...........Some further aspects that need scrutiny, IMHO:...............See Reply #31
.................alecsandros-like subjects and questions.....- see Reply #32..............
Thank you for your thoughtful queries that help me improve my hypothesis N°2 (which has the advantage of being able to provide a plausible explanation for all of the events that are currently on display at the site developed by Teddy)
how little did Dyatlov Group move on Fev 1st: 900meters. That's very little. I wonder why ?
••• This question had already been asked by
Louisette in two topics (with the same name). See :
Louisette : General Discussion > Strange slow progression after (labaz) = November 11, 2019, 05:53:22 AM (0 reply)
Louisette : General Discussion > Strange slow progression after (labaz) = November 13, 2019, 06:11:47 PM (2 reply)
Indeed, on 1 February the hikers moved 2.5 km (not 4 km) horizontally and
climbed 300m in altitude. Look at : November 30, 2019, 09:25:52 AM, my Reply #1
No wonder, on soft snow, in cold and bad weather:
a) On the morning of February 1st the hikers spent 4 hours sorting the material out of the rucksacks and building their own labaz (cache).
"...In the storage were nineteen items of food with
a total weight of 55 kg. Also found were some medical supplies and Dyatlov's warm outer boots, plus one pair of spare ski boots, a mandolin, a set of batteries and a lamp, and an extra set of skis. The storage depot was found 500 meters below the top edge of the forest, in the upper sources of Auspiya river."
b) A rate of ascent of 100 meters in altitude is normal, so 3 hours of travel.
c) Construction of the platform with a protective snow wall, anchoring to withstand the wind and erection of the tent: 2 hours minimum.
The hikers were very busy all day long on February 1st (without suspecting the attack they were going to suffer next).
why didn't the members of Dyatlov Group use the axes at hand ?
••• Because the surprise was total. The hikers did not immediately understand that the people who reached their tents at nightfall were not lost peaceful wanderers. On the contrary, they were what I call attackers, although in all honesty they were determined and ruthless murderers.
In 1959 the official statements of the government authorities looked like overly optimistic propaganda.
The Patriotic war is over. The excessive Stalin is replaced by the righteous Khrushchev. There is no more danger for honest citizens. Peace and security reign throughout the country. The Soviet Union is becoming a model for all the countries of the world. Our police are effective, so the criminals are all in jail. Our country surpasses the USA in almost all domains. Everyone is happy. ........Besides, this security atmosphere was neither entirely true nor entirely false.
Thus, this was true in the UPI which is a great privileged school with students and professors necessarily selected.
This was no longer true in the suburbs of the big cities or in the small remote villages in Taiga.
In other words, Lev Gordo (Chairman of the board of the UPI sports club), Korolev, eller Vasiliy Korolyov, (Chairman of the Route Commission) and the other members: Novikova, Evgeniy Maslennikov, Stanislav Bogomolov were living under the illusion of widespread security throughout the country.
It is an example of the randomness of the war, which on a philosophical level can even illustrate the unpredictability of the human condition.
It would have taken only a few more seconds for the hikers to be able to hold an axe or the ice axe in one hand. And then the DPI could have been very different. The result could have been 3 ex-zeks dead with their skulls cracked open by an axe blow and 2 hikers slightly injured...
where they to heavily engaged (attacked) to be able to take anything for self defense ?
I will detail later the hurried and forced exit of the tent in total confusion, with 3 stages, according to my hypothesis N°2.
1) Introduction by surprise inside the tent of an Improvised Suffocating Device releasing SO². Probably 1 kg of a mixture of potassium nitrate and sulphur powder: 2.KNO³ + 4.S --> 3.SO² + N² + K²S =>> absolute necessity to exit from the tent in less than 2 minutes without seeing anything because the eyes are bulging.
2) The classic war trick. By shouting very loudly the gases are arriving, the gas is coming everywhere on the slope. Let us all flee to the forest => illusion during 5 minutes.
3) Then jostling and first light hits with the sticks => the hikers still continue to go down towards the cedar for a few minutes.
Once they got out of the tent, it was too late. All they had available were their bare fists to defend themselves. The athletic hikers struck with strength and bravery, but were overwhelmed in the end by the attackers armed with heavy clubs (probably made of birch wood) who were able to keep the advantage of the initiative.
there should have been footprints of the attackers,........... Do you think the wind erased those tracks by covering with snow ?
••• Between 2 February and the arrival of the rescuers on 26 February the wind had had time to blow and cover with snow the corpses and almost all the footprints (according to the hazards of Fluid Mechanics applied to cold air).
I find it peculiar that only the "8 or 9" footprints remained unobscured by snow.
••• It is not surprising that some rare footprints remain for a long time and that other footprints, on the contrary, are completely erased and covered by the snow.
See also :
Teddy : General Discussion / Experiment with raised tracks - April 11, 2020, 12:03:49 AM »
the skiers were able to make a fire... then for some time that means they were free from attack.
Why do you think the assaillants left them near the cedar un-attacked ?
Here are the main lines of the description of the night of February 1 to 2, 1959 according to my hypothesis N°2.
To facilitate the reading I have added precisions and details which are probable but imaginary, therefore without importance for the general comprehension.
First of all here are 2 observations:
1°)
The attackers had long been mentally prepared for this deadly fight and had the advantage of initiative.
The attackers had adopted a skilful and powerful tactic: a succession of surprise offensives followed by temporary retreats.
The attackers were properly dressed and suffered little or no pain from the cold, unlike the hikers who were slowed down by the cold.
The attackers had good shoes (or boots) and could move in total darkness faster (or less slowly) than hikers over uneven terrain covered with snow and rocks.
2°)
As Per Inge Oestmoen pointed out
To kill, it is sufficient to first stun the victim with a blow (preferably) on the head. Then, if no one comes to warm or rescue the unconscious victim, he or she will finally freeze to death, more or less slowly.
INITIAL ATTACK on February 1, 1959
8.00 pm Surprise introduction inside the tent of an Improvised Suffocating Device that emits SO² gas
8.02 pm leaving the tent by the nine suffocating hikers.
8.03 pm the attackers scream (but this is a sneaky war trick): the asphyxiating gases are arriving let us all flee quickly to the nearby forest.
The attackers jostle the hikers a bit to encourage them to go down the slope towards the forest.
8.13 pm Kolmogorova begins to think that the attackers are completely fooling the hikers, who will soon freeze to death if they don't get back to the tent quickly.
FIRST OFFENSIVE
8.17 pm Kolmogorova is knocked out, (although not fatally wounded), 950 m from the tent (and will never get up again).
8.19 pm Slobodin is knocked out 1050 m from the tent (and will never get up again).
8.20 pm The attackers stop going down because they are being exhausted by the punches they have received.
The other 7 hikers continue walking to reach the forest which is close by and where the (icy) wind does not blow.
End of the first offensive
8.40 pm At the foot of the cedar the 7 hikers who are still standing are concerting to each other and do not venture to go back up to the tent immediately.
Dyatlov, Doroshenko and Krivonoschenko decide that it is first necessary to light a fire so as not to freeze to death.
Tibo, Kolevatov and Zolotaryov, because they are more politically aware, prefer to be less visible and less noticeable. They also fear that Dubinina has talked too much (about Stalin...) at Vizhay and therefore that Dubinina is in danger.
9.10 pm The fire is lit while the 4 from the den go into hiding a little further away.
11.10 pm Dyatlov decides to cautiously go back up to the tent hoping not to be spotted (because the wind is strong), to find out what happened to Kolmogorova and Slobodin.
SECOND OFFENSIVE
11.15 pm Dyatlov is detected by attackers 300 m from the cedar tree
11.20 pm Dyatlov is knocked out.
11.25 pm Dyatlov's ankles are tied to make sure he is completely neutralized.
End of the second offensive
THIRD OFFENSIVE
11.35 pm Doroshenko is stunned alone, as Krinonishenko has climbed on the cedar to try to see Dyatlov (who is also unconscious and immobilized by ankle ties 300 m from the cedar).
11.40 pm Krinonishenko is pulled down of the cedar. The attackers begin to torture Krinonishenko by placing one of his leg in the fire to make him tell where the four of the den are hidden.
12.10 pm Krinonishenko who did not speak is left at the foot of the cedar completely unconscious. The attackers go back up to the tent to rest and wait patiently for further events...
End of the third offensive
FOURTH OFFENSIVE, february 2, 1959
5.10 am the four from the den come out of the den and find Doroshenko and Krinonishenko dead
5.30 am The attackers who had gone down to watch the cedar area (because the moon was up at the time) stunned one by one the 4 hikers who had survived, but who had not remained strictly grouped together.
5.40 am End of the confusing and heated fighting between the cedar and the den. To symbolically celebrate their victory and to free themselves from intense nervous tension, the attackers hit the corpses lying on the ground, breaking a few bones (skulls and ribs), tearing out a few eyes and cutting out the tongue of the Stalinist Dubinina with a small knife so that, even though she is dead, she will no longer be able to symbolically spout his infamous propaganda...
6.20 The work is finished, the 4 corpses are slid into the small depression formed by the snow-covered ravine.
End of the fourth offensive and victory of the attackers
how do you explain the lack of hit marks on Dyatlov, Doroshenko and Krivonishenko ?
••• But there are some very visible marks of blows on the bodies: ("...bruise...bruises...pink and brown-red bruise...brusing abrasions...dark red abrasions....brown-red abrasions.....abrasion in pale red color..........brown red graze....hemorrhages......etc")
Look at the autopsy reports that can be accessed from the page
and also look at :
In the case of the four of the den the statements were difficult to establish because the bodies were rotten and it was instead recorded:
"lack of soft tissues ....missing soft tissues..."
in theory, there should have been footprints of the attackers when they left the scene for good. Why aren't there any other footprints ?
••• It is really a matter of randomness in the sense that these are unpredictable phenomena in practice. Fluid Mechanics can explain theoretically that air currents were and are unpredictable under the DPI conditions.
The wind blows strongly and for a long time on an irregular slope. Some traces remain, others become harder and more visible and most of the traces disappear completely.
Note that the attackers did not try to dissimulate the footprints or battle tracks. The attackers were right to know that it was completely useless as the rescuers would not arrive for several days.
Look also at :
Teddy Experiment with raised tracks April 11, 2020, 12:03:49 AM
the Dyatlov Group was following a mansi hunter trail.
•••
Dyatlov's group diary , 29.1.59
"...We walked along a Mansi trail. ..."
Kolmogorova diary , 29.1.59 :
"...Along the Auspiya Mansi have passed. A trail is visible, grooves, a path is visible. We often see Mansi signs on the trail. I wonder what they write about? Now the Mansi trail goes South..."
Kolmogorova diary , 30.2.59 :
"...We go on Auspiya... Mansi trail ended. Pine forest. There was sun in the morning, now is cold (ayserm). All day long we walked along Auspiya. Will spend the night on a Mansi trail. Kolya didn't get to be a watchman so me and Rustik will stay on duty today. Burned mittens and Yurkin's second quilted jacket. He cursed a lot. Today, probably, we will build a storage....".So the hikers followed one or two Mansi tracks in the snow for a few kilometers (because it is easier to move forward when the snow is already packed). But theses tracks, probably left a few days before by one or more Mansi hunters, did not suit them because this or these track(s) extended in the wrong direction, for instance to the south.
They actually encountered a hunter at one point.
••• The hikers encountered no one other than the silhouette that impressed the film on Tibo's camera. There are at least 4 explanations for photo N°17 :
a) •
It was Tibo himself who made a small staging using a time delay trigger (Tibo wanted to bring back from his vacation in the Ural Mountains a funny, spectacular picture....
See :
PJ: Murdered > Resistance goup maybe? ---> June 03, 2020, 04:49:34 PM Reply #35
"...it is human being and
almost for sure it is Tibo..."See also :
b) • He was a human being who was a bit mysterious because he disappeared immediately and just happened to be there.
c) • He was an attacker who was chasing the hikers following the trail left by the hikers. The attackers waited until the hikers had reached a bare slope because they feared that in a forest the hikers could hide behind the trees.
d) • It is not a human being, it is a kind of hypothetical great ape called Yeti. See the
Yeti/Snowman board
Could the attackers escape unobserved by the Mansi people ?
••• The Mansi were few in number and their settlement or camp was located in the north, far from the Dyatlov Pass.
I think it is reasonable to assume that there were
no Mansi in the area around February 1, 1959.they required several days of pursuit, and several days to come back to North2
• The hikers progressed slowly because:
The hikers often advanced through soft, virgin snow and searched for the right route, which slowed them down.
The hikers carried rucksacks that were heavy.
The hilkers were on their holidays and wanted to have fun and rest.
The hilkers wanted to come back from their holidays in good condition to continue their studies, which was important to them.
• On the contrary, the attackers were much faster because :
They were following tracks where
the snow was already packed and they had no need to look for directions. The attackers carried
light rucksacks (containing a birch wood bludgeon and some food).
The attackers considered that their holy duty was to succeed at all costs in their
mission to destroy and exterminate these 9 representatives of the Soviet communist oppression.Below are my estimates for the travel times of the attackers (approximate estimates given as a rough guide)
9 hours to get from North-2 to the tent, because you have to go up in altitude.
6 hours to get from the tent to North-2, because there is a decrease in altitude (higher average speed of skiers) ,
I have two typical versions for the timing, but obviously there are possibly some variations.
•• Hypothesis N°2-A - (attack settled in 2 days: luck favours the attackers).
* February 1st = 7am::departure from North-2 >>> 4pm::arrival at 300 m from the hikers on the slope of Kholat Syakhl >>> 8pm::start of the "altercation" (in fact fight to the death)
* February 2nd = 6am::end of the "altercation" >>> 7am::
return to the tent and rest inside [during 6 hours] >>> 1pm::departure from the tent (before leaving the tent the attackers cut the canvas with a small knife) >>> 7pm:arrival at North-2
•• Hypothesis N°2-B - (attack settled in 4 days: the attackers are slightly wounded but still valid).
* January 31nd = 7am::Departure from North-2 >>> 3pm::Arrival in sight of the hikers (photo N°17??) >>> Night of bivouac (without tent) in the forest under the Dyatlov pass1 * * February 1st = 2pm::start in pursuit of the hikers >>> 5pm arrival at 300 m from the platform under construction on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl >>> 8pm::start of the altercation(in fact fight to the death)
* February 2nd = 6am::end of "the altercation" >>> 7am::back to the tent to rest inside for a longtime because they are very tired and sore :
during 27 hours] * February 3rd =10am::tent departure (before leaving the tent the attackers cut the canvas with a small knife) >>> 7pm:arrival at North-2 (attackers are moving slower )
Some multiple days onto which they could have been spotted.
••• The various police forces in the Soviet Union were sufficiently occupied with surveillance and collecting the information from indicators in cities and towns.
Away from the frontiers, there was very little surveillance of the immensity of the Siberian taiga (except perhaps in the event of a major escape from a Gulag camp in the area of interest).
Topic: Altercation on the pass (Read 115405 times)
