests that they were perhaps lying in that position .......
 It is not that the snow collapsed at the actual den and there bodies migrated , rather the ravine 4 moved themselves to that location where the bodies were found...................

*** After the Den had been difficult to set up, "the four" would have voluntarily chosen to settle in an other particularly unsuitable place (because it was steep : small waterfall).  ! ?
This seems unbelievable to me.

*** What I pretentiously call the TOKEB theory is still under development because, as you know, the DPI requires taking into account and evaluating thousands of sometimes incompatible elements. (The TOKEB theory should be seen as a didactic device intended to present my explanatory hypothesis in a simple way).
So I appreciate all your objections.

*** But I did not understand why the consideration of Vishnevsky's stains, indicated by Igor B., Reply #73, can be an obstacle to the murder theories.
See, my next post addressed to Igor B., Reply #75.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Additional practical clarifications:

In the present topic=744, it is about discussing the "HOW" question. The "WHO" and "WHY" questions are other equally interesting and difficult topics, to be considered elsewhere.

In the TOKEB theory, it is important to note that the only weapons used by the attackers were wooden clubs ("big stick"). Because a "big stick" is a weapon that has the great advantage, in the darkness, of knocking out silently, provided it is handled by strong arms.


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Altercation on the pass / Re: About the level of frustration within the group
« Last post by Charles on May 16, 2022, 12:55:11 AM »
Desire, envy, jealousy, fear, anger and violence are highly contagious feelings. Human beings are sound boxes for these phenomenons, we even have special neurons called mirror neurons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron) which give us the ability both to learn and to compete, to echo what our friends and neighbors feel... The group of hikers were so isolated, it was like they were closed in a cell: they had barely any escape. They were often agglomerated like a unique special social body, doomed to promiscuity during their holidays in the infinite spaces of the Urals as if they still were in a komunalka (communal apartment)...



"We were full up to the ceiling. First layer passengers sat on the seats, on a pile of skis, on backpacks. Second layer passengers sat on the backs of the seats, finding a place for legs on the shoulders of comrades"

And:"Two people per bed", "Had to lay down in beds by two", "We lay down with Zina on a spring bed"...

And in the tent: "Nobody wants to sleep by the stove. We agree that Yurka Kri (Krivonischenko) will sleep there. On the other side sleeps the person on duty (Sasha Kolevatov). Yurka couldn't stand the heat and after laying down for 1-2 min, he got up and moved to the second section cursing and accusing us of treason. After that they still argued about something for a long time"

And: "Had to travel on 3 levels. Kolka Tibo (Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle) had to push his body to the ceiling, Olva first stood in (illegible word) position, but soon she couldn't stand it anymore and got down on her knees.".

They are agglomerated to each other at a level where they can't even physically stand it anymore...

Their only privacy was their private diary and silent thoughts. And not really the diaries as Krivonishenko knew the content of Dubinina's private diary and wrote about it in the group's diary (!!!) : "Ognev is an old friend, he is described in Lyuda Dubinina's private diary." and Yudin crossed out the politically dangerous sentence about innocent people sent to the gulag in his. No other escape but the silent thoughts...

But in the silent thoughts, it was certainly boiling up too : Lyuda's sadness , Zina's jealousy, Thibeaux's revolt, Dyatlov's love, etc.

And the meeting of Dyatlov's group and Ognev's gang could have been some kind of dangerous experiment. Because Ognev's gang was a similar kind of human aggregate. We can see it on the pictures, how they look like a pack. These were adults sleeping in a dormitory like the hikers slept in the tent, with an obvious leader and his followers, with its own internal history and dynamics. They were all young, all Russians, they played the guitar and sang songs, all equals but not equal, because the two groups also differed, the main differences being social status and the girls as its consequence. They were equals in age and nationality but any difference was a ground for scandal, any difference was both a temptation and an obstacle for Ognev's gang as it was absolutely obvious that these differences were forbidden, that the loggers could never ever have had any romance with the city girls, that "tourism" would never be one of their occupations... they were invited to smell the food but eating was forbidden.

And when Zina wrote about Doroshenko: "we are together and yet we’re not together"... she was giving us a very important clue about Dyatlov's group. Because when the hikers met the loggers, the immediate task of the loggers was to evaluate the availability of the girls... they tried to understand the web of relationships among the hikers: who is with who? But they could only understand that frustration was raging with more violence that it was within their own group... Because let's be factual: Dyatlov was in love with Zina, Zina was in love with Doroshenko, and Doroshenko slept in the same tent as Dyatlov, maybe in the same bed... what kind of recipe is that ?

And the first page of the group's diary, Zina wrote: "Igor! Where are you? Where is Doroshenko?"... asking her suitor where was his rival, where was the other man she loved... Imagine Dyatlov reading theses lines... Lyuda had some consciousness that her behavior was fueling anger and frustration with Zhenia, but Zina was an innocent sadist... Actually, they were all innocent sadists... The way they made the children cry was sadistic... It was the same torture, the same tool as "Igor! Where are you? Where is Doroshenko?" and "I told him I liked him as a joke"...

Innocent sadists meeting young brutes at the limit of civilization and wilderness... and death was not an easy one, in the end, it was slow, terrifying and extremely violent.






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